14-08-2001 04:52									#31
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Well I've seen everything now, Sid with a beard.

I see only two sets of fighters and bombers same as civ2 which is bad I was hoping for some Migs in there.

Waiting a while for the battleship is good.

A lot different then civ2 will have to take some getting used to.

I heard about there being a rules.txt which is great! Simple to add a few more fighters in there somewhere
And for gods sake shipe with a sprite maker that doesn't take 30 minutes to use

	14-08-2001 05:00									#32
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OK, if you look at fission, it allows a nuclear bomb, but not a missile. Perhaps, to begin with, you have to drop them from bombers. There seem to be some missile like structures under Rocketry that could allow you to fit such a warhead to a missile.

There seems to be a more sophisticated fighter under Rocketry as well, probably a jet fighter, as if you look at Flight it just allows a basic prop-based fighter. And once you reach Stealth you get the better fighters.

Scientific method now appears to give Darwin's Voyage as Railroad is gone.

Some of these later space-based ones are a total enigma as to what they provide. Although I notice three tank like structures under motorised transportation, computing and synthetic fibres. Perhaps the latter allows more sophisticated armour for modern tanks?!

I am trying to figure out what Robotics allows. There is a ship and then some kind of tank thing. I think it is a motorised artillery, a la Civ1...

	14-08-2001 05:41									#33
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quote: Nationalism is a government taking the place of Fundamentalism.

I'll saw it for about the millionth time. Nationalism has not been confirmed as a gov. choice yet! Nor has it even been mentioned as a gov. choice. The legend of Nationalism being a gov. choice was arisen from Apolyton. If you can prove me wrong then do so.

quote: And I know these shots are not necessarily from an actual game, Republic has not yet been discovered from the Ancient tech tree, but the Middle Age tech tree has already begun being researched.

That doens't mean anything. You don't neccesarily have to discover the whole Ancient tech tree befor you can continue your research onto the Middle Age tech tree. All you have to do is discover most of the techs in the Ancient tech tree. The same applies to all other time periods within the tech tree.

	14-08-2001 05:51									#34
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins I'll saw it for about the millionth time. Nationalism has not been confirmed as a gov. choice yet! Nor has it even been mentioned as a gov. choice. The legend of Nationalism being a gov. choice was arisen from Apolyton.

Besides, it would be kinda silly to put one gov't directly preceding another...

quote: You don't neccesarily have to discover the whole Ancient tech tree befor you can continue your research onto the Middle Age tech tree.

I believe it was mentioned that there was going to be "key" techs to research before movin' on up to an other era.

	14-08-2001 05:56									#35
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Ah, I can't see what's under flight, to me it looked like some sort of Stealth bomber but obviously not

That's great then.

	14-08-2001 06:03									#36
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins ... You don't neccesarily have to discover the whole Ancient tech tree befor you can continue your research onto the Middle Age tech tree. All you have to do is discover most of the techs in the Ancient tech tree. The same applies to all other time periods within the tech tree.

If that is true, it is too bad. I like the idea of having to complete an age before you can move on to the next one. It seems silly to let someone drill too far forward (eg getting "Engineering" before they have "Literature") and without inter-age pre-requisites some of the advances don't make sense (eg. allowing chivalry before you have horseback riding).

Hopefully you've got more confidence than facts.

	14-08-2001 06:22									#37
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quote: Hopefully you've got more confidence than facts.

It's a fact that you don't have to discover the whole tech tree for one period of time to advance into the next tech tree. You only have to discover key techs (like warm beer mentioned). Such as you would have to discover horseback riding in the ancient tech tree to discover chivalry in the middle ages. If you look at the screenshot for the ancient tech tree you will notice that only the Republic hasn't been discovered. This might be the only tech in the ancient tech tree that you don't have to discover in order to advance to the middle ages tech tree. I'm guessing that in each tech tree period you will have to at least discover 75% (flexible number) of the techs before you will be able to advance into the next tech tree period.

