11-06-2001 02:27									#1
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	11-06-2001 02:32									#2
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Instructions for use

Last edited by SlowThinker on 08-03-2003 at 00:13

	11-06-2001 02:35									#3
	Post 3 Support Apolyton

List of my sources
Let me know if you know other interesting source of information related to dips/spies.

	11-06-2001 02:41									#4
	Post 4 Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Recent important updates

	11-06-2001 02:47									#5
	Post 5 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

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Last edited by SlowThinker on 08-03-2003 at 00:16

	10-06-2002 22:46									#6
	Post 6 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Starlifter posted this very useful comments to Civfantics (he is unable to load Apolyton pages):

quote: Originally posted by starlifter at Civfanatics Notes/Comments by Reference Number: My Notes: I use Civ 2 MGE, 5.4.0f, 24mar99 (the Patch 3), and comments apply to Single Player games only (if any differences with MP, I have not tried). Some comments refer to possible options in scenario usage and/or game editing (e.g., Barbarian comments). The comments follow the order of the website: 1.2: The "contact bribe" (at least in MGE SP) can change a unit to the enemy civ. 1.4: Other functions, like sabotage, are also allowed. 1.8: Change wording from "are ways how to get dip/spy with veteran status." to "can gain a non-vet's veteran status" 1.9: Delete "neither". 1.10: Insert closing parenthesis at end of 1st sentence. 2.11 Change "is" to "may be" (doing these dirties will not always result in an incident). 2.31 Insert closing parenthesis at end of sentence. 2.32 Change "arbitrarily " to "an arbitrary". 2.33 Add "or reputation" to "and it doesn't affect attitude." 3.4 Change "... plus all units one square out of the city ..." to plus all units (belonging to the civ owning the city) one square outside of the bribed city ...". 3.9 Two years ago, I tested the partisan issue just for my own info, and found out the increments of partisans followed the aquaduct/sewer cutoff as I recall. e.g., when city hit size 8, more partisans were formed, and size 12, even more. I believe size 5 was the cutoff for no partisans forming at all. I'd have to retest again sometime to verify the numbers and relative civ stuff, as I didn't keep the info... so don't quote the numbers as fact . It takes both Communism and Gunpowder (or Comm + Partisan Warfare) to produce partisans. GP, PW, and Consc can increase the number of Partisans produced. PS, I cannot get the Apolyton pages to load to check those links... All Apolyton pages always timeout before loading, so Poly=Useless for me personally. 3.1 Move this section up to top (it is 3.1), or rename it to 3.10. 3.1: The modifiers are multiplicitive (meaning multilply together); change " ...(these modifiers are cumulative)... " to "(these modifiers are multiplicitave, e.g., multiply them together to obtain the final result)" 3.20: Barbs can, by editing, be allowed to gain gold and have any form of government. In normal random maps, though, this section is OK. 3.21. Not true. Bribed barb cities can have disorder after they are bribed. 3.22 True, as you can't have a CF, Peace, or Alliance with Barbs. 3.23. Totally untrue. Barbs can have any form of Gov't, but the human must set a flag manually. In regualar SP games, however, barbs by default will not be in Communism. Scenarios and manual editing are how barbs can be in Democracy (ugh!), Comm, Fundy, have gold, science, etc. 4.4 To avoid confusion between the Engish "non" with the "NONE" unit, I personally always refer to nons as "NONEs"... it can be very confusing to newer players as 4.4 is written. So change "non-unit" to "NONE unit" is my suggestion. 4.20 might want to add "(there is usually no barbarian gold (G=0), no barbarian capital, and no barb Democracy) 4.4 (notes) change "2nd row applies to formula 4.1 (10 shield-unit, 0 gold)" to "2nd row applies to formula 4.1 (10 shield-unit, 0 gold, not Set/Eng)" 5.1 (Table-Incite) Change "5/6 (2/3 if veteran) of price" to "5/6 (2/3 if veteran) of a Diplomat's price" 5.1 (Table-Nuke) Change "may be lost" to "Will never be lost" Add "Non-vets will not achieve Veteran status if successful" 7.1 (after "Secondly"): Seems confusing in format; it took a several times of reading it to understand just what was meant . Maybe just a plain sentence like this: Secondarily, her attempt may be foiled by an enemy dip/spy positioned in the city for the "steal technology/any will do" mission only (see 11.2); she completes her assignment for all other missions. 7.3 Add a comment about planting Nukes, mabye as a 7.5. When planting a Nuke, if the mission is successful, the spy will return to your nearest city; non-vets will not be upgraded to veterans; a successful nuking spy will always survive the bomb blast. 8.11. Veterans have 50% better odds of surviving a unit sabotage. The non-vet odds are 50-50, according to my experience (but I have not run a large series of tests under various conditions to fully test the odds). 11.1 The "Stolen Tech" flag may indeed change over time, as Xin Yu and Lucky have suggested. I have not tested or paid attention to this before, so I'm not sure. But the "Stolen Tech" flag will be reset if a city changes hands . 11.2 Maybe add wording: "The anti-espionage effect of more than one Dip/Spy in is multiplicative (multiplied) for each unit present in the city 11.5: I have not specifically tested the "sleep" vs. "fortified" anti-espionage effectiveness; I rarely see an AI spy get thru to a city. From a small sample size, I had not noticed a difference. I normally Sleep my spies (except in coastal transport cities) so they will wake up and alert me to any AI units moving nearby in a huge empire. 12.2 Definitely can't sabotoage an SDI in MGE, even at size 1 (from My_Wife_Hates_Civ). Besides tests, here is the message if you specify the SDI: 12.4 In this case, if you try to get the SDI, you'll never get the menu.... the production is always sabotaged if the SDI is the only improvement in city. 14.1: I've not run enough tests to verify exact Nuking odds, but I personally plan on 2 Vet or 4 non-vets to get a city nuked.... on average. 21.4 Expel to Capitol (Palace) city, not home city (your nearest city if no capitol). 21.5 Take AI Capital first (and assuming it does not move), many remaining city bribes are much cheaper (if AI not in Democracy) due to 4.12. Well, that's about it You have a very comprehensive reference page, SlowThinker! Nice job to you and anyone who helped!

