14-09-2005 18:48									#181
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quote: The next question that comes to mind is "why?"

We went over this earlier in the thread. Didn't you read it? The reason it happens is because at this point in the business cycle, our economy doesn't bring people out of poverty at a high rate. This is no different than what was happening at this point in the last business cycle (during Clinton's tenure).

	14-09-2005 18:56									#182
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quote: $600.00

I live in a two bedroom downtown apartment in one of the best places in Norfolk (Freemason) for $800 a month. I could be renting a 4 bedroom house with a garage and huge yard in VA Beach in a reasonable neighboorhood (excellent schools for $450 a month. Of course we are basing this off a family of three, so I only need two or three bedrooms, even less. You either live in an expensive place, in which the poverty line doesn't accuratly represent you, or you have expensive tastes.

$170 on food is ridiculously high a month, my mother fed her family of four on $250 a month and we ate well. Buy the bag cereal instead of the boxed. I as a single twenty something who eats out two/three times a week spends maybe $100 a month on food. I would spend far less if I could buy/prepare food in bulk. As it is half my food goes bad before I get too it.

quote: $100.00 electricity

Again depending on where you live. I spend $40 a month to power a two bedroom apartment with myraid electronics. I don't use air conditioning by choice, and not having air conditioning hardly makes you poor.

quote: $90.00 gas minimum

If you use it for heating, us Southerners don't need it much. average gase bill $18! But assuming you mean gasoline, then together $90

quote: $91.00 car insurance

Don't forget car payments. But the payment on my 85 Cutless Supreme may run be a total (insurance together) $150.

quote: $1051.00 for $937.50 take home. I still haven't paid my telephone, cable or had any entertainment. I haven't even drank a beer.

Not having cable or being able to drink beer does not make you poor. Actually, it is probobly what might push you over the edge to poor, and a case of it being your fault.

Telephone bill, $25 for the basic cell phone plan with free phone.

So me, as a twenty something living the high life, assuming I lived in a three bedroom suburban rental house and had a servicable if not attractive care, runs me $800 a month. All my basic services. I am sure there are plenty of other bills that some people have to pay, primarily heathcare for the old or those with young children.

But in any case it shows it matters where you live.

And I do this for a job. So many young stupid sailors come to me because they are being hounded by debters and I sit down with them and go over their finances. There are so many things alot of people do that just throws money out the window. Clothing, CABLE, and cars are the worst culprits.

	14-09-2005 19:05									#183
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quote: That's nice, but we aren't talking about the military. Thanks

Hanging your head in defeat, excellent.

Those are the governments estimations of the cost of living. Do you deny that your dollar goes twice as far in Jacksonville than in Norfolk?

Thought not. You just got rocked. Your poverty line is crap.

	14-09-2005 20:06									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I live in a two bedroom downtown apartment in one of the best places in Norfolk (Freemason) for $800 a month. I could be renting a 4 bedroom house with a garage and huge yard in VA Beach in a reasonable neighboorhood (excellent schools for $450 a month. Of course we are basing this off a family of three, so I only need two or three bedrooms, even less. You either live in an expensive place, in which the poverty line doesn't accuratly represent you, or you have expensive tastes. $170 on food is ridiculously high a month, my mother fed her family of four on $250 a month and we ate well. Buy the bag cereal instead of the boxed. I as a single twenty something who eats out two/three times a week spends maybe $100 a month on food. I would spend far less if I could buy/prepare food in bulk. As it is half my food goes bad before I get too it. Again depending on where you live. I spend $40 a month to power a two bedroom apartment with myraid electronics. I don't use air conditioning by choice, and not having air conditioning hardly makes you poor. If you use it for heating, us Southerners don't need it much. average gase bill $18! But assuming you mean gasoline, then together $90 Don't forget car payments. But the payment on my 85 Cutless Supreme may run be a total (insurance together) $150. Not having cable or being able to drink beer does not make you poor. Actually, it is probobly what might push you over the edge to poor, and a case of it being your fault. Telephone bill, $25 for the basic cell phone plan with free phone. So me, as a twenty something living the high life, assuming I lived in a three bedroom suburban rental house and had a servicable if not attractive care, runs me $800 a month. All my basic services. I am sure there are plenty of other bills that some people have to pay, primarily heathcare for the old or those with young children. But in any case it shows it matters where you live. And I do this for a job. So many young stupid sailors come to me because they are being hounded by debters and I sit down with them and go over their finances. There are so many things alot of people do that just throws money out the window. Clothing, CABLE, and cars are the worst culprits.

