13-08-2001 00:35									#31
	post 21 Get a bigger avatar today!

ST, I've rewritten 3.7 for fighters. This should clear up any ambiguity. Let me know if a non-native speaker agrees!

Last edited by Marquis de Sodaq on 28-08-2001 at 19:21

	13-08-2001 01:42									#32
	Post 22 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

deleted

Last edited by SlowThinker on 04-10-2001 at 04:03

	13-08-2001 21:27									#33
	Put an end to popups!

deleted

Last edited by SlowThinker on 04-10-2001 at 04:04

	13-08-2001 21:29									#34
	Post 24 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

During a debate with Boco about an interface of his combat calculator I wrote the following table of combat exceptions.

Last edited by SlowThinker on 15-06-2002 at 20:26

	13-08-2001 22:29									#35
	post 25 Increase the size of your Attachments

(edited)

For clarification, fighters don't scramble against missiles, do they? I don't think I've ever had a cruise missile fired at one of my cities. Your table looks good. I agree with the idea that bonuses are applied only after the program checks criteria - some variation of if/then loops for each flag.

Last edited by Marquis de Sodaq on 28-08-2001 at 19:23

	14-08-2001 01:23									#36
	Re: post 25 Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq For clarification, fighters don't scramble against missiles, do they? I don't think I've ever had a cruise missile fired at one of my cities.

I never tested missiles. I remember that civilopedia says that SAM works only against non-nuclear missiles...

	14-08-2001 06:49									#37
	Re: post 14 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq DaveV, see the discussion in the Credits link to the "Civfanatics combat odds discussion and testing." Tests do tend to favor the additive method. More test are always welcome, my summary changes with new discoveries, including debunking misnamed fact! In this case, the additive 50% matches tests, but a multiplicative 25% might give very similar results... Why would rivered terrain be an exception to being multiplicative? Because it is not its own terrain type, per se. It is the sole terrain that must appear with another.

After some testing of my own, I have to agree with rivers being additive. I have edited my original post.

	14-08-2001 10:08									#38
	Since it's been mentioned... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: During a debate with Boco about an interface of his combat calculator I wrote the following table of combat exceptions.

...SlowThinker

Some debate...I don't think I've won a point yet.

SlowThinker, Henrik, and Marquis have helped me design a worksheet that makes the calculations listed in this forum and its precedents. Thanks to them a large number of bonehead errors have been corrected. It's not quite ready for public testing, but it's close.

Stupid question on Section 3.9 (Pearl Harbor): AFP doubling effect has been tested or mentioned in the manual? The DFP=1 I read about, but I missed the AFP adjustment.

SlowThinker, have you posted about your injury equation? If you have, forgive my lousy eyes. Excel VBA has ruined them.

A zip of a screen shot gif is attached (can't legibly shrink it to 600 pixels for a posted image). Suggestions are welcome.

	14-08-2001 15:24									#39
	Post 28 Got spare money?

Boco,

quote: SlowThinker, have you posted about your injury equation? If you have, forgive my lousy eyes. Excel VBA has ruined them.

I don't understand...Do you want to say you are not able to find my e-mail? Here it is:

It is valid for equal firepower and hitpoints (I missed this in my initial post) only, or equal number of wins that are needed to destroy an opponent. The idea of my equation is that if the winner wins 75% of battles (=probability of success Per Round) for example, then these 75% kills the 100% of opponent. Therefore 25% of defeats causes that 25/75=33% of the winner is killed.

Of course, if the number of wins that are needed to destroy an opponent is not equal, then the result must be adjusted: it must be multiplied by

RoundedUp(dHP/aFP) / RoundedUp(aHP/dFP)

dHP is defender's hit points etc.
then RoundedUp(dHP/aFP) is the number of attacker's wins that are needed to kill the defender

I hope there is not very much of errors in my reasoning.

quote: Stupid question on Section 3.9 (Pearl Harbor): AFP doubling effect has been tested or mentioned in the manual?

My testing only.

Notes:
I would let the "All units" field blank. The user has to read it now, it retards.
Adjusted DF has "%" but terrain has "DF x". Should be unified. I vote for "DF x" intensively.
AF will be adjusted too now: Partisans.
Details: The "Basic modifiers"legend could be omitted, veterans could be in one row...