	14-08-2001 06:50									#38
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins I'll saw it for about the millionth time. Nationalism has not been confirmed as a gov. choice yet! Nor has it even been mentioned as a gov. choice. The legend of Nationalism being a gov. choice was arisen from Apolyton. If you can prove me wrong then do so.

Taken Directly from IGN preview:
Rather than paying a production upkeep for your units, you will pay gold instead. This frees up shields for production but puts a slightly higher strain on your economy. The solution to this lies in the game's new government, Nationalism. Available later in the game, Nationalism is analogous to the ideology of early nineteenth century Europe. Think Napoleon here. To switch to Nationalism your culture rating must be quite high. The benefit of Nationalism is that you can mobilize your economy for war or peace.

http://pc.ign.com/previews/12062.html

quote: Originally posted by TechWins That doens't mean anything. You don't neccesarily have to discover the whole Ancient tech tree befor you can continue your research onto the Middle Age tech tree. All you have to do is discover most of the techs in the Ancient tech tree. The same applies to all other time periods within the tech tree.

I was merely responding to a post by Ribannah stating that all techs were needed in the previous age.

	14-08-2001 07:03									#39
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It seems bleeding obvious to me that this tech tree, while showing all the techs, does not show all the stuff that goes with each tech. However, you can see exactly how much is missing, because the spots for everything are there, its just they haven't made all the icons (and some of the ones they have made are works in progress ). Take a look at Masonry: there is a blank spot and then two things. Clearly something will be going in the blank spot. There are tons of white spaces all over where things will still fit in.

So what will take up those spots? Clearly there are a lot of wonders missing. There are supposed to be something like 12 major wonders and 24 minor ones (correct me here, I'm fuzzy on the exact numbers), but there are nowhere near that number of wonders shown, and some of the ones we know of from other sources aren't seen here (like the Grand Canal). Also, lots of tile improvements are missing, with only 2 or 3 showing (the round balls, like Fortification under Construction). The tech tree also shows when things become obsolete, by putting a red X through it (like Lighthouse becoming obsolete with Magnetism), so there are lots of those still needed. When certain trade goods become available may also explain a lot of the spots - I imagine that explains many of the missing spots in the ancient age.

The units and buildings appear more complete, but even those are probably incomplete. For instance, I can't see how the game can be without Diplomats and Spies, and having a Diplomat would explain one of the many spaces for Writing. It seems probable also that all the special units will find their way onto this tree, and that most of them aren't shown yet (I'm guessing the British special unit is one of the three ships available with Magnetism). There also seems to be an order to which type of thing gets shown first, from right to left after the picture of the tech, and units first, so the missing Masonry item is probably a unit.

Nationalism or Communism seems a logical place to put the "guerrilla effect". Effects like this (of which there were many in Civ2, like +1 naval movement with Nuclear Power) might also show up with some kind of symbol on the final tree. It may be that the Partisan unit isn't on the tree because it can't be built, or it could be a not-shown unit.

I second the notion that they're going for quality over quantity in techs. It seems like there is no tech that doesn't have at least one effect, judging by the white spaces.

Let the speculation on what belongs in those white spaces begin! For instance, shouldn't the trade good Iron and the special unit Legion both go under Iron Working?

	14-08-2001 08:03									#40
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I agree with you harlan, just the same though, does anyone here have a program to enlarge these pictures without losing the resolution? Is such a thing possible? If we could get a better look at these we could get a better (albeit incomplete) look at this new tech tree.
Can anyone out there help us all out and enlarge these pictures?

	14-08-2001 11:19									#41
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I can't believe it! Some of my favorite techs from Civ2 are gone:
- Bridge Building (building bridges across rivers with construction?, maybe?)
- Explosives (no upgrades for workers, no engineers??? )
- Labor Union (no mechanized infantry, or does it have other prereq?)
- Leadership, Tactics (no more advanced horseback warriors?)
- Railroad (building railroads now with industrialization, I guess; and no Darwin's Voyage?)

6 techs less then in Civ2? I'm not sure if I'm happy with this. Actually I'm not happy at all. Now I'll have to wait longer to make a discovery.

