27-07-2002 03:05									#121
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bump

	03-04-2003 02:12									#122
	post 122 Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Another possible info to be integrated:
Surprise attack bonus
Veteran status of Missiles(?)
City Battle Healing

	04-04-2003 21:44									#123
	Inflate your Upload Space

Thanks for the links, ST.
Thanks rah for the sneak attack tests, as well.


I'll get around to updating the main text someday soon.

	28-05-2003 18:05									#124
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In wich way are the effects of terrain and veteran status are added to the outcome of an combat.

I made a little experiment:

both units has 4a,1d,1hp,1fp

; defense = multiply by 50% to get % of normal combat factor defended at.
; (so 3 x 50% = 150%, meaning a strength 2 unit defends at 3).

I create a 400% terrain
Desert, 1,8, 0,1,0, yes, 1, 6, 5, no, 1, 5, 3, no, ; Drt

I expected no differences between the outcomes of a non veteran and a veteran combat, but

1st test
Without the veteran bonus the outcome was a little better than 1:1 and the winning unit was mostly damaged.

2nd test
If I made both units a veteran the winning ratio for the attacker has been significantly increased and if the attacker wins, the damage has bee decreased in comparision with the results from the first test.

Solutions

	29-05-2003 04:42									#125
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The defender has an advantage: both players throw a dice but a defender wins draw results.
If attacker=1, defender=1, then the real values are attacker=7/8 and defender=9/8.
Read DaveV's and my posts in Modifiers for Attack/Defense

In your example non-vets are 3 7/8 vs. 4 1/8, vets are 5 7/8 vs. 6 1/8.

	29-05-2003 05:52									#126
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Thoddy,

What were your results? I think I may need to modify my calculator spreadsheet - it was predicting virtually the same result for both situations (48 v. 49% chance of victory).

	29-05-2003 16:05									#127
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very interesting

why are there so many deleted posts?
is this thread already in the great library?

	29-05-2003 18:30									#128
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Shaka Naldur,
Posts and suggestions that were included into the main text are deleted so that don't have to read 9 pages of text.

Thoddy,
try to increase hp of both units from 1 to 14 (IIRC this is the maximum). Results should be more stable and should correspond to the Boco's calculator.

	30-05-2003 12:04									#129
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@Boco
I run about 50 combats and the vet combat results were not the expected ones. So I ask for possible reasons.

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Thoddy, try to increase hp of both units from 1 to 14 (IIRC this is the maximum). Results should be more stable and should correspond to the Boco's calculator.

I will test with more hp but this will last some time because of 3 week holidays.

	17-06-2003 05:56									#130
	time of healing Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have tested the defense bonus against barbs in cities. See Strategies against Barbarian Attacks .

quote: Originally posted by Marquis Healing away from a city or fortress (by skipping that unit's turn) occurs immediately, before the next unit is available for an order. Barracks healing occurs at the end of the player's turn.

After testing I claim healing is always executed when your cities are processed by the Civ2 engine.
An example: You are attacked by AI, you see your unit got in red. Then cities are processed and if your damaged unit didn't move last turn (i.e. before the AI attack) you see your unit got in yellow.

	23-06-2003 18:01									#131
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Good news,

The calculator doesnt need any modifications.

By setting hp to 10 I got the expectedt results.
Seems the random factor at the first tests has well meant to me.

	08-07-2003 05:46									#132
	Sneak attack bonus Remove this text

Result of tests:
Sneak attack bonus works only if human player is attacked (no matter if by another human or AI).
Edit: It don't happen in Multiplayer/Hotseat mode because Civ2 engine considers other human players as AIs.
The effect: Attack factor is doubled (or Defense factor is halved, but I think it is the Attack factor).

Last edited by SlowThinker on 08-10-2003 at 21:42

	08-07-2003 21:21									#133
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Thanks for the clarification on that.

RAH

	08-07-2003 21:39									#134
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Now I agree that it works in SP too - post was edited.

	15-09-2003 16:36									#135
	choice of the defender Remove this text

In River War scenario I lost a key unit (Sirdar, 4d, 2h, 2f) because it was stacked with a unit less resistible to attack (Maxim Gun, 6d,1h, 1f). The attacker was Nubian Infantry (4a, 1h, 1f): it was a Veteran (6a, 1h, 1f). Sirdar is 2x stronger against Nubian Inf. attack than Maxim Gun, but the defending unit was Maxim Gun and it lost the combat.

So I ran some tests. The result:

For each unit in the stack Civ2 engine counts 'the defensive ability':
Defense*remainingHP/totalHP
The unit with the highest 'defensive ability' defends.
If more units have an exact 'defensive ability' then the first unit that came on the square defends.

Notes:
Vet status affects the Defense (x1.5), I suppose other modifiers too but I didn't test them.
Initial HP, FP are completely ignored! Only percentage of remaining HP (remainingHP/totalHP) is taken into account.
Unit role (0-attack, 1-defense) is ignored.
Other stats (Attack, Movement) are ignored. If you have a phalanx and legion stacked and the legion stands longer on the square then legion will defend

So the choice of defender is buggy . There are 2 defects:

1. HP, FP stats are completely ignored.
2. For a combat outcome the Defense has a bigger significance than Percentage of remaining HP. Civ2 takes a healthy Warrior equal as half-wounded Phalanx but Phalanx is considerably stronger.

