05-09-2005 14:39									#61
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"Some will be so brash to ask if we believe that all who hear Manson tomorrow
night will go out and commit violent acts? The answer is "No!." But does
everybody who watches a Lexus commercial go and buy a Lexus? No. But a few
do!"

Manson: The president was shooting bombs overseas. Yet I'm a bad guy
because I sing some rock-n-roll songs. And who's the bigger influence? The
president or Marilyn Manson?

	05-09-2005 16:29									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Immorality

Yea, I hope I live forever too. What's so controversial about that?

	05-09-2005 20:05									#63
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom I don't believe it is. If a child grows up on the margins, then a game which is designed to be extremely attractive, and can be played by one person for hours at a time, and which shows violence against the person and property glorified, and theft rewarded, must exert a degree of influence on an impressionable child. If there is no other model of more acceptable behaviour being inculcated or demonstrated, then how does that child learn which is better ? The behaviour from their frequently solitary games, where to succeed you are more violent, or more rapacious than your opponent ? Or a more socially acceptable, less predatory form of behaviour ? I suggest instead of your model of a not quite diabetic cetacean, a rat being fed endorphins instead.

Unfortunately there are zero statistics to back up any of your claims.

If such a child is so close to the margins, if not violent video games, something else will push them over the edge, so to speak.

And even assuming you are true. What is your solution? A video game police? Do we treat video games like alcohol and tobacco? The Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco Firearms and Video Games? Do we lock parents up if their children get ahold of violent video games?

This whole discussion is rather silly. And molly, for someone who is extremely intelligent, I expect a little more sense out of you. Look at the primary demographic of violent video game players. White, middle class males from the ages of 14-28. Now according to the reasoning of the "anti-violent-video-game" lobby, this group should be the most violent, vicious group of people in the world. But yet, take a tour of our prisons, and you will not find many people from that background.

How do you argue against facts like this?

Take one of my favorite games "Counter-Strike", for instance. This is one of the most violent games ever made. But if you were to compare Counter-Strike players against the general population, I have no doubt you would find violent crime statistics to be much lower among Counter-Strike players.

This whole issue offends me very much. Not because I play and enjoy such games, but because it distracts people from the real issues involving violence and crime. Violent video games are not a significant cause of violence. PERIOD.

	05-09-2005 20:19									#64
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As for the real world, there is a study called "Firearm Violence Exposure and Serious Violent Behavior"

Abstract:
To estimate the cause-effect relationship between exposure to firearm violence and subsequent perpetration of serious violence, we applied the analytic method of propensity stratification to longitudinal data on adolescents residing in Chicago, Illinois. Results indicate that exposure to firearm violence approximately doubles the probability that an adolescent will perpetrate serious
violence over the subsequent 2 years.

quote: This whole issue offends me very much. Not because I play and enjoy such games, but because it distracts people from the real issues involving violence and crime. Violent video games are not a significant cause of violence. PERIOD.

If you'd argue by your own standards, there are zero statistics to back up YOUR claim.

	05-09-2005 20:28									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa If you'd argue by your own standards, there are zero statistics to back up YOUR claim.

not true... I just am too lazy to post them

from DOJ website

Total Violent Crime



Notice the dropoff during the 90's... hmmmm the era of violent video games, yet violent crime is dropping


I don't have official DOJ statistics on prison populations, but unless anyone is contesting it, I think we can all agree, the primary demographic of video game players is white male age 14-28... that is not the main violent crime offender.

	05-09-2005 21:00									#66
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Wrong Sava, violent crime went down because there were less vicitimizations reported to the police

	05-09-2005 21:01									#67
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games don't kill people. People kill people.

	05-09-2005 21:02									#68
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the question is wether games incite people to kill people

	05-09-2005 21:05									#69
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do guns make people kill people? What about rock music? What about when gf breaks up with you? How about when some dude disses you because of the car you drive?

Such is life. Let's move on.

	06-09-2005 04:35									#70
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quote: games don't kill people. People kill people.

What if you used the CD for a violent game to kill people?

	06-09-2005 06:40									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen GTA is not going to send you on a killing spree, video games don't turn you into killers. Crappy parents, usually turn you into serial killers. A game where you play the role of a thief and a murderer and they glorify and try to justify his actions amoung his peers as socially acceptable, *IS* harmfull for impressionable children.

Hence children shouldn't be playing it. Oh look, they're not supposed to be, as the game is meant for adults. I don't see why my ability to engage in senseless, immoral virtual mayhem should be hindered because of puritanical "won't someone PLEASE think of the children?!" hysteria.

	06-09-2005 14:42									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Sava And molly, for someone who is extremely intelligent, I expect a little more sense out of you. Violent video games are not a significant cause of violence. PERIOD.

Well, I never expect any from you, so I'm rarely disappointed, dear.


I haven't asserted in my posts that violent video games are a significant cause of violence. That's a figment of your over-active GTA stimulated imagination.


I said that they exert an influence. Can you tell the difference, Sava ?


Tell me if there is no rise in pulse rate, or blood pressure, or change in hormone levels, or brainwave activity during a video game.

Aren't they meant to be attractive, somewhat addictive, so that you'll play longer, more often, get a buzz from playing them ?

Certainly judging from the behaviour of Poly posters people have missed meals and played games for hour after hour- and in some cases we're talking about responsible adults...



Next you'll be telling us there's no correlation between poverty and crime either.

	06-09-2005 15:45									#73
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Ah yes... nice back track.

