16-12-2003 10:42									#151
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I would like clarification on some rules.

1. I just want to confirm -- the fortified bonus can only benefit land units, right?

2. Do naval units ignore the fortress defense bonus?

3. Do howitzers ignore the fortress defense bonus?

4. When the attacker ignores city walls (air, naval, howitzer), does a defender fortified in a city with city walls get the x1.5 fortified bonus?

5. When the attacker ignores fortresses (air, naval?, howitzer?), does a defender fortified in a fortress get the x1.5 fortified bonus?

6. The main post says that fighters in unwalled cities can scramble, but I get a "fighters scramble" message whether the city has city walls or not (and whether the fighter is fortified or not). I'm using v1.1.1 for Mac.

By the way, in section 3.2a it says "see posts 15 thru 17 and post 19", but those posts have been removed.

I want to know because I'm writing a Civ2 combat calculator. This thread is very useful, to say the least! I want to have it take into account as many situations as possible. I've already done a lot of the coding, and I should have a useable version ready tomorrow or in a few days.

I tried running Boco's calculator (in Excel v.X for Mac OS X) but I can't load units. I'm writing my program as a pure Java application, so it should run on any OS (Windows, Mac, whatever) that has Java 1.4.1 installed. (On Mac, Java 1.4.1 is only available on Mac OS X, but I play Civ2 under Classic so I don't mind).

Some features it will have:
- Load all units from any file with units info in the same format as in RULES.TXT.
- Configure and edit unit information (much like in Boco's calculator, but I want mine to be nicer and easier to use).
- Show all the calculation details and draw a probability distribution graph.

Thanks,
David Arndt

	17-12-2003 16:02									#152
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Nothing avoids fortresses. No matter who is in or outside the fortress, then the fortress will affect the defender. Howitzers do not get the "ignore" bonus against fortresses, which can often be the only way to defend against them successfully.
Boats can fortify in cities, but obviously not on the open sea.

	17-12-2003 17:09									#153
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(I will disagree with duke)

quote: 1. I just want to confirm -- the fortified bonus can only benefit land units, right?

Yes. Although you can fortify a boat or a plane in a city, it will have no effect.

quote: 2. Do naval units ignore the fortress defense bonus?

No, the bonus is in operation.

quote: 3. Do howitzers ignore the fortress defense bonus?

I am not sure, but suppose no.

quote: 4. When the attacker ignores city walls (air, naval, howitzer), does a defender fortified in a city with city walls get the x1.5 fortified bonus? 5. When the attacker ignores fortresses (air, naval?, howitzer?), does a defender fortified in a fortress get the x1.5 fortified bonus?

Of course.

quote: 6. The main post says that fighters in unwalled cities can scramble, but I get a "fighters scramble" message whether the city has city walls or not.

I have a 'newer' version (after revisions) on my disk and there is 'fighter positioned in a city' only. I think marquis forgot edit it. Is it in both html and Word version?

You can test anything quite easily if you set hitpoints to a high number (12 is the max) in rules.txt.

	17-12-2003 23:47									#154
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker I have a 'newer' version (after revisions) on my disk and there is 'fighter positioned in a city' only. I think marquis forgot edit it. Is it in both html and Word version?

It's changed in all 3 versions on Civ Fanatics. I didn't know which version to use so I just used the one at the beginning of this post.

quote: You can test anything quite easily if you set hitpoints to a high number (12 is the max) in rules.txt.

I know, and I'll probably do some of that. Just wanted to avoid testing things that were already known.

Thanks for the help. In my program I made a few other assumptions, most of them probably correct. I'll list them here for now, and probably test any unresolved ones later.

7. Section 3h-iii suggests that the attacking unit is considered a fighter based on it's having range = 1. Are you sure it's not the "can attack air units" flag instead?

8. The in-game messages are accurate about when a fighter scrambles. For instance, I assume that fighters do not scramble vs missiles -- missiles are defended against with fortified (for ground units) and SAM Missile Battery bonuses instead.

9. The SDI Defense bonus vs. missiles only applies in cases where a SAM Missile Battery is present and active.

10. A unit from any domain can have the AEGIS Cruiser defense bonus, and that the multipliers are x3 and x5 as in the manual. I think that the multipliers may have been changed in a patch, but I haven't checked this out yet.

11. Ground units fortified outside a city get a defense bonus vs. naval units.

12. To activate the fighter vs. helicopter special case, I assume that the attacking unit can be any domain, and only needs to have it's "can attack air units (fighter)" flag active.

13. Naval and air units in cities do not get a terrain bonus.

Thanks,
David Arndt

	18-12-2003 00:53									#155
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quote: Originally posted by darndt I know, and I'll probably do some of that. Just wanted to avoid testing things that were already known. 9. The SDI Defense bonus vs. missiles only applies in cases where a SAM Missile Battery is present and active. Thanks, David Arndt

Not true, Dave. SDI gives 2X defense bonus -v- Cr Msl even without SAM. Hope this helps.