Last edited by SlowThinker on 15-09-2003 at 22:07

	15-09-2003 17:40									#136
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I always laugh when the settler defends the stack. (and wins)

	08-10-2003 21:18									#137
	Sneak attack in hotseat mode Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

After losing a horsemen in a hotseat PBEM game and providing more tests I can claim

The sneak attack in hotseat mode don't work.
It looks in hotseat games the Civ2 engine takes other humans as AIs in every respect: F3 key invokes an AI diplomacy window, the Demographics window bug works, the sneak attack don't work.

Last edited by SlowThinker on 09-10-2003 at 21:39

	09-10-2003 17:13									#138
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That makes sense.
Thanks for the clarification.

	10-10-2003 04:47									#139
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chieftan effect still missing...

	10-10-2003 05:09									#140
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Can you post result of tests

	10-10-2003 06:49									#141
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No. Sister still has my game. Must you ask such obvious questions?

	19-10-2003 03:32									#142
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Nice to see this thread is still active. I've been away for a long time, thanks everybody for keeping this going.

	19-10-2003 06:09									#143
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Marquis, you should incorporate all posts to the main text

	21-10-2003 06:16									#144
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Marquis, you should incorporate all posts to the main text

The Sneak Attack! section of the main text has been edited. Very briefly.

	28-10-2003 03:01									#145
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I want to point this thread out: Modifiers for Attack/Defense. It explains the practical significance of Attack factor, Defense factor, Hitpoints and Firepower.

	29-10-2003 00:53									#146
	Combat math in practice Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I will give an example how to use combat math in practice. (Read Modifiers for Attack/Defense )for details.

An example:
Artillery (10 AF, 1 DF, 2 HP, 2 FP) with vet status attacks a Mech. Inf. (6 AF, 6 DF, 3 HP, 1 FP) fortified on a rivered hills.

A.
First of all you apply modifiers:
Vet status causes the Arty attacks with AF=10*1.5=15
Rivered hills causes the Mech. Inf. defends with DF=6*1.5*(2+0.5)=22.5

B.
Then you add a 1/8 bonus to the defender and 1/8 malus to the attacker (you can omit them if you don't need to be accurate):
Arty attacks is AF=14+7/8
Mech. Inf. defense is DF=22+5/8

C.
Now the stronger stats are enhanced - it is upped by (the absolute value of) the difference between attack and defense. In our example the defense is the stronger value:
DS=DF=22+5/8 + (22+5/8 - 14+7/8) = 22+5/8 + 6+6/8 = 29+3/8
(I 'renamed' Defense Factor to Defense Strength (DS) - it is some new kind of number)

D.
Now results are multiplied by HP*FP:
AS=(14+7/8)*2*2=44+1/2=44.5
DS=(29+3/8)*3*1=58+1/8=58.125

These numbers (AS - Attack Strength and DS - Defense Strength) express a relative strength of units:
58.125 / 44.5 = cca 1.3
so the defending Mech. Inf. is about 1.3 times stronger that the attacking Artillery. In average you need 1.3 Mech. Inf. units to kill the defender. In other words the first Mech. Inf. will be killed and the second one will get a 30% damage.

Last edited by SlowThinker on 29-10-2003 at 01:23

	29-10-2003 15:29									#147
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You mean that you'll need two artillery to kill the mech infantry don't you?

This is great work! It'd be nice to have a SG Hut Finderesque program to calculate who'll win, but that would be at its most accurate only when both units had full green. Once their health bars were reduced then it'd become far more difficult to calculate accurately.
I'm not sure that this work, admirable though it is, will have the speed that rah and the MP community will want, but it's a great basis for some trials and then once you have fought enough you'll have an idea of which units defeat which in which situations. Unless your opponent has the War Academy, then you cannot tell whether the opposing units will be vet or not, so this adds another doubt, but in MP it'd be safe to make the assumption that everyone will be operating with vet units.

	31-10-2003 04:25									#148
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quote: It'd be nice to have a SG Hut Finderesque program to calculate who'll win

These calculations are quite easy IMHO (if you omit point B). No program is needed.
For exact calculations you need Boco's Combat calculator (link in GL),

quote: You mean that you'll need two artillery to kill the mech infantry don't you?

It is very likely, but it is not 100% sure.
Take Boco's calculator, double number of hitpoints for an Artillery (to simulate two units), and you will see the probability.

quote: but that would be at its most accurate only when both units had full green. Once their health bars were reduced then it'd become far more difficult to calculate accurately.

It would not be so hard - you simply exchange HP=1 by HP=0.6 for example.

	31-10-2003 20:49									#149
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Well done, ST
This looks quite clear and simple enough.
It should help me understand what happened when I lose an unit and get angry at the supposedly cheating AI

	09-12-2003 21:01									#150
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This thread is a treasure. Thanks to all who contributed.

Monk