Don't forget your idea about hit points left. I would provide three outputs:
winner's hit points left
injury of winner(!, below 100%),
number of equal units of loser needed

	14-08-2001 16:08									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally published by Boco Fighter vs. Helicopter: Def FP = 1

But you are right! I tested it now: Helicopter's FP is pruned to 1.

One question remains: Is helicopter's DF halved or fighter's AF doubled? It would be hard testing, because we would have to check the 1/8 advantage for the defender...
But I vote for fighter's AF doubled: all factors are multiplied, none is divided in other cases. Your opinions?

Edit: this was solved, Boco suggested me to read the manual.

	14-08-2001 21:27									#41
	Re: Post 28 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

SlowThinker, I still have your email, but I felt that it was a valuable contribution that should be posted publicly. If you look closely at the screen shot, the average number of killed attackers and the injury to the first victorious attacker are listed. I'll edit it to include remaining hit points.

Regarding the helo, I simply went with the manual's description (DF/2). No testing, yet.

Still have a few more changes to make, but I think I can send a copy ~12h from now.[FONT=arial]

	14-08-2001 22:25									#42
	Post 31 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Boco Regarding the helo, I simply went with the manual's description (DF/2). No testing, yet.

Ah, you are right. I usually don't read the manual

	14-08-2001 22:27									#43
	Re: Post 18 Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker 3.9 I verified that if a naval unit attacks an air unit on the ground square, then no unit have his firepower reduced to 1, i.e. no shore bombardment effect.

What naval unit(s) can attack an air unit? Bombers seem impervious to all non-fighter units unless in a city.

	15-08-2001 03:42									#44
	Post 33 Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Blaupanzer What naval unit(s) can attack an air unit? Air units seem impervious to all attackers unless in a city.

1. A city square is also a ground square
2. Airbase
3. Any helico

In fact only bombers are impervious to all attackers excluding fighters.

	26-08-2001 21:51									#45
	Post 34 Suffering from ads?

IMHO the combat formula is wrong.
Please read http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=25291

Edit: The combat formula is correct

Last edited by SlowThinker on 28-08-2001 at 23:38

	27-08-2001 06:21									#46
	post 35 Put an end to popups!

IMHO, the combat formula is correct.

See my response in the other thread. I think you've found another way to come up with the same result, but want to verify some more.

	28-08-2001 08:34									#47
	Re Post 24 Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The manual states that when Ships attack Ships in cities, dFP is reduced to 1 (Combat - Shore Bombardment). It fails to mention the effect on aFP. I think it also fails to mention the fp adjustments that accompany other shore bombardment (Naval vs Ground).

It appears that the manual is inaccurate about Naval vs Ground. Is it also inaccurate about Naval vs. Naval on land?

	28-08-2001 19:28									#48
	post 37 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've added a false statements section, but need to look over the credited threads and the old combat thread to see if I've forgotten any that ought to be added. The manual might also be a good source.

Sections 5 and 6 have been numbered for easier reference.

	28-08-2001 22:49									#49
	Post 38 Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Boco The manual states that when Ships attack Ships in cities, dFP is reduced to 1 (Combat - Shore Bombardment).

I think they illogically repeated the fact of Pearl Harbor at the bad moment.
Anyway I retested it: naval vs. naval is always a normal battle, no FP, DF, AF adjustments.

Edit: "always" was too strong in the last sentence. A better expression:
Coastal Fortress and Shore bombardment are ignored in the case of naval vs. naval.

Edit 2: Definitely I wanted to say
Caught in port and Shore bombardment are ignored in the case of naval vs. naval.


BTW they should pay more attention to the manual. Too much of false statements.

	28-08-2001 22:53									#50
	Post 39 Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

How do you understand the following sentence (page 107 of the manual)?
PEARL HARBOR
...Air units also pick off city defenders one at a time, except for Nuclear missiles

	29-08-2001 00:15									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Some notes useful for scenario designers only:

Tests results:
Air units except fighter benefit from SAM.
Ground fighters don't benefit from both SAM and scramble.

