12-08-2001 06:37									#1
	Expansion Pack Civs: One more thread... (Let's do this right) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

There has been a lot of debate about which civs should have been included in Civ3 but weren't and should thus be put in an Expansion Pack (if there will ever be one). In my opinion there have been too many threads about this subject already and it's getting tiresome but I decided to start my own anyway. This is because IMHO none of the existing threads is really satisfactory: all these threads are standard vBB polls that only allow 10 options, while there are many more civs to choose from and some civs are more important than others. That's why I suggest a different system, one that allows everyone to vote for those civs which (s)he thinks are the most important. Hopefully this allows everyone to say their thing and be done with it...

I suggest we use the following system: you can post up to 16 civs that you feel should be included in an expansion pack (no more since an expansion pack is not likely to contain more and because it would only be more work to keep track of). You can post any civs you feel should be included, whether it's a big civ like Spain or a small one like Liechtenstein You can assign points to each of these civs: the more points you give, the more important you think it is for this civ to be included. You can assign at most 160 points in total and 20 to a single civ (this to prevent people from giving a lot of points to one civ and thus disrupting the 'reliability' of this poll). I'll volunteer to keep track of all posts and keep an overall ranking in this first post.

Edit: a couple of new 'rules' to avoid misunderstandings:
* If you just post civ names and no points, the points will be distributed equally among all choices. So if you post 16 names without points, all choices will get 10 points. If you post 8 names, all choices will get 20 points. If you don't agree with the points I assigned to your choices, give points yourself in the first place or change your vote afterwards (see below).
* Post an exact name: for the purpose of this thread, different names indicate different civs. Of course, it doesn't matter when you vote for Celts, Kelts or Celtic but it does matter when you post for Israeli, Jews or Hebrew. If you vote for Hebrew your points go to the Hebrew, if you vote for Israeli your points go to the Israeli, whether you think these two are the same or not (same with Turks/Ottoman, etc). If you post several names, e.g. Turks/Ottoman or Carthagian/Phoenician, all points go to the name you post first. So in the examples the points would go to Turks and Carthagian.
* If you wish to change your vote for any reason, that's possible but please don't edit your existing post or just post a new list. This would be very confusing for me to keep track of. Instead, only post the changes you wish to make. FE, if you already voted but see someone vote for the Cubans and think 'that's brilliant, why didn't I think of that?', you can change your vote by posting 'Arabs -7, Cubans +7' or something like that. Please do this even if you still have enough points left, so I can doublecheck to make sure you don't exceed the maximum number of civs/points. So if you only 'spent' 150 points over 12 civs, don't just posts 'Cubans 10' but rather 'Cubans +10'. TIA for doing so.

Some example civs to guide you in picking your civs (by no means exhaustive, feel free to post others): (Africa) Bantu, Zimbabwe, Swahili, Nigeria, Benin, Ghana, Mali, Moors, Morocco, Ethiopia/Axum, Nubia, Carthage, South Africa/Boer (Americas) Eskimo, Canada, Sioux, Cheyenne, Apache, Navajo, Hopi, Olmec, Maya, Inca, Tolmec, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina (Oceania) Maori, Aboriginals, Australia, Polynesia, Philippines, Indonesia (Asia) Khmer, Siam/Thai, Burma/Myanmar, Cambodia, Mongol, Annam/Vietnam, Korea, Tibet, Tamil, Sikh, Moghul, Kazakh, Pakistan, Parthia, Bactria, Armenia, Arabia, Hebrew, Hittites, Sumerian, Turkish/Ottomans, Byzantine, Phoenicia, Fillistines(sp?), Iraq (Europe) Spanish, Dutch, Minoan, Celts, Viking, Polish, Austria(-Hungary), Italy, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Danish, Scots, Irish, Belgium, Portuguese, Basque, Slavic, Serbia, Macedonia, Czech, Swiss, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Goths (for more: see ranking)



Here's the overall ranking (last update: Cybershy, # of votes: 51, # of points: 7734):

