19-09-2005 00:13									#31
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This means....because of idiotic system in germany....the spd could have more seats than the CDU/CSU.

	19-09-2005 00:16									#32
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Schroeder is social democrat right?

What does the FDP stand for? (actually what do any of them stand for?)

	19-09-2005 00:18									#33
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"I'm surprised that you're willing to forgive Schroeder's long list of failures for one largely irrelevant success."

The list of his failures.....well I think Schroeders agenda 2010 is ok. The failure was that there was a too long discussion with left wing of his party. They left now.

CDU thought they could profit from this situation (they won a lot of laender because there were no "Linke" in western germany) and used the Bundesrat to oppose most proposals.

	19-09-2005 00:20									#34
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The FDP is the Free Democrat Party. The liberals, which has somewhat of an analog in the GOP coalition here in the States. If I were in Germany, I probably would be a member of the FDP.

quote: For now they do the usual game -- each side claims victory.

This is a strange ritual for an American. Each side claiming victory has happened very rarely here.

	19-09-2005 00:21									#35
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The FDP is the Free Democrat Party. The liberals, which has somewhat of an analog in the GOP coalition here in the States.

Oh, then what about the conservatives then?

	19-09-2005 00:22									#36
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Schroeder is social democrat right?

Yep.

quote: What does the FDP stand for? (actually what do any of them stand for?)

They call themselves liberals, so theoretically they're for free market and civil rights. In praxis they seem to care mainly about economic issues and less about the rights thing (although some individual party members/politicians there do without doubt).

They have certainly an image problem here, since many see them as nothing more than a lobby group for certain businesses without competence for social issues.

	19-09-2005 00:26									#37
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quote: Originally posted by siron "I'm surprised that you're willing to forgive Schroeder's long list of failures for one largely irrelevant success." The list of his failures.....well I think Schroeders agenda 2010 is ok. The failure was that there was a too long discussion with left wing of his party. They left now. CDU thought they could profit from this situation (they won a lot of laender because there were no "Linke" in western germany) and used the Bundesrat to oppose most proposals.

These are pretty bad results. Germany needs a lot more reforms and now they will stall even more. Germany needs a Hartz V,VI,VII,VIII all the way to X and beyond.

	19-09-2005 00:27									#38
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Oh, then what about the conservatives then?

They are - compared to the FDP more "Christian", but moderately. The main difference is that the conservatives from the CDU are technically a "catch-all party" (like the SPD, which is cener-left, while the CDU is center-right) which appeals to large and diverse parts of the population, while the FDP is rather a small party mainly for certain limited groups.

	19-09-2005 00:28									#39
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After reading a bit on wikipedia, I like the FDP.

"So viel Staat wie nötig, so wenig Staat wie möglich!"

	19-09-2005 00:35									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This is a strange ritual for an American. Each side claiming victory has happened very rarely here.

Well, to be more accurate, it doesn't happen often here, certainly not when the differences between the parties are more clear, but when you have such close results it is quite common.

	19-09-2005 00:42									#41
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The German Parties for Dummies:

DieLinke.PDS (left wing radicals) - Grüne (left/green) - FDP (liberals/capitalists) - SPD (center left) - CDU/CSU (center right)

The government up to today:

SPD + Grüne vs. CDU/CSU + FDP; PDS not included as a party (but with three MPs)

The Parties:

DieLinke.PDS
Created in July 2005 through the merge of the PDS ("Partei Deutscher Sozialisten"; successor of the Eastern German Communist Party) and the WASG ("Wahlalternative für soziale Gerechtigkeit" / "non-mainstream-party for social justice"; far left splinter group of the SPD).
Their heads are the Eastern German rhetoric genius Gregor Gysi and the Western German former-SPD rogue politician Oskar Lafontaine. Both men draw much attention especially from the lower classes, while the party´s program has serious financing problems.
Oskar Lafontaine is regarded as a traitor by most SPD politicians, while the former PDS was shunned by CDU/CSU and FDP because of their Communist history.