The outcome:
"Scramble" applies to an air unit with fighter flag
and
"SAM" is ignored if the defender has a fighter flag (needn't to be an air unit)

	29-08-2001 13:58									#52
	Suffering from ads?

Sometimes I have a feeling we are a small group of conspirators in this thread. See http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...20&goto=newpost

	29-08-2001 16:06									#53
	Re: Post 39 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker How do you understand the following sentence (page 107 of the manual)? PEARL HARBOR ...Air units also pick off city defenders one at a time, except for Nuclear missiles

It may have been clearer if they stated "Air units, except for nukes, also pick off...

ST, thanks for the Civ3 link. I'll post some shameless plugs for this thread on other forums. By the way, have any of you rated this thread yet?

	31-08-2001 02:07									#54
	Post 43 Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker How do you understand the following sentence (page 107 of the manual)? PEARL HARBOR ...Air units also pick off city defenders one at a time, except for Nuclear missiles It may have been clearer if they stated "Air units, except for nukes, also pick off...

But I would never suppose that air units don't pick off city defenders one at a time.
Do you think they wanted to say that Nuclear missiles are a departure from the rule?

	02-09-2001 07:59									#55
	Diplomats (0d) Suffering from ads?

Does it make sense that modifiers of a 0d unit's DF has no bearing on combat? It appears that the most common important contributors to the rare successful defense of a diplomat are (1) depleted attacker hp's (well into the red) and (2) reduced attacker AF's (e.g. only 1/3 mf left). Does the defender's terrain have no effect?

	02-09-2001 17:44									#56
	Post 45 Re: Diplomats (0d) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Boco Does it make sense that modifiers of a 0d unit's DF has no bearing on combat? Does the defender's terrain have no effect?

Theory says that no adjustment (terrain, veteran...) has effect towards a 0d unit.
I believe this is correct but I never tested it.

	11-09-2001 00:57									#57
	Post 46 Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hello gentlemen. I have a few amendments to suggest.

quote: 1.2 A battle results in the destruction of one unit or the other. If the primary defender is destroyed, all other defenders (stacked) in the same square are also destroyed unless they occupy a city square, or the square has the fortress improvement built on it.

or the square has the airbase improvement built on it.

quote: 1.5 Ground units can only attack other ground units. Exceptions: Helicopters can be attacked by ground units if they occupy a land square. A sea or air unit may be attacked if it is the primary defender in a city or airbase.

Ground units with the Fighter Flag can attack air units.

quote: 1.7 Sea units ... Exceptions: Airborne bombers cannot be attacked by sea units. ...

Sea units with the Fighter Flag can attack air units.

quote: 3.7 Some flags (in rules.txt) can alter combat calculations as follows: Can attack air units (fighter flag):

• Allows a unit of any domain to attack air units.
  
• A unit of any domain with the fighter flag stationed in a city that is attacked by any unit with an air domain scrambles, gaining a +300% defense bonus.
  
• Units with the fighter flag do not gain the defensive bonus from the SAM improvement.
  
• An air domain unit with a range of zero (helicopter) attacked by a unit of any domain with the fighter flag suffers a -50% defense adjustment and has its firepower reduced to 1.
  
• This I know nothing about : A fighter gains a +100% defense bonus when attacked by another fighter.
  

	11-09-2001 23:59									#58
	Post 47 Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by William Keenan This I know nothing about : A fighter gains a +100% defense bonus when attacked by another fighter.

Do you want to say you have an experience with different results?

	12-09-2001 01:10									#59
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Everything I stated I know through personal reseach on my Necrociv scenario.

	12-09-2001 03:26									#60
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

William,

I attach my test .sav file (MGE) and the rules.txt file:

Fighter, Sth, 1, 10.,1, 16a,8d, 10h,1f, 6,0, 3, Fli, 000000000010001
Bomber, Sth, 1, 8.,2, 32a,8d, 10h,1f, 12,0, 0, AFl, 000000000000001
Helicopter, nil, 1, 6.,0, 32a,8d, 10h,1f, 10,0, 0, CA, 100000000000001

Attachment: fighter scramble.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).