#	Civilizations		Points	Votes
1.	Mongols		637	40
2.	Spanish		597	38
3.	Vikings		573	37
4.	Arabs		566	37
5.	Inca		499	35
6.	Turks/Ottomans		461	35
7.	Hebrew/Israelis		344	26
8.	Celts		321	24
9.	Maya		266	24
10.	Ethiopians		253	19
11.	Carthaginians		247	18
12.	Dutch		218	18
13.	Koreans		125	9
14.	Phoenicians		180	15
15.	Portuguese		165	14
16.	Sioux/Dakota		130	12
17.	Polynesians		111	10
18.	Byzantines		97	9
19.	Khmer		94	10
20.	Mali		85	9
21.	Assyrians		80	7
22.	Australians		79	7
23.	Huns		66	6
24.	Polish		61	8
25.	Siamese		55	5
26.	Apache		54	5
27.	Aborigines		53	4
28.	Canadians		50	4
29.	Italians		50	3
30.	Tibetans		49	5
31.	Eskimos		49	4
32.	Trojans		41	3
33.	Sumerians		40	4
34.	Songhai		40	3
35.	Serbs		40	2
36.	Zimbabwe		39	4
37.	Vietnamese		37	3
38.	Ghanaians		33	3
39.	Magyar/Hungarian		32	4
40.	Philistines		30	2
41.	Philippines		30	2
42.	Mexicans		28	3
43.	Olmec		28	3
44.	Austro-Hungarians		25	3
45.	Hittites		25	3
46.	Nigerians		25	3
47.	Slavs		25	3
48.	Kushites		25	2
49.	Inuit		21	3
50.	Scandinavians		20	3
51.	Scots		20	2
52.	Bangladesh		20	1
53.	Bedouin		20	1
54.	Confederates		20	1
55.	Cuba		20	1
56.	Indonesia		20	1
57.	Iraq		20	1
58.	Kilwans		20	1
59.	Tartars		20	1
60.	Ugandians		20	1
61.	Welsh		20	1
62.	Neanderthals		18	2
63.	Hopi		16	2
64.	Nubians		16	2
65.	Cherokee		15	2
66.	Etruscs		15	2
67.	Goths		15	2
68.	Hawaiians		15	2
69.	Navaho		15	2
70.	Yankees		15	2
71.	Anasazi		15	1
72.	Native Americans		14	2
73.	Berbers		13	2
74.	Boers		13	2
75.	Hmong		13	2
76.	Tunguz		13	2
77.	Mesopotamians		12	1
78.	Argentinians		10	1
79.	Armenia		10	1
80.	Bantu		10	1
81.	Harappan		10	1
82.	Indus Valley People		10	1
83.	Javans		10	1
84.	Maori		10	1
85.	Columbians		7	1
86.	Kazakhs		5	1

Last edited by Locutus on 14-08-2001 at 05:41

	12-08-2001 06:37									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My personal choices (most, if not all, of these civs have been discussed before so I won't bother to explain my choices):

1. Zimbabwe - 10
2. Mali - 8
3. Nubia - 6
4. Olmec - 6
5. Maya - 15
6. Polynesia - 8
7. Khmer - 8
8. Mongol - 15
9. Arabia - 15
10. Hebrew - 10
11. Turkish - 10
12. Phoenicia - 15
13. Spanish - 12
14. Dutch - 10
15. Viking - 6
16. Polish - 6

	12-08-2001 06:56									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Heres what i'd like to see included:

1. Assyrian - 15
2. Spanish - 15
3. Vinking - 15
4. Celtic - 15
5. Inca - 14
6. Zimbabwee - 14
7. Mongol - 13
8. Mesopotamian - 12
9. Turkish - 10
10. Mexican - 10
11. Australian - 10
12. Carthaginian - 8
13. Native American - 4
14. Sioux - 3
15. Huns - 1
16. Byzantines - 1

	12-08-2001 08:25									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

1. Mali-20
2. Phoenicians- 10
3. Turks/Ottomans-10
4. Arabs-10
5. Hebrews-10
6. Viking-16
7. Ghana-12
8. Dutch-13
9. Inca-13
10. Mongol-20
11. Byzantines-20

	12-08-2001 08:26									#5
	Here are my votes! Put an end to popups!

1) Spanish - 20
2) Celts - 20
3) Mongols - 20
4) Ethiopia - 20
5) Vikings - 20
6) Turkish - 10
7) Hebrews - 10
8) Inca - 10
9) Portugal - 5
10)Poland - 5
11) Navaho - 5
12)Polynesian - 5
13)Carthage - 5
14) Arabia - 5

	12-08-2001 08:28									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Here's what I would like to see:

1. Spanish
2. Vikings
3. Mongols
4. Celts
5. Hebrews
6. Assyrians
7. Carthaginians/Phoenicians
8. Hittites
9. Maya
10. Turks
11. Arabs/Saracens
12. Philistines
13. Olmecs
14. Polish
15. Polynesians
16. Koreans

Keep in mind, in an expansion, I wouldn't expect more than 8 civs.

	12-08-2001 09:02									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

In fact I would like to see all. However for this, here is my list.