	11-06-2002 00:43									#7
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Can you blow up the SDI if you send diplos or spies with random improvement setting?

	11-06-2002 02:11									#8
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GP, no.
Do you want to say it is not clear in the main document?

Last edited by SlowThinker on 11-06-2002 at 02:22

	11-06-2002 05:50									#9
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It was not clear from Starlifter's remarks. I've noted (or maybe just think I've noted) that there is a difference in lieklihoood of succes for when you speicy what you want to blow up or when you just destroy soemthnbing at random. For instance if you are htting a place with only city walls (and something under construction) you might be better off destroying stuff at random versus specifying the walls.

	24-06-2002 03:28									#10
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GP is correct, its much easier to destroy random objects with spies and after doing so the city is on high alert to your presence for the next 8-10 turns i think? I just remember getting the message... of the cities citizens being on high alert

	22-02-2003 02:07									#11
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quote: 3.20 Bribing barbarian cities: Formula 3.1 applies (there is usually no barbarian gold (G=0) and no barbarian capital (S=16; see 3.23)), but the price is halved. 3.24 not tested: "city was yours before"

I am sorry, this was false.
There is no price halved. "City was yours before" applies if needed. So bribing barb cities is equal to non-barb cities.

	14-01-2004 09:15									#12
	Post 12 Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: 12.17 If you choose "give primary target" against the capital or walled city, then a message "Attempting sabotage in enemy capital or against city walls is very risky" appears. How much it lowers probability of a success? Have city walls and capital similar effect in other types of missions?