Expensive tastes! Beans and chicken. No steak or cereal allowed in that figure. Cereal is expensive. $170.00 is not ridiculously high. I included in that figure the various sundries, toiletries, cleaners, soap and things of that nature.

I know the south has a cheaper cost of living. In Tennessee for instance, electricity is ridiculously cheap. A quick question do you do most of your food shopping at the commisary? That will save you a bundle. Shopping at the PX or exchange will save you a bunch on clothes too. Civilians don't have that luxury.

I forgot clothing costs too. I know in the military, your clothing costs are restricted to cleaning bills mostly, but in the civilian world, if you don't dress appropriately at your job, including regular haircuts, you don't get good reviews. Again that doesn't mean Ralph Lauren outfits, but clothes are expensive.

I just checked the paper and the lowest rent available was $665.00. Renting a good place will cost you a minimum of $800 per month.

I was talking about gasoline, but I forgot about the natural gas bill. That's another $30. Much more in the winter. Heating oil can run $200.00 a month or more lately.

$100.00 electricity was without AC. With AC we are talking $190.00 to $220.00.

I even forgot to mention health insurance. That's another $125.00 per month or so.

I forgot the telephone too. I hate it, but that's another $25.00. That's without any long distance calls. I don't have a cell phone, but that's another $50.00.

I forgot car payments. My car is paid off. That's a another $100.00 to $400.00 depending on the car and down payment.

I am sure that I forgot a major bill or two and a bunch of other nickel and dime items and those add up too.

I mentioned cable and beer, because a US citizen is not supposed to live like a prisoner on parole. I don't know how you live your life, but I don't live like a monk or a puritan. Even prisoners get their TV privileges.

(These figures are for one person in the Wilmington, DE area.)

	14-09-2005 20:16									#185
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Moses

You in Wilimington?

What part, near Trolley square?

	14-09-2005 21:11									#186
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No, I'm in New Castle actually, just outside of Wilmington. You are from Wilmington originally aren't you? How's Georgia? Is it expensive there? I used to have to live like what I posted above, but now I have a wife and a house.

We are just scraping by as it takes two incomes and there is only one right now. I recently lost my last job. That's why I am posting so much, I need to find a new job and fast.

In fact I'm getting ready to go to the county building to drop off an application and resume.

Trolley Square is a little too expensive for me.

	14-09-2005 21:20									#187
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Trolley Square 1BR, hardwood floors, deck, d/w, w/d, ht/w incl no pets $900

	14-09-2005 21:21									#188
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Rents are actually going down a bit due to the housing boom.

	14-09-2005 21:27									#189
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Cancel your internet, a luxury, and save another $30 dollars a month.

Not having cable does not equal living like a monk. There are a good 10 channels you can get free depending on where you live.

If you consider beer a vital component of your happiness, you have other problems besides thinking your poor because of it.

These are all things people waste their money on and then come to me because they can't get their kids eyeglasses.

	14-09-2005 21:46									#190
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The financial listing I portrayed was not about me. I have a different set of payments and obligations and they are currently being met.

There is nothing wrong with having a beer now and then. I rarely drink, but the poor people that I hang with, and they are living in poverty, like some beer to help their situation go down a little easier.

	14-09-2005 21:52									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Cancel your internet, a luxury, and save another $30 dollars a month.

Internet is no longer a luxury. It is almost impossible to find a job without it anymore. Most of the potential employers I go to don't accept applications any longer. Their human resources department always say "you need to go to our website."

	14-09-2005 22:09									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Hanging your head in defeat, excellent. Those are the governments estimations of the cost of living. Do you deny that your dollar goes twice as far in Jacksonville than in Norfolk? Thought not. You just got rocked. Your poverty line is crap.

That is absolutley irrelevent, it's similar to the law of diminishing returns. Once you've reached a rock bottom level, the variations in dollars are pretty much pointless.

1 million people have less dollars, across the board.

The cost of living adjustments only make a minor impact in the overall trend. Since 15K can't take care of ANYONE, regardless of their location, that just tells me that people in those expensive places are hurting even more.

You can throw ice cubes into water that's 180 degrees, or 200 degrees, but it's still gonna melt. Once you reach a certain point, the exact temperature doesn't really matter.

15K doesn't buy anyone sh1t, unless you're a single college student, and that's really about it.

	14-09-2005 22:13									#193
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quote: Originally posted by MosesPresley No, I'm in New Castle actually, just outside of Wilmington. You are from Wilmington originally aren't you? How's Georgia? Is it expensive there? I used to have to live like what I posted above, but now I have a wife and a house. We are just scraping by as it takes two incomes and there is only one right now. I recently lost my last job. That's why I am posting so much, I need to find a new job and fast. In fact I'm getting ready to go to the county building to drop off an application and resume. Trolley Square is a little too expensive for me.