Last edited by Tiberius on 14-08-2001 at 11:29

	14-08-2001 11:53									#42
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shum00 and others who believe in nationalism as a government

check out gamespot uk

according to this preview nationalism is a tech

quote: Armies come into play in one of two ways. The most common is via the researching of nationalism, one of the few new additions to the tech tree. Once discovered, nationalism enables you to put your economy in one of three different states: mobilised, normal, or peace.

either way firaxis hasn't confirmed it so we just don't really know

as for the tech tree...it looks like they cut down on the size, and it also looks like they cut out many of the units in the game how this will effect gameplay has yet to be seen...

Tiberius

from the screen shots, most likely mech infantry is now represented by an APC icon and found under robotics

	14-08-2001 12:17									#43
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quote: from the screen shots, most likely mech infantry is now represented by an APC icon and found under robotics

I see. But what are those tank-like looking units under Computers and Synthetic Fibers?

Also there is no Internet as a tech. Is it a Wonder, maybe?
Oh, I just realized: Computers is before Miniaturization! How comes that? How do you build computers without miniaturization? Let's say you can build chips with electronics, but then what "miniaturization" stands for ?

	14-08-2001 12:38									#44
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Tiberius

i think those tank looking things under computers are a self propelled artillary icon that stands for howitzers...i think the tanks under Synthetic Fibers are just modern Main Battle Tanks...i think the tank under motorized transport is an early ww2 tank, and most likely this will be the german panzer

	14-08-2001 12:39									#45
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Does anyone have the ability to enlarge this?

	14-08-2001 13:01									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Wille If you look closely you can see on some of the advances that it says an amount of turns. I noticed this on the brown and green coloured ones, this probably tells you how many turn it takes to research the advance.

I think we can research several tech at the same time. If you look at the picture of the Middle Ages tech tree, Monotheism in the start of the page have a number of turns displayed. The same has Invention(with another color ) and the republic on the ancient tech tree. Only theese three has numbers, the other are either blue(researched) or brown(not researched) and without numbers.

Therefore I think it is a big likelihood that the ones with numbers are in research now. (if I just could explain the green ones. They are confusing. )

	14-08-2001 13:01									#47
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Looking at the Ancient Times Tech tree on the Civ3.com site the missing images are there. In Construction the GW is missing in the above picture but on the site it is there. Also in masonary there is an image missing - not sure what it is. It might be a case of if the wonder has been built then it is taken off the tree. Not sure.

What is the 'gold coin' image on Construction for?

Also what is the tech after Nuclear Power and before Smart Weapons? To me it looks like 'The Lover' which would be interesting....

	14-08-2001 13:10									#48
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quote: Also what is the tech after Nuclear Power and before Smart Weapons? To me it looks like 'The Lover' which would be interesting....

hehe how funny!

that tech is "The Laser" not "The Lover"

either that or your girl friend is about to go ballatic on your ass for playing civ3 too much

the "gold coin" under construction is the ability to build fortifications with your workers

gold coin under steam power is the ability to build railroads
gold coin under engineering is unidentified

	14-08-2001 13:23									#49
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The Laser makes more sense but less fun...

	14-08-2001 14:21									#50
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And what would be the unit associated with the "Lover" tech ?

	14-08-2001 14:25									#51
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over at pc.ign they posted some new screen shots, one of them was a larger version of the ancient tech tree posted on gamespot and it can be found here

http://pcmedia.ign.com/media/previe...ge/civ3_005.jpg

	14-08-2001 14:42									#52
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quote: Originally posted by SITS gold coin under engineering is unidentified

It is probably bridge building

	14-08-2001 14:44									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Gone (17) Automobile Bridge Building Combined Arms Conscription Explosives Fundamentalism Fusion Power Guerilla Warfare Labor Union Leadership Machine Tools Plastics Railroad Refrigeration Seafaring Tactics Trade Renamed (7) Environmentalism -> Ecology Genetic Engineering -> Genetics Mobile Warfare -> Motored Transportation Literacy -> Literature Nuclear Fission -> Fission Steam Engine -> Steam Power University -> Education New (11) Free Artistry Integrated Defense Military Tradition Music Theory Nationalism Printing Press Replaceable Parts Satellites Scientific Method Smart Weapons Synthetic Fibers Sadly still missing (top 8) Canal Building Colonialism Hydraulics Logistics The Mill The Plough Psychology Tourism

Just my two cents.