City walls don't affect other missions. The only difference is City Walls are less likely to be successfully sabotaged than other improvements (excluding SDI Defence, of course).

	17-01-2004 04:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Ren City walls don't affect other missions. The only difference is City Walls are less likely to be successfully sabotaged than other improvements (excluding SDI Defence, of course).

How did you get this conclusion? From testing or from missing "xxxx against city walls is very risky" message or ...?

	17-01-2004 19:44									#14
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinkerHow did you get this conclusion? From testing or from missing "xxxx against city walls is very risky" message or ...?

Uhh, I don't think I've missed any message; from my experience that message only appears when you specify City Walls for sabotage (or try any (sabotage?) mission against a nation's capital city).

	18-01-2004 05:08									#15
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Ren, I think you stated correctly that city walls don't affect a spy's chances of completing any mission other than sabotaging city walls. But then, I think there was misunderstanding. SlowThinker intended to ask whether that conclusion was based on the evidence of testing, or just on not getting the warning message when you try other missions against in cities with walls.

	18-01-2004 06:34									#16
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Exactly. Thank you for the translation, debeest

	18-01-2004 17:34									#17
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Sorry No, I haven't done any testing.

	18-01-2004 22:07									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ren Sorry No, I haven't done any testing.

I have done the testing about attacking city walls with diplomats and spies. You can find the results in the main thread about dips and spies.

	19-01-2004 03:11									#19
	Post 19 Increase the size of your Attachments

LF, the question is if City Walls make more difficult also other types of missions, for example stealing technology.

	19-01-2004 04:14									#20
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ST
We know that stealing is always successful if there is no dip or spy inside the city (except diplomat trying to steal from a city where a tech has already been stolen ).
The main question left is the % of losses.

I suggest that our friend Ren should test that (for example with 10 diplomats, 10 spies and 10 vet spies stealing from one city with and without walls, which means no more than 60 attacks for a start).

	20-01-2004 18:24									#21
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OK, so what's the standard method of testing? Set up the test, then keep reloading and retrying (you suggest 10 retrys?), then work out the average success rate?

	20-01-2004 18:53									#22
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Basically yes. It's pretty dull to do, but with the results then you (or we ) can get much closer to working out a formula for the effect tested, and can increase our knowledge of the game.

	21-01-2004 01:01									#23
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette I suggest that our friend Ren should test that (for example with 10 diplomats, 10 spies and 10 vet spies stealing from one city with and without walls, which means no more than 60 attacks for a start).

I think there are no probabilities with actions of dips, so you can test spies only.
Also I think you can test non-vets only, and if you will notice no difference with walls / without walls then I would suppose vets will behave similarly.

10 repetitions needn't be enough, 50 or 100 would be better.
I suggest to switch to cheat menu and for example to prepare 10 walled cities and 10 unwalled cities and to run this position 5 or 10 times.

quote: We know that stealing is always successful if there is no dip or spy inside the city.

The table 5.1 in the main post says it needn't be successfull if it is a second theft from that city.

	21-01-2004 07:39									#24
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker I suggest to switch to cheat menu and for example to prepare 10 walled cities and 10 unwalled cities and to run this position 5 or 10 times.

So you're saying I should run the test on a few different cities rather than continually the same city (via reload) - or is your suggestion just a time saver?

	21-01-2004 09:54									#25
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I think it is the same either way.

	21-01-2004 14:08									#26
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Yes, it is, because the city terrain will not play a part in these tests. If you suspect it might, then just create an all-grassland map, but the position of the cities won't matter. Make sure all the cities have the same number of defenders though - this may have an effect.

	21-01-2004 14:34									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ren So you're saying I should run the test on a few different cities rather than continually the same city (via reload) - or is your suggestion just a time saver?

Both. You can park 10 spies at a city, but I think you can't plant 10 nuclear devices for example. Also 2nd stolen tech goes differently...