Bündnis '90 - Die Grünen
They are the ecologists; Their head of party is the German minister of foreign affairs Joschka Fischer, who was the big winner of the 2002 elections (the people like him for his natural style).
Because of the "ecology tax" on petrol/gas they have lost much of their support from the common people.

FDP
Known as the "Freie Demokratische Partei" / "Free Democratic Party", most of their press coverage comes from scandals. The head of party, Guido Westerwelle, was formerly known as the "Fun Guido" who toured the Republic in his "Guidomobil"... In 2002 they achieved the most miserable result in decades, so their focus has somewhat changed to domestic policies.
With their criticism of the Social Security system and the many subsidies they alienated many commoners, which is probably why they cannot seem to get above 10%...

SPD
As the left of the two main parties, the "Sozialdemokratische Partei Deutschlands" is seen as the party of the workers. Chancellor Gerhard Schröder is quite popular with the common people, despite the many protests against his social reforms. Especially the reformation of the unemployment relief system (known as "Hartz IV") was a PR desaster. On the other hand he did not bow to President Bush during the war on Iraq which earned him much respect and favour.

CDU/CSU
Also known as the Union, this party is the more conservative of the two main parties. The abbreviation stands for "Christlich Demokratische Union / Christlich Soziale Union" (Christian Democratic/Social Union); It is a combination of the large CDU party and her Southern German "sister" CSU.
Their respective heads Angela Merkel ("The Merkel") and Edmund Stoiber are both well-known key figures of the opposition; Both have "lost" their TV-duels against Chancellor Schröder due to their inferior rhetoric capabilities...
Recently the Union has lost about 7% in the polls because of the nomination of Paul Kirchhof for the post of minister of treasury, who has then come up with the proposal of raising the VAT...

Last edited by Micha on 19-09-2005 at 01:18

	19-09-2005 00:45									#42
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A big win for the capitalist vanguard!!!

	19-09-2005 00:46									#43
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, I guess this means the end for Schroeder, right? Who picks the chancellor? Does the chancellor then ask the party with the highest number of votes to form a gov't?

The end of Schroeder!? And this point not very likely because there's also a Red-Green-(Red) option: greens + SPD + (Linkspartei) (directly or by giving implicit support) with Schroeder as chancellor, rejoicing in his "confirmation" from the public, with Fischer et al keeping their jobs.

In the event that the Linkspartei does join (there's a lot of show going on between Lafontaine and Schroeder IMO) they'll give the economics and employment ministry to Lafontaine and co to keep them busy and to have someone to blame when the economy doesn't perform better.

	19-09-2005 00:48									#44
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The German economy's going back in the crapper (an unfortunate habit under the incompetence of Schroeder), so you're right that Schroeder would need a whipping boy.

	19-09-2005 00:51									#45
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Schroeder refuses to ally with Die Linke.. that´s very very messy

	19-09-2005 00:52									#46
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"In the event that the Linkspartei does join (there's a lot of show going on between Lafontaine and Schroeder IMO)"

This will never happen.

	19-09-2005 00:52									#47
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Yes, I'm afraid the next 4 years won't amount to much.

Very bad for Germany and bad for Europe in general.

	19-09-2005 00:53									#48
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quote: Originally posted by siron "In the event that the Linkspartei does join (there's a lot of show going on between Lafontaine and Schroeder IMO)" This will never happen.

Given Schroeder's track record. Why do you think that will NOT happen?

	19-09-2005 00:55									#49
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We have now some reports that the SPD might have overtaken the CDU.

Cap, Lafontaine will play no role in any Schroeder new government (if we indeed get one), since he was minister in Schroeder's first cabinet, and had lots of trouble with Schroeder - he left the gov, and since then both are personal enemies. Some journalists here believe that his comeback in politics with the leftist party (he was completely out of business in the years before) has a lot to do with these personal hostilities.

However, the Linkspartei simply isn't accepted here by any of the other parties, so even without the Schroeder-Lafontaine problem there wouldn't be much chances that they get involved somehow in the government, or that the others would form a minority gov to be tolerated by the Linke. This happens in some regional govs, but it is next to impossible on the national level.

