16-11-2001 04:36									#91
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Slowthinker,

1. I meant you!

2. The manual (or maybe strat guide) says that the player gets a bonus with Cheiftan level. This is easily verifieable. It's relatively common to win when attacking another phalanx with a phalanx.

3. The AI can take over your cities with a settler. Can the human do this?

4. The sentence is still a little awkward, but it's OK...

	16-11-2001 05:25									#92
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2. I am bored of testing. Do it yourself . I suggest
a) to set hitpoints to 100 (i.e. 10 in rules.txt): the fortuity will be low
b)to use units with higher attack/defense: the defender's bonus will be relatively low.

3. I dont think so, but test it if you want to be100% sure...

Edited: a smile so that my impoliteness isnt taken seriously

Last edited by SlowThinker on 16-11-2001 at 06:06

	16-11-2001 08:40									#93
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First thanks for the backup in the other thread. I felt like I had called a howtzer in!!

Sceond, I don't have the game anymore. I gave it to my sister. She started playing it from my laptop when I visited. I had an attack of ehtics and cleaned the copy off my own drive.

Third, we don't need to test points 2 and 3 (well probably we should but I think we agree on what happens.) I was making the point more to say that the text description should include these issues from completeness than to ask for tests...

Now go back to some lackadaisickal thinking.

	16-11-2001 09:06									#94
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Oh and one slightly silly thing. Could you please vote for me in this thread regarding branching threads.

(I will edit this out later.)

	16-11-2001 23:36									#95
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GP, much to answer! In order:

1) the pikeman bonus works against the horseman, chariot, knights, elephant, and crusader. Dragoons and cavalry have 2hp, so it does not work against them. Or howitzers.

2) I've answered in the other thread. Difficulty level affects ONLY barbarian attack strength, not the AI.

3) There is no known bonus to the final defender of a city. Note: the last city defender of your only city is immune to barbarian attack.

4) Helicopters can capture cities. So can settlers and engineers. Diplomats, spies, caravans, freights, naval units, and air units with range>0 (fighters and bombers, thus) cannot capture cities. All others can.

Finally, nobody tested on chieftain level, so what the manual says may be correct. Altho it is incorrect just as often...

	17-11-2001 00:26									#96
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Thanks!!

I tested it (well not rigorously...) on cheiftan. Some words to the effect of "On cheiftan level the human player gets an unknown amount of advantage in combat." would be sufficient.

I'm not trying to give you more work. I just want the tome to be complete.

	17-11-2001 01:10									#97
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quote: Originally posted by GP Oh and one slightly silly thing. Could you please vote for me in this thread regarding branching threads. (I will edit this out later.)

I've heard of politicians out on the stump... but never on the branch.

-----------------

SG(2)

	17-11-2001 08:48									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits I've heard of politicians out on the stump... but never on the branch. ----------------- SG(2)

Vote for me!! And have the rest of the collective do so also...

	06-04-2002 02:21									#99
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BUMP

To refresh the veterans, and guide the newbies...


(MdS pats self on back)

	06-04-2002 22:22									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq (MdS pats self on back)

... and so he should - this thread represents a great deal of work by several people, not least the Marquis.

	09-04-2002 08:58									#101
	post 100 Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've been busy over at the CivLab. While the janitorial crew mops up the blood and guts, the statisticians puzzle over a quandary.

There appears to be no bonus for a sneak attack. (!)
I lined up warriors for 200 attacks the turn following a peace treaty.

Test 1: 100 battles, default rules warriors vs warriors. The math predicts 29% victory for the attacker. CivLab results:
26 victories, 74 losses - 26%

Test 2: 100 battles, warriors vs warriors, modified to 10a/10d, 5hp,1fp. The math predicts 47% victories for the attacker. CivLab results:
50 victories, 50 losses - 50%

I calculated expected odds for various possible modifiers. Giving a x1.5fp, x2fp, x1.5 attack, x1.25 attack, etc, all result in very high odds of victory. At least 77%, far out of the range of possibilities given the test results.

