26-07-2001 06:09									#1
	Which Civ2 Civ Should Be Out Of Civ3? Inflate your Upload Space

What civ. from Civ2 should be deleted from Civ3. When casting your vote please leave a post of why you voted for that particular civ to be out of Civ3.

Idea for this poll came from SerapisIV.

Last edited by TechWins on 26-07-2001 at 06:47

	26-07-2001 06:16									#2
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I voted for the Carthaginians because I feel that they weren't a huge influence on the world. They were only around for somewhat of a short period of time. They didn't accomplish all that much in their history. Plus the way that their civilization ended kind of shows that they aren't that worthy of being considered a great civ. I'm not saying that they are not a good civ, I just feel that out of all the other civs from Civ2 they deserve to be taken out the most.

	26-07-2001 06:21									#3
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Carthagians for me as well, for the same reason as Techwins mentions above, relative to the other civs they did not have such a big impact on history. Go Vikings ( they had quite a big influence on moder europe, and yes im partial )

	26-07-2001 06:36									#4
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I voted to remove the Americans in full knowledge that (1) I would likely be the only one to vote this way and (2) that there is no way that the Americans will not be included among the available civs in Civ III.

The reason that I chose the Americans is that it seems to me that America isn't a real civilization. The Americans are just an off-shoot of the English civilization; the American civilization is the result of relatively recent colonization, mostly from European civilizations, and has not earned any major distinction from them such as a new religion or a radically new language.

It simultaneously amuses and disgusts me that the American civilization, which is just a rebel colony of the British, starts off at the same time as the Babylonians or Chinese. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

I welcome all of the criticism that surely shall come.

	26-07-2001 06:56									#5
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quote: Originally posted by ostrander-bellepoint [snip] I welcome all of the criticism that surely shall come.

I voted for (against?) the Yanks too, same reason Canuckland shouldn't be in Civ3 (even though it was in *cough* CTP2).

	26-07-2001 07:36									#6
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I voted Carthaginians, they lost, they were a medium size trading power but got beat by the Romans before they could ever rise to significant prominence. We only remember them now because the Romans became so powerful and they immortalized their most ancient enemy.

	26-07-2001 07:40									#7
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About the Americans, well I'm biased but, most of the groups with the exception of the Sioux/Iroquois were at some point in their existence significant military powers, who were able to heavily influence at least one continents political history. The Americans have done that just as well as Pax Britannica, Napolean, or the Chinese, not for as long, but without the US civilization (what do you think the fundamentalists hate, American culture and lifestyle, what else is a civilization?) the current world would be very, very different place.

	26-07-2001 11:52									#8
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quote: Originally posted by ostrander-bellepoint I voted to remove the Americans in full knowledge that (1) I would likely be the only one to vote this way and (2) that there is no way that the Americans will not be included among the available civs in Civ III. The reason that I chose the Americans is that it seems to me that America isn't a real civilization. The Americans are just an off-shoot of the English civilization; the American civilization is the result of relatively recent colonization, mostly from European civilizations, and has not earned any major distinction from them such as a new religion or a radically new language. It simultaneously amuses and disgusts me that the American civilization, which is just a rebel colony of the British, starts off at the same time as the Babylonians or Chinese. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I welcome all of the criticism that surely shall come.

I concur, America does not deserve to be in Civ 3, If Firaxis wasn't in San Fransisco, then they might not of put it in.

	26-07-2001 11:59									#9
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I chose "Americans" because they really aren't a civilization. They don't have their own language and their "culture" is very similar to Western European culture. Nation status doesn't define civilization status and vice versa (Basques, Tibetans, Siberians, Iroquois, etc.). All the other civs in the game have been around much longer than the Americans. Take them out!

	26-07-2001 12:23									#10
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yanks, for all the reasons stated above....

	26-07-2001 16:47									#11
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Could someone please enlighten me as to why the Sioux/Irouqis deserve to be in civ3, im sure they had some great acheviements in order to just be a part of the discussion but as my american history isn't that great I would appreciate your info.

	26-07-2001 16:54									#12
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two words - sitting bull

	26-07-2001 17:50									#13
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I was tempted to pick the Celts because it seems unfair to have both the Celts and the nations that arose from Celtic tribes like English and French. Then I realised that at least initially, certain proud Celtic nations like the Irish, Welsh and Scots will not have their 'national' version in game so they deserve the broad option.

Carthage was a very important civilisation in its time. If Rome had not been so terrified of it that it literally erased the nation from the map I'm sure we would have heard more of them. Still, I suppose most people only know of Hannibal and assume that was their only claim to fame.

	26-07-2001 18:01									#14
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quote: It simultaneously amuses and disgusts me that the American civilization, which is just a rebel colony of the British, starts off at the same time as the Babylonians or Chinese. It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Oh but starting the British or Germans or even the Romans with the Babylonians makes perfect sense? And the Babylonians actually existing past 1000 BC and getting railroad technology? Get off your high horse. All you damn Euros think that because the Americans don't have a religion or language that they aren't a full civ.