1. Spain
2. Nigeria
3. Mali
4. Ethiopia
5. Maya
6. Inca
7. Brazil
8. Sioux
9. Apache
10. Cherokee Loctus you miss this one, plus my G.GreatGrand Mother was one.
11. Mongol
12. Tibet Was an Empire before China was united.
13. Portuguese
14. Celts
15. Viking
16. Arabia

	12-08-2001 09:27									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

Obviously, the ULTIMATE SOLUTION is for Firaxis to build into Civ 3 the ability for us to ADD OUR OWN CUSTOM CIVS -- as many as we want! -- the playable mix in a standard, random map game!

I AM STILL HOPING THAT THEY WILL DO THIS (are you listening, Firaxis?)!

But, if they don't, a Civ expansion pack as you describe would me the next best thing and NECESSARY because, without the ability to play with the and against the Civs that I want, I will not buy the game. So, here's my top 16 Civs NOT YET INCLUDED in Civ 3:

1. Celts (an amalgam of the Irish, Scots, and Welsh) - 20
2. Arabs (an amalgam of all the Arab nations, from Iraq down to Aden and west to Morocco) - 20
3. Israelis (NOT Hebrews!) - 20
4. Incans - 10
5. Spanish - 10
6. Confederates (capital = Richmond, all Southern US cities, circa 1861) - 20
7. Yankees (capital = Washington, all Northern US Cities, circa 1861) - 5
8. Polynesians - 10
9. Austro-Hungarians - 10
10. Portuguese (include Brazilian cities) - 5
11. Turks - 10
12. Byzantines - 5
13. Scandinavians (an amalgam of Norwegians, Swedes, Finns, Danes, and Icelanders) - 5
14. Mongols - 3
15. Dutch - 3
16. Ethiopians - 4

Oh, and if this expansion pack will be offered, please change Britain back to England if you are going to have Queen Elizabeth as the leader OR if it is to remain Britain, change the leader to Queen Victoria!

Lose the ahistorical black as coal Pharoah!

The French leader ought to be Louis the XIV (the Sun king) or Napoleon, NOT Joan of Arc!

The American leader ought to be George Washington NOT Abe Lincoln!

The Russian leader ought to be Peter the Great NOT Lenin!

The Chinese leader ought not to be the butcher Mao!

NOTE: I didn't realize you were supposed to allocate 160 pts when I first posted, so I just edited this post and allocated them!

Last edited by Arator on 12-08-2001 at 22:34

	12-08-2001 09:59									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Viking 20
Magyar 10
Spanish 15
Inca 15
Maya 10
Anasazi 15
Maori 10
Hawaiian 5
Australian Aborigine 10
Hebrew 20
Arab 15
Ethiopian 3
Boer 3
Berber 3
Hmong 3
Tibetan 3

	12-08-2001 16:23									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

And here's mine:

1. Maya - 20
2. Inca - 20
3. Siux - 20
4. Philippines - 20
5. Japan - 15
6. Australian - 15
7. Spanish - 15
8. Apache - 12
9. Brazil - 10
10. Mexico - 8
11. Scandinavians - 5

	12-08-2001 17:03									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Excellent lists guys, some choices there that I hadn't even thought of myself. Hmm, a clear top 3 formed already (hasn't really changed since Tis I's post I think) and the top 8 is also becoming fairly stable by Brent's post. Below that, things still change rapidly.

Tis I,
FYI, you have 6 points left. Of course there's no necessity to 'spend' all points but since everyone else did, I thought I'd mention it. On the Turks/Ottomans choice: I gave all points to the Turks (see new rules below).

Alexander,
I gave all civs 10 points, including the Carthaginians and Arabs, Phoenicians and Saracens didn't get any points (se new rules).

Joseph,
I gave all civs 10 points. As I said, the list I gave above is by no means exhaustive. I had a list of dozens of Native American tribes in front of me and couldn't possibly post them all, so I just randomly selected a couple of 'big ones'. Same goes for the Middle Eastern civs BTW.

Arator,
I gave all your civs 10 points as well.
I agree, but even if the number of custom civs is unlimited (which remains to be seen), it's still possible that Firaxis might bring out an expansion pack to make some of the fan-made civs 'official'. It's a good idea to see what civs people want in any case.

Brent,
Very, uhmm, alternative list. I like it. Must admit I never even heard of the Hmong though...

ADG,
You just posted a few minutes too late. Started updating the list just before you posted. I'll add you in a moment though. However, Japan is already in Civ3, so I'm gonna have to ignore that one. Feel free to post an update to your list though...