	19-09-2005 00:59									#50
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He hates Lafontaine.

The right-wing media calls Schroeder an opportunist.

The right-wing media wrote that he would send troops to iraq after he is reelected.

His necessary agenda2010 almost destroyed the SPD. He lost almost all Laender.

He is convinced that these are the right steps. Thats not opportunism.

	19-09-2005 01:01									#51
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Both the CDU/CSU and SPD claimed to start talks with everyone except the Linke.
Even the green said they'd be open to all options, but I highly doubt we'll see the "Schwarze Ampel" Black-Yellow-Green.

But this is probably all hiding the fact that the only viable way is a grand coalition or minority government, which will probably not exist for very long.

	19-09-2005 01:02									#52
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quote: Originally posted by VJ Is there any link to a site which has the votes cast state-by-state? I've heard the division of East and West is still very obvious.

(west-Deutschland= Western Germany, Ost-Deutschland =former DDR)

	19-09-2005 01:04									#53
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JHC, the east's politics are FUBAR.

When do the official counts start rolling in?

	19-09-2005 01:06									#54
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Basically, I think a red-green-red option makes the most sense politically. Despite it being a minority coalition they could get implicit support from the Links partei..and presto!

The FDP perhaps? I think that the FDP would be cutting it's throat with it's voter base if it joined the current red/green coalition. Sure, they could get a few ministerial posts in this government, but they would lose half their vote in the next election--there are way too many people who voted FDP that would think that joining the current coalition would be too big a sell-out to bear.

With such a setup, don't except much reform to get through.

	19-09-2005 01:07									#55
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quote: Originally posted by DanS JHC, the east's politics are FUBAR. When do the official counts start rolling in?

By this time, I wouldn't expect the final results to differ much from what is being reported now.

	19-09-2005 01:09									#56
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I don't think Merkel should become Chancellor. She's personally less popular than Schröder and she also failed to prove herself during the campaign.

	19-09-2005 01:11									#57
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Crazy east germans.

	19-09-2005 01:27									#58
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Crazy east germans.

Hey, I´m one of these myself ...

It´s easy to say "Schröder messed up the economy", but in fact the Conservatives have ruled for 16 years before Schröder and left many problems for him to solve.
I think the only real chance for boosting the economy would be a FDP government, but that would mean the dismantling of the social security net which is a big no-no with more than two third of the Germans. That´s why the FDP doesn´t get that many votes IMO.

	19-09-2005 01:28									#59
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quote: Originally posted by siron He hates Lafontaine.

Politicians hate each other lot but they seem remarkable good at hug-and-be-friends-again

quote: The right-wing media calls Schroeder an opportunist.

Yes, it's all the fault of the damn "Right-wing media" You don't know how funny that sounds.

quote: The right-wing media wrote that he would send troops to iraq after he is reelected.

Well Afghanistan, but what's in a name?

quote: His necessary agenda2010 almost destroyed the SPD. He lost almost all Laender.

He waited 7 years and even then the reforms were quickly watered down. (Reform wise Germany is were the Netherlands used to be in the 80's.)

quote: He is convinced that these are the right steps. Thats not opportunism.

No, at the end of his rope with almost 5 million unemployed* which wasn't going down he suddenly realized he had to actually make some "right steps".




*On a positive note German unemployment will/should come down in the coming years (around 2010) but that's due to the German babyboomer generation leaving the workforce in large numbers. The Reforms themselves don't have much impact on the demography but without more Rentenreform and due to to the PAYG system it 's going to be hard on the generation that's entering the workforce right now.

	19-09-2005 01:33									#60
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"Well Afghanistan, but what's in a name?"

We always supported war against terror.

But not wars to generate terror like in iraq. So whats your point.

"He waited 7 years and even then the reforms were quickly watered down."

Well. He proposed agenda2010 earlier but bundesrat and left wing slows down extremely in germany.

Thats why I hope for a grand coalition now. (Also to reform federalism here in germany.)