"exert an influence"

I like how you worded that in such in an ambiguous way. No doubt, the mass of a fly here on Earth exerts some 'influence' on the moon's gravitational pull in much the same manner.

What was the analogy you used?

Feeding a rat endorphins?

quote: Next you'll be telling us there's no correlation between poverty and crime either.

hilarious, considering one of my main points is that poverty is a bigger concern regarding crime than violent video games...

	06-09-2005 16:31									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Ah yes... nice back track. "exert an influence"

No back track at all. I'm just quoting my own posts.


You're the one inventing and implying things I haven't said.


Find in my posts where I said that video games were a , how did you put it:

quote: ... significant cause of violence.

You can't, because I didn't say it.

I also put repetitive concentrated exposure to particular games into a context, too.

Sorry to disappoint you, Sava, but I'm not Tipper Gore.

quote: I like how you worded that in such in an ambiguous way.

I fail to see what's ambiguous about that- 'exert an influence' means what it says.

But if you do like my wording, why not use it, rather than misconstrue it ?

	06-09-2005 17:19									#75
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Okay then.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you post.

I'm glad to see you think I'm right.

	06-09-2005 17:27									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Okay then. Sorry if I misinterpreted you post.

That would be acceptable- you could have left off the lame rejoinder at the end though.

It just looks immature...

	06-09-2005 17:46									#78
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How did you put it ?

quote: I expect a little more sense out of you.

And I replied:

quote: Well, I never expect any from you, so I'm rarely disappointed, dear.

Consider me not disappointed, then.

	06-09-2005 18:14									#79
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Consider me not disappointed, then.

Well. Your disappointment is not my concern.

Considering you would be "not disappointed" whether I have sense or not, your being "not disappointed" does not speak to whether or I have sense or not.


Food for thought.

The important thing being. I am right. As usual.

	06-09-2005 18:35									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Bill3000 Even though it is Adults Only, and as such cannot be purchased for the intent of letting anyone under 18 play?

It was rated M before "hot coffee" and will be rated M again when they clean that up.

Of course M games are not supposed to be available to under 17. But surveys have showed a HUGE proportion of under 17, and even preteen, boys, have played it. Why and how this occurs is a matter of some debate.

	06-09-2005 18:40									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa the question is wether games incite people to kill people

No. the focus on games causing shooting sprees, is on the one hand, a gimmick for certain lawyers, and on the other hand, a great strawman for the games do no harm school of thought. As UR has pointed out, there is significant evidence that certain violent games DO make people feel more aggressive (and yes, the studies arent perfect, but are about the best that can be done in scientific, controlled circumstances) . This can, potentilally be expressed in many ways, including bullying, verbal aggression, etc. Or it can even be turned inward, in depression.

	06-09-2005 18:42									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Do we lock parents up if their children get ahold of violent video games? .

How about if we start, by making parents who let their kids play extremely violent games, be as socially ostracized as parents who let their kids watch pornography would be?

	06-09-2005 18:54									#83
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark How about if we start, by making parents who let their kids play extremely violent games, be as socially ostracized as parents who let their kids watch pornography would be?

Okay, let's not invite them to our tea parties!

	07-09-2005 03:32									#84
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There's a graph in this month's Computer Gaming World which shows violent crime going down even as the sales of these types of games increase.

	07-09-2005 18:06									#85
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's a graph in this month's Computer Gaming World which shows violent crime going down even as the sales of these types of games increase.

Membership in labor unions has gone down, even when union expenditures on organizing drives has increased. This proves that organizing drives are unrelated to union membership. Your assignment is to explain why this is a fallacy.

If you dont like that example try this - the population of the globe increased dramatically during the first half of the 20th century, even while the casualties from wars increased. Ergo, casualties from wars do not impact population.

	07-09-2005 18:09									#86
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's a graph in this month's Computer Gaming World which shows violent crime going down even as the sales of these types of games increase.

IIUC gun ownership increased over the same period. As did income inequality in the US. Which would show that neither of these cause violent crime, either.


Im not saying that video games DO cause violent crime - but the kind of reasoning in tht mag, and used by some here, is fallacious. X can cause Y, and yet X can increase while Y is decreasing. Because X causes Y does NOT imply that X is the only thing that causes Y.

	07-09-2005 18:36									#87
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's a graph in this month's Computer Gaming World which shows violent crime going down even as the sales of these types of games increase.

Perhaps because the sales of white goods increased.


It's an easy game to play- 'Hey!' says Bigot A, 'We have more crime, and immigration increased!' making a causal link where none is necessarily found.


The Yorkshire Ripper claimed part of his fascination with killing women had roots in a Victorian end of pier educational style exhibition which showed dummies with their innards exposed.


Presumably hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people could have seen that exhibition and not been tempted to kill any number of women.

Another murderer placed his kill fantasies as beginning in his strict Plymouth Brethren upbringing.

quote: Considering you would be "not disappointed" whether I have sense or not, your being "not disappointed" does not speak to whether or I have sense or not.

Sava


Of course not dear, and neither does the content your posts.

	07-09-2005 18:41									#88
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Pot. Kettle. Black.

	07-09-2005 19:29									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Pot. Kettle. Black.

If you try very hard, and perhaps put in the required amount of study, you'll be able to join those words with others and fashion a whole sentence.


Then after more study, you can perhaps write a sentence that also makes sense.


Something to aim for, eh ?


Then who knows ? Whole paragraphs !!!

	07-09-2005 19:39									#90
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Never go up against a gay man in a ***** fight.