All,
In processing the votes I encountered a couple of issues that require new 'rules'. These rules serve mostly to avoid misunderstandings, I hope noone objects to them:
* If you just post civ names and no points, the points will be distributed equally among all choices. So if you post 16 names without points, all choices will get 10 points. If you post 8 names, all choices will get 20 points. If you don't agree with the points I assigned to your choices, give points yourself in the first place or change your vote afterwards (see below).
* Post an exact name: for the purpose of this thread, different names indicate different civs. Of course, it doesn't matter when you vote for Celts, Kelts or Celtic but it does matter when you post for Israeli, Jews or Hebrew. If you vote for Hebrew your points go to the Hebrew, if you vote for Israeli your points go to the Israeli, whether you think these two are the same or not (same with Turks/Ottoman, etc). If you post several names, e.g. Turks/Ottoman or Carthagian/Phoenician, all points go to the name you post first. So in the examples the points would go to Turks and Carthagian.
* If you wish to change your vote for any reason, that's possible but please don't edit your existing post or just post a new list. This would be very confusing for me to keep track of. Instead, only post the changes you wish to make. FE, if you already voted but see someone vote for the Cubans and think 'that's brilliant, why didn't I think of that?', you can change your vote by posting 'Arabs -7, Cubans +7' or something like that. Please do this even if you still have enough points left, so I can doublecheck to make sure you don't exceed the maximum number of civs/points. So if you only 'spent' 150 points over 12 civs, don't just posts 'Cubans 10' but rather 'Cubans +10'. TIA for doing so.

	12-08-2001 17:42									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Celtic
Viking
Sumerian
Harappan
Turkish
Arabian
Hebrew
Berber/Carthiginian
Incan
Mayan
Hittite
Inuit
Polynesian
Sioux
Spanish
Dutch

	12-08-2001 17:50									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

1. Khmer - 20 Points
2. Kilwans - 20 Points (You may add them to the non-existent "Swahili" if you like)
3. Kushites - 20 Points
4. Songhai - 20 Points
5. Incas - 20 Points
6. Magyars - 10 Points
7. Spanish - 10 Points
8. Mongols - 10 Points
9. Polynesians - 10 Points
10. Phoenicians - 10 Points
11. Celts - 10 Points

	12-08-2001 18:40									#14
	Support Apolyton

Arabs: 18
Incas: 18
Spanish: 18
Mongols:14
Vikings: 14
Ethiopians: 14
Mayans: 10
Javans: 10
Carthaginians: 10
Turks: 7
Mali: 7
Dutch: 7
Vikings: 7
Apache: 2
Hungarians: 2
Khmer: 2

	12-08-2001 18:46									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hungarians -2, Magyars +2 (just to avoid any mixups.)

	12-08-2001 19:12									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

Gibraltarians 160 - err, ....

Ethiopians 20
Dutch 20
Arabs 20
Incas 18
Vikings 15
Sioux 12
Spanish 10
Turks 9
Polynesians 8
Mongols 7
Hopi 6
Khmer 5
Ghanese 4
Tunguz 3
Inuit 2
Celts 1

	12-08-2001 19:13									#17
	Here are mine: Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

15 Spanish
15 Dutch
15 Portuguese
15 Viking
15 Inca
10 Canadian
10 Celtic
10 Arabia
10 Mongol
10 Italian
10 Scots
10 Zimbabwe
5 Australian
5 Mayan
5 Turks

	12-08-2001 19:39									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Arabs: 20
Ethiopians: 20
Inca: 20
Mongols: 20
Polynesians: 20
Spanish: 20
Turkish: 20
Vikings: 20

	12-08-2001 20:03									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Locutus ADG, However, Japan is already in Civ3, so I'm gonna have to ignore that one. Feel free to post an update to your list though...

Couldn't remember (and was to lazy to check ) so I thought, it was better to give it some points just incase it wasn't in the game

	12-08-2001 20:04									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

BTW, while I see the danger of disrupting the 'reliability' of this poll, it would have been nice to be able to assign up to 40 points (1/4 of my total vote) to a single civ. Reason: I donīt think that an expansion pack will include more than 8 civs, yet feel that some of my suggested additional civs are more important than others.

However, many thanks for starting this thread, Locutus.

	12-08-2001 20:10									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

1. Celts - 20 Points of Course
2. Welsh - 20 Points (i'm biased)
3. Spanish - 15 Points
4. Vikings - 15 points
5. Mongols - 15 Points
6. Ottoman Turks - 15 Points
7. Arabs - 10 Points
8. Dutch - 10 Points
9. Portugese - 10 Points
10. Byzantines - 10 Points
11. AustroHungary - 10 Points

Oh and people join the anti Britain in Civ3 campaign !!!!