Monk

	18-12-2003 03:45									#156
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quote: Originally posted by duke o' york Nothing avoids fortresses. No matter who is in or outside the fortress, then the fortress will affect the defender. Howitzers do not get the "ignore" bonus against fortresses, which can often be the only way to defend against them successfully.

14. Then does the fortress defense bonus apply even when the attacker is an air unit?

	18-12-2003 18:59									#157
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quote: Originally posted by darndt 14. Then does the fortress defense bonus apply even when the attacker is an air unit?

Fortress is covered in the beginning of the paper. It says,
"This improvement gives no bonus against an attack by an air unit."

(Are you referring to something else, or, are you suggesting the paper is wrong on this point??)

Monk

	18-12-2003 23:38									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Fortress is covered in the beginning of the paper. It says, "This improvement gives no bonus against an attack by an air unit." (Are you referring to something else, or, are you suggesting the paper is wrong on this point??)

Oops. Sorry, I guess I missed that. I have no reason to think the paper is wrong.

	19-12-2003 03:44									#159
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quote: Originally posted by darndt 7. Section 3h-iii suggests that the attacking unit is considered a fighter based on it's having range = 1. Are you sure it's not the "can attack air units" flag instead?

A fighter is any non-missile with range=1. This allows multiple attacks per turn with the restriction that the unit must take off and land on the same turn. Air units in a city with "can attack air units" flag will scramble regardless whether they are fighters or bombers.

quote: 13. Naval and air units in cities do not get a terrain bonus.

Not sure about naval units but air units definitely get a terrain bonus.

	19-12-2003 08:31									#160
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Not sure about naval units but air units definitely get a terrain bonus.

Do you know whether air units outside cities get a terrain bonus? Come to think of it, do they get a fortress bonus?

	19-12-2003 11:04									#161
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quote: Originally posted by darndt Do you know whether air units outside cities get a terrain bonus? Come to think of it, do they get a fortress bonus?

You are asking some good questions. Most of the answers are probably somewhere in the thread. Or they SEEM to be inferred in differing ways.

Terrain effects are not a factor for the attacking unit. And defending air units outside a city (and not in an airbase) would be bombers in the AIR, would they not (fighters would have crashed)?? I don't think there is a terrain bonus for air. Perhaps you have something else in mind in forming this question.

In post 70, Marquis says only land units get the defensive bonus from being in a fortress.

Xin Yu and DaveV speak to terrain effects in a city on air and sea units in one of the threads listed under Credits near the bottom of page1.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...=&threadid=2402

Hope this helps.

Monk

	19-12-2003 12:52									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Terrain effects are not a factor for the attacking unit. And defending air units outside a city (and not in an airbase) would be bombers in the AIR, would they not (fighters would have crashed)?? I don't think there is a terrain bonus for air. Perhaps you have something else in mind in forming this question.

Or helicopters. (I also just tested what happens to air units in a city that is destroyed -- they're destroyed too).

I don't have anything else in mind. Although terrain bonuses for air units don't make much sense, they could exist as a bug. Or maybe someone thought that, for example, helicopters could benefit from being able to hide behind hills, so they enabled the terrain bonus.

quote: In post 70, Marquis says only land units get the defensive bonus from being in a fortress. Xin Yu and DaveV speak to terrain effects in a city on air and sea units in one of the threads listed under Credits near the bottom of page1. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...=&threadid=2402

Thanks for the help!

	20-12-2003 07:51									#163
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Thanks, all, for keeping the discussion going between my monthy Apolyton visits!

quote: Originally posted by darndt It's changed in all 3 versions on Civ Fanatics. I didn't know which version to use so I just used the one at the beginning of this post.

Call it messy. It might be in there because I either CTRL-Vd something instead of CTRL-Xd it. The walls should not warrant any effect on scrambling, IIRC.

quote: 7. Section 3h-iii suggests that the attacking unit is considered a fighter based on it's having range = 1. Are you sure it's not the "can attack air units" flag instead?

With certainty, the range is what makes an air unit a fighter. Any unit can have the flag.

quote: 12. To activate the fighter vs. helicopter special case, I assume that the attacking unit can be any domain, and only needs to have it's "can attack air units (fighter)" flag active.

Any unit can attack a helicopter (except subs?). The special bonus is for the range = 1 air units.

	20-12-2003 07:56									#164
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I just reread the adjustments section regarding the scrambling fighters - this is not a typo! The circumstance it describes is when the fighter is the primary defender of the city - tho not being attacked by an air unit, the bonus may be activated anyway.

	26-12-2003 04:53									#165
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I did some testing on the unresolved items I listed above. Items not listed have been resolved already in this thread, except for number 8 which is a reasonable assumption anyway. Predicted battle outcomes are from my new combat calculator, which I plan to release soon.