English is the international language of air-traffic controllers, is it because of the British? No, the Americans. What are most Euro countries, particularly the French doing? Trying to keep American culture and American words (mainly computer and tech words) out. So American culture is currently the dominant threat to your own cultures as McDonalds pop open in your towns. Everyone throws stones at the Top Dog, deal with it Europe, you couldn't do a damn thing in the Balkans without American support. If the US pulled out, there isn't a damn thing Europe could or would do to stop the carnage from continuing.

	26-07-2001 18:04									#15
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Yeah, Carthaginians for me. Never really seemed to have a great impact all in all, a brief bit of glory but that was it before they got smashed to little pieces by the Romans.

	26-07-2001 18:32									#16
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Calm down Serapis. From the first glimpse of this poll it was obvious there would be at least a few votes against America. If you start lumping all "Euro's" into one collective mass to rant at you really will deserve a backlash, and this arguement has already been fought to a standstill on many other posts.

	26-07-2001 18:47									#17
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Americans should defently be in the game, while the celts don't need to be in the game!!!

But why delete a nation? The more the marrier!!! Isn't it that they say?

	26-07-2001 19:13									#18
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I see where you're coming from, Grumbold, but he makes a very good point. America has its own culture, whether people here want to admit it or not and it is one of the most influential enitities in world affairs in the modern world. Many, many things wouldn't (or couldn't) have happened in the world without the United States.

	26-07-2001 19:35									#19
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I believe I said the very same thing on a different post. But hurling accusations back and widening them to include people who didn't even refer to America is just making things worse. This needs to stop

	26-07-2001 19:56									#20
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I voted against the Americans because I knew that would piss of a lot of Americans!

I was really amused when I saw that I was not the only one!

Seriously though, I agree with ADG that there should be more civs in stead of less. At least the Dutch should be added!

	26-07-2001 20:07									#21
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Who voted for the vikings?

	26-07-2001 20:19									#22
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They're a c**p team, they deserve to be voted out

	26-07-2001 20:23									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold They're a c**p team, they deserve to be voted out

Now is when im supposed to write an angry reply and flame you is it?
BTW, does anyone know where Ralf has gone?

	27-07-2001 00:07									#24
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We have enough civs of European descent in the game. It makes sense for me to delete at least one of them to make room for a non-European civ. It just makes sense to get rid of the Americans because they have been around for only 200 years and had most of their glory in the past 70 years or so.

	27-07-2001 00:20									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Wille Could someone please enlighten me as to why the Sioux/Irouqis deserve to be in civ3, im sure they had some great acheviements in order to just be a part of the discussion but as my american history isn't that great I would appreciate your info.

I actually didn't vote for anyone of the civs, couldn't see a good reason to do so.

The Native Americans are good to have in because they were a people that were spread from the Arctic to the Equator, it makes you wonder how they would have developed if they were less nomadic? (Granted the Aztecs, and Mayans, share their origin, and developed into quite the empires for their time).

	27-07-2001 00:21									#26
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I picked the Celts for the same reason TechWins picked the Carthaginians. To me, Celts are not the Scottish.. they are nature druids and, to me, had no real significants. I would also like to say that the American civ is very vaque. American today includes Canadians, United State citizens, Mexican to some extent all of the West Hemisphere. But most people here imply that the civ Americans is only the United States... because the leaders name, city name, etc. I think that the name should change to United States, or something equal to that, or make the civ truely 'American' and add canadian, and mexican city names and leaders.

	27-07-2001 00:24									#27
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Canadians, are damn well NOT americans!!!!!!!

We share much culturally, but we are a soveriegn nation!

(Goes into a huff, stamping around, swigging some beer).

	27-07-2001 00:30									#28
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So your denying the fact that the nation of Canada is located in the North American continent? Logically Canada is an American nation.

I already know Canada is a seprate nation
The civ Americans implies to me that it includes the cultures, and peoples of the America continent. Its like.... England. We dont have 4 Civs to for england (Britan, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland) We combine the all. But those people in those areas my have a small accent diffrenece, but are not seperate nations. Thats what American civ does. It combines seperate nations in a large area together. It shouldnt.

Last edited by To_Serve_Man on 27-07-2001 at 00:37

	27-07-2001 00:35									#29
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quote: Originally posted by To_Serve_Man So your denying the fact that the nation of Canada is located in the North American continent? Logically Canada is an American nation.

No, I'm not denying that, I'm saying American, as it known the world around refers to the USA. The people who, live in the States refer to themselves, as Americans. The people who live in Canada, refer to themselves as Canadian.

You might as well say American refers to Everyone who lives in Greenland down to Argentina, as we are all Americans (north and south).

Don't get me wrong I'm not pissed off, I just thought you comment was silly.

	27-07-2001 00:38									#30
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quote: Originally posted by To_Serve_Man So your denying the fact that the nation of Canada is located in the North American continent? Logically Canada is an American nation.

I just bought BG2: Throne of Bhaal yesterday and on the box it says " European version - Not for sale in North America or Canada -this game will not install on North American or Canadian systems"