	12-08-2001 20:23									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Spanish 15
Mongol 15
Viking 10
Inca 15
Arabia 20
Celtic 15
Maya 10
Hebrew 20
Mali 10
Phoenicia 10
Khmer 10
Nubia 10

	12-08-2001 20:25									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

Couldn't you give negative points, cuz there's 2 civs I don't want to see in the game...I know if those come into the game I have some enemies from the start, civs I wont sign a peace treate with in any game played!?!

	12-08-2001 20:34									#24
	Support Apolyton

1) Mongol 20
2) Spainish 20
3) Inca 15
4) Arabia 15
5) Celtic 12
6) Hebrew 12
7) Huns 20
8) Viking 12
9) Turkish 12
10) Byzanitines 11
11) Tibet 11 (what the hell!)

	12-08-2001 20:39									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

hey this is like eurovision!

1) Mongol - 20
2) Spanish - 20
3) Arabs - 20
4) Slavs - 10
5) Hebrew - 10
6) Carthage - 10
7) Aboriginals - 10
7) Polynesia - 10
8) Goths - 10
9) Viking - 10
10) Armenia - 10
11) Ethiopia - 5
12) Celts - 5
13) Phoenicia - 5
14) Sumerian - 5

	12-08-2001 20:58									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, here is my list:

Spanish 20
Mongol 20
Viking 20
Arabia 20
Turkish 20
Dutch 20
Apache 20
Portugal 20

I hope this expansion pack will come out soon! Or if not, that at least they will make an option that you can choose civs made in the editor to choose from in the standard game!

	12-08-2001 21:23									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Here's my 'vote':

1.Vikings: 20 points
2.Celts: 18 points
3.Mongols: 16 points
4.Songhai: 15 points
5.Assyrians: 15 points
6.Carthaginians: 15 points
7.Incas: 11 points
8.Spanish: 10 points
9.Ottomans: 9 points
10.Hebrews: 7 points
11.Arabs: 6 points
12.Portugese: 5 points
13.Australians: 4 points
14.Khmer: 4 points
15.Mayas: 3 points

Great list by the way!

	12-08-2001 21:34									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The problem with this Poll is that some civers doesnt seems to realize that Civs in an official expansion-pack must be weighted against each other, and they must be placeable 3 of them in each of the 5 main cultures.

Check out the civ-specific abilities table. Two X-values in either of the 5 abilities; militaristic, commercial, expansionist, scientific, religious & industrious. And 3 civs in either of the 5 coloured culture-spheres.

Also; you can hopefully always download Civ-modpacks already a month or so after the official release, so I dont think you have to wait that long. Anyway; perhaps you should remodel this Poll with above in mind, and start again?

	12-08-2001 21:34									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Votes updated up to Snapcase (you guys are posting way too fast! ). Since many civs have an equal amount of votes, I started to count the number of votes casted on each civ as well. If the # of points are a draw, # of votes determines the ranking (if that's a draw too, just plain old alphabetical order will have to do, unless someone knows another way to rank the civs).

Al'Kimiya,
I gave your Berber/Carthaginian votes to the Berber, in accordance with the new rules. All civs get 10 points.

Snapcase,
Kilwans will do just fine. I'm pleasantly surprised to find that anyone else actually knows Swahili isn't really a civ but just a language.

ADG,
Hehe, you still don't know the Civ3 civs by heart? You heretic! Anyway, as I said, because of this you still have 15 points to spend if you'd like to...
I don't see a real reason for negative points: what reason could there possibly be to not include certain civs (other than them not being significant enough to deserve a place)?

Lockstep,
I can see your point, I choose the 20 limit rather arbitrary I'm afraid but it had to be set at something. Personally I'd say 40 is too high, but I guess 30 or so might have been possible (I actually doubted between 20 and 32 when setting that limit). Anyway, it's too late to change it now, too many people have already voted...

Markos,
Yeah, I noticed that too. I already considered announcing my vote with 'And here are the results of the Dutch jury' but I figured I'd give someone else the opportunity to make that joke. Still waiting though...

	12-08-2001 21:47									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ralf The problem with this Poll is that some civers doesnt seems to realize that Civs in an official expansion-pack must be weighted against each other, and they must be placeable 3 of them in each of the 5 main cultures.

ralf, lets leave it to Firaxis to do the "weightening"(if that's the word). we're just posting here what we would like to see.....

besides, since we've got people from all around the world, as we sum up the votes the... "weightening" is done "automatically"


btw locutus, if you're going to suggest minoans and macedonians, you might also suggest mycenaean, spartans, athenians, doreans, ioanians, thebeans, etc
hey, lets' forget the spanish and the mongol! firaxis should an expansion pack on Ancient Greece!!!