3. Howitzers ignore fortresses. For this I did a test with a non-veteran Howitzer attacking an unfortified veteran Mech. Inf. in a fortress on Plains. Without the fortress bonus, the Howitzer should win essentially 100% of the time, but with the fortress bonus the Howitzer should only win 49.44% of the time. I did 15 battles and the Howitzer won every time.

10. "x2 on defense vs air" flag can be used by air and land units.

AEGIS Cruiser defense bonus vs non-missiles appears to be 3 as it says in the manual. I did a test with a veteran Stealth Bomber attacking a non-veteran AEGIS Cruiser with 16 hitpoints remaining. A multiplier of 3 predicts 47.5% wins for the Stealth Bomber; 2 predicts about 93% wins, 4 predicts about 16% wins. In my tests the Stealth Bomber won 11 of 21 battles.

For the AEGIS Cruiser defense bonus vs missiles, I conducted a test where a veteran Cruise Missile modified to have 40 hitpoints attacks a non-veteran AEGIS Cruiser. I did 100 repeats (hey, I was curious) and the Cruise Missile won 62 times. A multiplier of 5 would predict 52.92% wins for the
Cruise Missile, and a multiplier of 4.5 would predict 68.97% wins. A multiplier of 5 seems more reasonable because it's a round number and it's the same value as in the manual.

11. Ground units fortified outside a city do get a defense bonus vs. naval units. Ironclad attacks Riflemen (not in city, on grassland, both non-vets). Prediction in 88.73% wins for the Ironclad if no fortified bonus, but only 13.14% wins with the fortified bonus. Ironclad won 0 of 10 battles when Riflemen were fortified.

13. Naval units in cities do get a terrain bonus when attacked by land, sea, and air units.

Veteran Ironclad attacks non-veteran Ironclad in a port on hills. Prediction is 99.33% wins for attacker without terrain bonus, 1.85% wins with terrain bonus. Attacker won only 2 of 25 battles.

Non-veteran Fighter attacks non-veteran Ironclad in a port on hills. Prediction is 98.54% wins for attacker without terrain bonus, 32.19% wins with terrain bonus. Attacker won only 5 of 14 battles.

For an attacking land unit, the following thread (also linked to above) says the terrain bonus is in effect.
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...=&threadid=2402


Merry Christmas,

David Arndt

	27-12-2003 22:24									#166
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quote: 9. The SDI Defense bonus vs. missiles only applies in cases where a SAM Missile Battery is present and active.

No. I agree with Monk. I am not 100% sure, but I was quite cautious when creating the table in post 24.

quote: 12. To activate the fighter vs. helicopter special case, I assume that the attacking unit can be any domain, and only needs to have it's "can attack air units (fighter)" flag active.

It is completely different, see my next post.

quote: 11. Ground units fortified outside a city do get a defense bonus vs. naval units. 14. Then does the fortress defense bonus apply even when the attacker is an air unit?

I thought it was clear from the main document.
Fortification protects against any unit (also inside in the city), fortress protects against ground and naval u., city walls protects against ground units only.

quote: 13. Naval and air units in cities do not get a terrain bonus.

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I don't think there is a terrain bonus for air.

Again I thought it is clear: The terrain bonus for the defender always applies (IMHO).

quote: For an attacking land unit, the following thread (also linked to above) says the terrain bonus is in effect. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...=&threadid=2402

I don't believe it may be true. Attacker gets never a terrain bonus.

	27-12-2003 22:26									#167
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I retested all the stuff about fighters (and focusing to scenarios). Things are a little bit different than in the original text (!), indeed:

Can attack air units flag ('fighter flag'): Any domain unit with this flag can attack air units with range > 1. This also affects other combat circumstances, as follows:

	27-12-2003 22:27									#168
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I consider the following text as a correct findings and I think it should be added to the document.

quote: 3. Howitzers ignore fortresses.

I tested it and I agree.
But fortification (to be fortified) works also against howitzers.

quote: 10. A unit from any domain can have the AEGIS Cruiser defense bonus

I tested it and I agree.
Multipliers are OK IMO.

	27-12-2003 23:05									#169
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quote: Originally posted by darndt For an attacking land unit, the following thread (also linked to above) says the terrain bonus is in effect. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...=&threadid=2402 David Arndt

SlowThinker

I believe you have misunderstood David's point. Perhaps the sentence structure does not translate so well. If you examine the thread referred to, it is clear that he is referring to defending, not attacking, units getting the terrain bonus in those situations.

I think he means... "(In the case of) an attacking land unit, the following thread (indicates) the terrain bonus is in effect (for defending units in those situations)."

That said, I agree. Attacking units do not receive the bonus.

Monk

	30-12-2003 23:47									#170
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker Again I thought it is clear: The terrain bonus for the defender always applies (IMHO).