I also kept track of veteran status promotion. The tests resulted in 12 and 20 promotions, respectively. The promotion seems random.

	09-04-2002 10:07									#102
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There's no reference to a "sneak attack" bonus in the manual or the Civilopedia or any official source I know of. When I first encountered people here talking about such a bonus, I was skeptical. Then again, I was skeptical about the level-specific barbarian attack penalty/bonus, too, and that turns out to be real even though there's no official mention of it. And I was highly skeptical about barbarian archers having a defensive value of 1, too. So I've looked for a sneak attack bonus when the situation arose naturally. I never found any indication that all the units of the sneak attacking civ get such a bonus on the sneak attack turn. However, it occurred to me that there could be a bonus just for the FIRST unit sneak attacking. I thought about going to the lab myself, and then decided that setting up the situation to test it would be too onerous. However, it now occurs to me that one could modify rules.txt to give a warrior LOTS of hit points (say, 100 instead of 1) and then just one test would give you a pretty good evaluation. Marquis?

	09-04-2002 18:31									#103
	post 102 Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by debeest When I first encountered people here talking about such a bonus, I was skeptical...

Me, too. It was so commonly discussed that I included it in this thread. Now I guess I've proven it to be a false statement. It isn't the first notion that has been debunked by testing, that's why the lab has been so useful.

quote: Originally posted by debeest However, it occurred to me that there could be a bonus just for the FIRST unit sneak attacking.

That is what the 200 tests I just ran did.

(MdS sending the 178th warrior to his death)

quote: Originally posted by debeest However, it now occurs to me that one could modify rules.txt to give a warrior LOTS of hit points (say, 100 instead of 1) and then just one test would give you a pretty good evaluation. Marquis?

Yes, that would. I, for one, have no desire to compute a combination sum that large! I'll stick with slightly increased hit points for the battle (5hp).

	09-04-2002 18:36									#104
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Just to nitpick - before Slow Thinker gets to it - I think your post count is out by 1, M le Marquis. This is (I believe) post 104.

	09-04-2002 20:30									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Marquis de Sodaq 4) Helicopters can capture cities. So can settlers and engineers. Diplomats, spies, caravans, freights, naval units, and air units with range>0 (fighters and bombers, thus) cannot capture cities. All others can.

There is an exception to this. Caravans and frieghts can capture a city if they paradrop into it. I enountered this in a scenario I was playing some time ago (?Possibly Crisis of the New World Order?). The freight units had the paradrop flag set and I was able to capture cities with the freights by paradropping them into empty enemy cities.

This won't be an issue in a regular game, but it is something for scenario designers to take note of.

	09-04-2002 21:52									#106
	post 106 (thanks, SG) Full PM-box? Change here!

Thoth, that's interesting! Immediately I think of the other attack=0 units - can a paradropping diplomat capture a city? It's time to go to the lab to drop camels and busty vixens from airplanes. I'll try a loaded transport, as well.

	10-04-2002 01:43									#107
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Well, I opened up the lab and some notes I made awhile back on paradropping ships.

General:

Must paradrop to a land square.

Can paradrop from an ocean Airbase. This applies to Air, Sea and Land based units. The Land based units may be brought in by ship and then paradrop from the airbase.

Paradropping ships:
Cannot move except into to water squares.

Units "asleep" in a paradropping ship's holds will be transported with the ship and may attack/move normally after the paradrop.
Note: All road/railroad movement multipliers affect the land units normally. ie: If your ship paradrops onto a railroaded square the units inside are treated as if they begin their turn on railroad.

Sea Based Transport/Airbases:

AFAIK these can only be created using the cheat menu.

Change to grassland. Toggle Airbase/Transporter on. Change back to ocean.

Air units will refuel (and end their turn) at Ocean Airbases. Naval Paradrop units can paradrop from (but not to) ocean airbases.