I think synthetic fibres are a replacement for plastics. I don't agree with the prereqs for them either - if anything they should be swapped around - concern over waste plastics leading to environmental initatives and recycling. Synthetic fibres should definitely be linked to refining or chemistry plus another tech - not sure which one off hand but not ecology.

I'm a little curious as to the reasoning behind some of your 'sadly missing techs' Canal building and the Mill - yep can see where they would be useful and fit into the game, same with Colonialism. The Plough - I think that tech is kind of implied by the ability to build irrigated land, which you can do at the start. I think logistics is kind of encapsulated by Nationalism. After all nationalism gives you armies which presumably is where logistics would come into play in a Civ game. Tourism, hydraulics and Psychology - nice ideas but I'm not sure where they would fit in. Tourism is all part and parcel of culture I think - famous old cultural buildings being good tourist traps

Meant to be constructive criticism rather than a flame attack - feel free to blow my arguments out of the water!

Rich.

	14-08-2001 14:52									#54
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Were are all non military units? I hope this tech tree is incomplete because I can't find my favorite unit from CTP, The corporation branch.
And I thought that Civ3 was more off a "peace" game, and what better unit are there than the corporation branch, lawyer, TV engivalist or a unit to manipulate whit other civs culture. I haven't heard anything about a "peace" unit, can somebody please tell me that I am wrong?
When a played CTP my favorite strategy in the modern era was to flood my enemy whit lawyers and corporation branches crippling there production rate.

	14-08-2001 14:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I see. But what are those tank-like looking units under Computers and Synthetic Fibers? Also there is no Internet as a tech. Is it a Wonder, maybe? Oh, I just realized: Computers is before Miniaturization! How comes that? How do you build computers without miniaturization? Let's say you can build chips with electronics, but then what "miniaturization" stands for ?

You build mechanical ones and then ones based on vacuum tubes and stuff. World War 2 codebreaking / Manhattan Project technology style. Slow, clunky but faster than doing it by hand. Miniaturization presumably represents the development of chips, making computers more useful and widespread.

Rich.

	14-08-2001 15:14									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase Let's start from the beginning and analyse the entire thing. What do each and every one of the Icons mean? Are the connections between techs logical?

Havn't looked at the icons too much. Most of the connections look OK to me with a couple of things I would change - see below. A few of the names seem a bit out of place, for example I don't like 'replaceable parts' as a major tech. I preferred 'machine tools' from Civ 2 and I presume they are much the same thing? But that's just me

Now for the changes:

I don't like having chemistry as a prereq for physics (and this is a chemist talking here ). Doesn't seem especially logical to me. The old Civ 2 prereqs of maths and astronomy (?) were better but this is not directly possible now.

Not sure why electronics is a prereq for motorised transport. Steel, or electricity would make more sense IMO.

I would prefer miniturization rather than computers to lead to the laser. Would fit in better with computers being relatively primitive vacuum tube machines, and miniturization representing solid state computers/electronics. Probably just me being nit picking, in game terms I don't think there would be much difference.

Rich.

	14-08-2001 15:25									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius And what would be the unit associated with the "Lover" tech ?

No unit - but allows Contraception wonder in combination with medicine

Rich.

	14-08-2001 15:40									#58
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Sorry, double post

	14-08-2001 15:41									#59
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Ok, so computers before miniaturization means vacuum tubes (and stuff ) made computers. But were these computers so important to appear in the Tech Tree before miniaturization? When I say "computer" I think to a chip-based computer, and I bet 99% of people think in the same way.
Weren't the chip-based computers those who changed the world?
And in Civ2 Miniaturization was before Computers. Why did they change this?

	14-08-2001 15:47									#60
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quote: No unit - but allows Contraception wonder in combination with medicine

...and the consequences: increased happiness but pop. growth slows down