I suppose it does say that in the guide, although it doesn't emphasize that it applies to naval and air units both inside and outside cities. I did some tests myself, and it does appear that defending units from any domain always get a terrain bonus.

I tested a ground unit attacking a helicopter, a Fighter attacking a helicopter, a Fighter attacking a Bomber, a naval unit with the "can attack air units" flag attacking a bomber and the same naval unit attacking a Fighter stationed in an air base. In all these cases the defender got a terrain bonus. All of these tests were outside of cities. Another test indicates that fighters scrambling to defend a city also get a terrain bonus.

I was pretty surprised once it sunk in. I used to think I could fly my bombers wherever I wanted and it would make no difference, but I guess somehow they manage to get a terrain bonus. Any ideas how they do that? Do forest, jungle, swamp and even hills terrain have more clouds over them, providing extra cover? Can bombers fly low enough to hide behind hills, gaining an even larger defense bonus?

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I believe you have misunderstood David's point. Perhaps the sentence structure does not translate so well. If you examine the thread referred to, it is clear that he is referring to defending, not attacking, units getting the terrain bonus in those situations. I think he means... "(In the case of) an attacking land unit, the following thread (indicates) the terrain bonus is in effect (for defending units in those situations)." That said, I agree. Attacking units do not receive the bonus.

Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

David Arndt

	31-12-2003 01:06									#171
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David,

Fascinating results!!

I bet these terrain effects apply to air units because the code writers did not want to add extra lines for an air exception. Whatever, it is there, so more care needs to be taken in the choice of tiles from which a bomber attacks...so that it can better survive the counter attack. BTW, is there any terrain effect from a sea tile??

Monk

	31-12-2003 01:11									#172
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>BTW, is there any terrain effect from a sea tile??
Do you mean a plane above ocean with increased defense in rules.txt?
I bet there is.

	31-12-2003 01:22									#173
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quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker >BTW, is there any terrain effect from a sea tile?? Do you mean a plane above ocean with increased defense in rules.txt? I bet there is.

So what is the terrain bonus from a sea tile??

Monk

	31-12-2003 02:12									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk So what is the terrain bonus from a sea tile??

The default defense bonus for an ocean tile is 2, or +0% defense.
I just did a couple of tests with an ocean tile with +200% defense. I did tests with naval attacking naval, air attacking naval, and air attacking air. The ocean tile gave a defense bonus in each case.

	31-12-2003 04:00									#175
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15. I found some unusual scrambling behavior.

According to the guide:
> Note: Scrambling applies only to air units with the fighter flag.

It appears that if a non-air unit has the "can attack air units" flag and it is the primary defender of a city, the scrambling message will be displayed but the defender will not get the scrambling defense bonus. The defender will lose the SAM Missile Battery defense bonus but will still have the fortified defense bonus (if it is a ground unit) and the terrain bonus.

General: All SAMs stand down! 7th battalion, go up and shoot down those bombers!
Commander of 7th: Uh, sir? We can't fly.
General: Oh, uhh...
Commander of 7th: We're being bombed! [Explosions, line goes dead.]


Yeah, so I guess if you've designed scenario units like mobile SAMs or archers that can attack flying dragons, be aware of this problem.

David Arndt

	31-12-2003 09:45									#176
	Re: Fighters Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker 'Fighter against helicopter': Any air unit with range=0 attacked by an air unit with AI role 3 (= Air Superiority) suffers a x0.5 defense adjustment and has its firepower reduced to 1.

Hm, interesting. Thanks for that info. That leads me to...

16. Does the AI Role of a unit have any other effects on combat calculation?

	11-01-2004 11:43									#177
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This was what I like to see in a strat thread. Lots of details and a file with most of the information available.
Excellent work, thanks for the effort.

	11-01-2004 15:34									#178
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quote: Originally posted by darndt 16. Does the AI Role of a unit have any other effects on combat calculation?

Things may be diferent than we thought...
See this thread: Civ2-Creation > About the AIR SUPERIORITY role . . . :

quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos Only units with the air superiority role can intercept airlifts. They don't have to be air units, even land and sea units can intercept. And true the "can attack aircraft in flight" flag is irrelevant. Be sure to note though that the pop up text warning of a possible interception will ALWAYS show the unit in the fighter slot.

Anybody for testing and confirmation?

	07-03-2005 03:29									#179
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So far as I can see, this combat reference guide indicates that howitzers do not ignore the effect of a fortress. I think that's incorrect. Has the Marquis been heard from any time recently, or is there any way to edit to correct this?

	07-03-2005 03:46									#180
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You are right, howitzers ignore fortresses.
The Marquis' work is quite obsolete now, there is more things from this thread that should be incorporated.

If there is any volunteer that would like to rework it and create 'Info: combat II'...