City Capture:

Ships, aircraft, diplomats and caravans can all capture empty enemy cities by paradropping into them.


I encountered the idea for paradropping ships in a WWII scenario some time ago (I can't remember what it was called. I think the author was Captain Nemo but I am by no means certain. )

I played around with the idea a few months ago while searching for a decent way to model hyperspace travel for a sci-fi scenario. I was disapointed to discover that changing the movement cost of ocean and/or railroading it has no effect on ship movement.

	16-04-2002 04:11									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Just to nitpick - before Slow Thinker gets to it - I think your post count is out by 1, M le Marquis. This is (I believe) post 104.

About nitpicks...Who will repair the Library?

	27-05-2002 09:23									#109
	Post 109 Suffering from ads?

Testing has shown that a long held "fact" was indeed a myth. The pikeman bonus (3.7) "x2 vs horse" is not limited to move=2, hp=1, fp=1 attacks. The bonus is still triggered by a unit with move=2, hp=1, fp=2.

In short, firepower is irrelevant when determining if the pikeman bonus will be triggered. Details:
Here

The Adjustment Factors and Credits posts have been updated. You learn something new every day...

	11-06-2002 03:07									#110
	post 110 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Marquis,

The thread deserves some cleaning, it is hard to search among so much posts.
I think you should take a journey through the thread and include all the new info.

	11-06-2002 05:55									#111
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Make sure that the cheiftan issue is included. (Both the manual and my testing support it.)

	11-06-2002 21:44									#112
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quote: Originally posted by GP Make sure that the cheiftan issue is included. (Both the manual and my testing support it.)

Uh... please refresh my memory Was this about a combat bonus for the human at chieftain level?

Do you have any numbers and circumstance description of your tests? That would be good to include.

	12-06-2002 00:29									#113
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deleted, slow post

	12-06-2002 02:37									#114
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Marquis, I don't have the numbers anymore. What the manual says is that there is a human bonus. What I've seen is that, if you try attacking AI phalanxes (on grassland) you win about 50% of the time. Not sure what that implies about other combats or if you are the defender. It is a definite effect though. Not something I'm imagining. It's quite noticeable and refects some modification to the formula for humans in cheiftan. I don't have the game anymore so I can't test it again.

	12-06-2002 07:12									#115
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Okay, GP, maybe it's time for me to dust off the old chieftain button on the startup menu. I'll post whatever I find, then compare it to the manual...

	15-06-2002 21:01									#116
	post 116 Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by la fayette in CivFanatics: Civ 2 1-pager tech tree Pikemen: defence against horse = +1 (not x2; this has been demonstrated by DaveV, the master of ICS , IIRC, ask Sodak if in doubt)

I never heard about this...

	15-06-2002 23:30									#117
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quote: Originally posted by GP Marquis, I don't have the numbers anymore. What the manual says is that there is a human bonus. What I've seen is that, if you try attacking AI phalanxes (on grassland) you win about 50% of the time. Not sure what that implies about other combats or if you are the defender. It is a definite effect though. Not something I'm imagining. It's quite noticeable and refects some modification to the formula for humans in cheiftan. I don't have the game anymore so I can't test it again.

GP, I don't recall anything in the manual indicating that the human player gets any combat bonus at chieftain level. Can you locate that info for us?

What units are you saying win 50% of the time attacking AI phalanxes? Warriors? That would imply a double-strength attack. Horsemen? That would be pretty close to the expected, right?

	16-06-2002 06:12									#118
	post 118 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker I never heard about this...

+1 with the pikeman defense of 2 is the same as x1.5 - that should sound familiar. To see if it is added instead of multiplied, one need only check with a higher defense value pikeman.

	16-06-2002 10:05									#119
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debeest, I'm talking phalanx against phalanx.

	16-06-2002 10:53									#120
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I'km sure that I read it. Not sure if it was manual or strat guide. I will check the manual, don't have the strat guide. Regardless, all you have to do is fire up cheiftan and play a little. You will see that combat is skewed.