I used to live in Newark initially. Rent was about $450 for a roach infested 2 bedroom.

Saved up cashed in my 401k and bought a 2BR townhouse near Goldie Beacom college in Pike Creek area. Got married bought a 3 bedroom cape cod house in Pike creek.

Georgia is a bit strange anything near Atlanta and the perimeter gets pricey real quick. Further out it gets more reasonable fairly quickly. Similar to Delaware IIRC as i was leaving south of the canal was reasonable while anything north was in relatively high demand. I tend to look for older (16 + yr) houses as my perception is you get ripped off real quickly when buying new construction. We chose our area primarily for school systems ( the best of the worst in the nation ) and settled for an older home.

By the way, good luck finding a job. Is Astra Zeneca still posting jobs?

	14-09-2005 22:24									#194
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Below the canal is much cheaper as long as you stay away from Middletown, but there are still some deals there too.

Pike Creek is such a nice area. That's where my parents live. I tried to find a place there, but I couldn't afford it. Maybe if I can find a decent job.

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe By the way, good luck finding a job. Is Astra Zeneca still posting jobs?

Thank you.

Astra Zeneca, good call. I forgot about them. I better hit them today. Gotta run. I've wasted too much time already.

	14-09-2005 23:26									#195
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quote: That is absolutley irrelevent, it's similar to the law of diminishing returns. Once you've reached a rock bottom level, the variations in dollars are pretty much pointless.

Then prove it, so far all you can say is "15,000 is poor because I said so," Even though 15,000 in San Fansico is 30,000-60,000 in Cimarron NM. It is simple math Ted, and you have failed to understand it.

Your callous disregard for peoples actual situation is sick.

	14-09-2005 23:55									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Those are the governments estimations of the cost of living. Do you deny that your dollar goes twice as far in Jacksonville than in Norfolk?

Well, it's nice that the military is socialist minded, but the rest of the government isn't.

	14-09-2005 23:56									#197
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quote: Originally posted by MosesPresley Rents are actually going down a bit due to the housing boom.

Not so I've noticed.

	15-09-2005 00:10									#198
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quote: Well, it's nice that the military is socialist minded, but the rest of the government isn't.

All I am really saying is that the current tool is bogus, and any person with a rudamentray understanding of statistics or even basic math can see why.

And it isn't so much that it is making some people look poor when they aren't that should make Ted see the light, but the fact that it makes alot of people officially NOT poor when they really are.

	15-09-2005 00:30									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Then prove it, so far all you can say is "15,000 is poor because I said so," Even though 15,000 in San Fansico is 30,000-60,000 in Cimarron NM. It is simple math Ted, and you have failed to understand it.

It's so simple you can't decide if your number is 30K or 60K. But it's simple math.

In terms you can understand, 15K is universal suckage. Because I said so, and because most people with common sense who have actually had life experience say so.

quote: Your callous disregard for peoples actual situation is sick.

Nice reverse projection there.


Thanks

	15-09-2005 00:37									#200
	Got spare money?

By the way, here's a nice number I just found.

Since 2000, the number of people below the poverty line has increased by 5 million people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Povert...e_United_States

They probably all live in rural Ohio where 15K in San Francsico dollars actually equals 100K OR 1 million dollars!!! So they don't really count!!!

	15-09-2005 00:45									#201
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Playa has become surreally daft. Sad, really.

	15-09-2005 00:55									#203
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If any one wants to talk about basic math Try this out for size 15000 a year. Try dividibg that by 26 the number of bi weekly pay checks a person will get in that year. thats 1150 month my rent in texas was 650 for a two bedroom apartment i had 3 kids and no husband. Thats 500 left for electricity whch averaged 120 a month thats with I had a 200 dollar car paymment on a clunker my phone was 30 bucks I didnt have cable. I paid a lady down the way to care for the kidsnot a day care . That leaves 150 a month to feed 3 kids and my self. But wait I have not paid for all my day care, my car insurance, or got the kids school supplies clothes shoes. If you think 150 a month for food for three kids is enough your wrong. Oh but wait I havent paid for the insurance preuims on my kids medical Oh gee but i see how one can live on 15000 a year

	15-09-2005 00:59									#204
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My figures didnt even include the funds for monthly medications my kid needed for asthma and or god for bid they caught a cold.

	15-09-2005 01:14									#205
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quote: It's so simple you can't decide if your number is 30K or 60K. But it's simple math

Since you have proven incapable of understanding math, I see little reason to replicate it here after doing if for you on the last page. Incidently, providing the lower figure was to make you look less retarded, alas to no avail.

quote: Since 2000, the number of people below the poverty line has increased by 5 million people.

What was the population increase in the same year?

And from you own damn source.

quote: In the United States, official statistics on poverty and the official poverty line are kept by the US Census Bureau. Other federal and state agencies, however, use other definitions of poverty, for example, to do means testing for welfare programs.

Because your line makes no damn sense and isn't good for any practical purpose. Why not read your source next time.

Teds self pwnage

quote: hey probably all live in rural Ohio where 15K in San Francsico dollars actually equals 100K OR 1 million dollars!!! So they don't really count!!!

And the five million people making 16,000 dollars living in San Diego, Boston, and Hartford paying three times the housing costs are just cozy middle class suburbanites right? Becasue your magic line says so right?

This is really getting ugly for you, just bow out now before you hurt youself.

quote: My figures didnt even include the funds for monthly medications my kid needed for asthma and or god for bid they caught a cold.

What does any of that have to do with whether the cost of living is dramatically different in different parts of the country?

We are not debating whether your personal experiance makes your poor, I already said that the actual characteristics of your life is what counts. Ted thinks it doesn't matter, and rather you are just the sum of a number he made up in his head, or in this case a number he agrees with.

	15-09-2005 01:29									#206
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i wasnt arguing the cost of living, I have been however arguing that 15000 a year might be fineif you are on person but it doesnt go very far if you are 3 or more people. My personal experiences have only to do with i am not nor will i be the last to be living like that. Most foks now days live pay check to pay check. Most paychecks dont even cover the monthly expenses. So hence you find your self getting ur utilities cut off or no food at the end of the month or having to do with out medications necessary to live. I am sure the economists that come up with these figures would disagree that most folks live a comfortable life. When indeed they do not. Maybe i am misunderstanding what you are saying but i dont think so. Those folks tryin to raise a family on 14000 a year are usually going with out a few items in their lives. Mostly healthhcare and food.

	15-09-2005 01:38									#207
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quote: So hence you find your self getting ur utilities cut off or no food at the end of the month or having to do with out medications necessary to live.

Those people are far beyond being below the poverty line. Are you suggesting that the majority of people below the poverty line are living without power and water, starving to death, and dieing of a quickly deteriorating illness?

No, they are people with just enough to get the basic needs of life or better for the most part. If not, then the figure would be decreasing for obvious reasons. Obvioulsy you did not starve to death in those years Mrs. Tub. To me the poor, the ones that deserve the government help and charity, are the ones who can't meet those basics. Now we can argue all day about what those basics are, but it does not make picking $15,000 and applying it 250,000,000 people over hundresds of thousands of square miles a good way of identifying who is whithout.

And this is why nobody uses the poverty line for anything but trolling internet threads, especially government agencies and charities.

	15-09-2005 01:49									#208
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No i didnt starve i already said i went to the catholic charties and food banks. I think that number you are arguing about is based on the folks that are making that amount and is applied as a basis to each household that isnt making it on that amount. Not by what you or i deem what the basics for each indvidual are. You insist on stating the basics are the bare minium to survive, Well look at what those are, food shelter toilteries for some working parents child care medications are just a top of the list I do find it easier to have elecricity to survive so yes that fals in ur basics. Now granted beans and rice will feed ur family but i can guarantee they are not getting the proper nutrition they need.

	15-09-2005 01:52									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos What was the population increase in the same year?

Doesn't matter, look at the percentage, because, it was up too. Nice try though.


Here's your problem:

Even with cost of living adjustments factored in, those factors were available in the past 5 years as well. They don't matter. They've been in place but have no affect on the overall trend line, which has been, more people, in sheer numbers, and as a percentage, are in poverty.

Bottom line: More people at the lower end of the income scale have less money than they did before. If you want to classify them as "poor" or "unpoor," it doesn't change that trend.

That's the entire purpose of the Poverty Rate, to identify the overall trend.

Thanks champ.

	15-09-2005 01:58									#210
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quote: Even with cost of living adjustments factored in, those factors were available in the past 5 years as well.They've been in place but have no affect on the overall trend line, which has been, more people, in sheer numbers, and as a percentage, are in poverty.

And were not used, and are still not being used, to create a poverty line. The poverty line is a straight 15,000 everywhere with no modifiers. By the very nature of what the poverty line currently is, they are not factored in. Why are defending something that so grossly misrepresents a problem you obviously care about?

quote: Bottom line: More people at the lower end of the income scale have less money than they did before. If you want to classify them as "poor" or "unpoor," it doesn't change that trend.

Which is not your position, but it is a less then humble attempt to say you were wrong without actually doing so.

Welcome to the light