14-08-2001 16:35									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius Ok, so computers before miniaturization means vacuum tubes (and stuff ) made computers. But were these computers so important to appear in the Tech Tree before miniaturization? When I say "computer" I think to a chip-based computer, and I bet 99% of people think in the same way. Weren't the chip-based computers those who changed the world? And in Civ2 Miniaturization was before Computers. Why did they change this?

Who can tell why they changed it. I think it makes more sense the new way but I doubt that they feel particularly vindicated because of this

As for importance - yeah I think they're important enough to be in there - they're about at the 'radio' or 'machine tools' level - not exactly on a par with the wheel or iron working but pretty important. Partly this is historical - they were the forerunners of modern chip based computers - which I agree have changed the world. But don't forget that chip based computers can be regarded as a 'mere' technological improvement. A lot of the theory and ideas behind computers had to be worked out first in order to build the old mechanical ones, so I guess its this theoretical knowledge that could count as the 'computer' advance, as well as the engineering required to build one.

Also bear in mind that computers evolved from mechanical, to valve based, to circuit board (big transistors soldered to a circuit board), to integrated circuit based. I would count the first three as 'computers' in Civ terms and the last as 'miniaturization'

Plus the early computers were pretty significant in their own right. Three examples off the top of my head - the British WW2 codebreaking effort, the Manhattan project and the development of Chaos Theory. The last one is pretty cool - the guy that developed the theory ( I forget his name - shame on me) could run his equation on what looked like an old telephone exchange - lots of plug in wires) and his output would either be a pattern on an oscilloscope, or a speaker. He could literally listen to his equation evolve! Well I thought it was cool anyway

By the way this is all dredged up from popular science books read a while back. If anyone knows more about this than me (not too hard) *please* feel free to correct me.

Rich.

Sorry about the long post - guess I got carried away.

	14-08-2001 17:19									#62
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Frankly I think that quite a few of the tech paths are bizarre and nonsensical. Many seem to be inaccurate or based exclusively on Western historical development (like needing monotheism to obtain printing). Likewise the tree seems surprisingly short and there is no sign of future tech to keep research valuable when you hit the top of the proper tree. I could nit pick all day but I imagine these choices have been made to supply the players with more than one obvious path. I note that there is only one more tech involved in reaching republic than monarchy, for example, but they are on totally different paths so you have to make choices about what is more important to you. Go straight for republic and you risk being crushed by the culturally deficient but militarily superior despots or monarchs. If the choice had to be between accuracy and playability, I will happily go with playability.

	14-08-2001 17:27									#63
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quote: Originally posted by BigRich I think synthetic fibres are a replacement for plastics.

Not all plastics are fibres, and not all (synthetic) fibres are plastics. Plastics as a prerequisite for this new tech would make more sense IMHO.

quote: I'm a little curious as to the reasoning behind some of your 'sadly missing techs' Canal building and the Mill - yep can see where they would be useful and fit into the game, same with Colonialism. The Plough - I think that tech is kind of implied by the ability to build irrigated land, which you can do at the start. I think logistics is kind of encapsulated by Nationalism. After all nationalism gives you armies which presumably is where logistics would come into play in a Civ game. Tourism, hydraulics and Psychology - nice ideas but I'm not sure where they would fit in. Tourism is all part and parcel of culture I think - famous old cultural buildings being good tourist traps

The Plough stands for the later version (based on Iron Working and The Wheel) which greatly increased food production (partly via the Three Field System). As an incentive (and incorporating necessary knowledge) it leads to The Mill (with Construction).

Logistics (from Industrialization and Explosives) is what makes things be in the right place at the right time, and has little to do with Nationalism IMHO. I would have it allow two units: Sappers and Transport, and have it lead to Radio (as an incentive instead of Flight, with Electricity) and Algorithms.

Tourism (from Advanced Flight, and Labor Union to negotiate the necessary holidays) should indeed fit in Civ3's cultural package. Of course it also allows the wonder Disney World to be built

Hydraulics (from Refining and Steel) would essentially take the place of Combustion, IMHO it is more to the point and far more encompassing. Apart from Automobile and Flight it also leads to Refrigeration (and, in the nearby future, the Cargo Pipeline). Both Artillery and Submarine arrive with Hydraulics, as does the Offshore Platform.

Psychology does not stand alone, so it may be too much too ask for. I would have it link Biology and Human Rights to Cybernetics (with Robotics, allows SS Modules), Pharmacology (with The Corporation, wonder: Contraception) and Social Security (with Labor Union, allows cultural options).

Hope this explains my wish-list

	14-08-2001 17:37									#64
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quote: Originally posted by skalman Were are all non military units? I hope this tech tree is incomplete because I can't find my favorite unit from CTP, The corporation branch. And I thought that Civ3 was...

Civ3 is not a sequel to Call to Power, off course you knew that?

	14-08-2001 17:39									#65
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Ok - there have been very many good observations so far.
(Medicine + Lover Unit = Contraception Wonder is great!)
This is my attempt to do this a bit more systematically:

Legend:
(g) ground unit
(s) ship
(c) city
(w) wonder
(f) future/space tech
(o) obsolete
(x) unknown

A. Ancient Times
1. Bronze Working: Bowman, COLOSSUS, _____ (x)
2. Masonry: Barracks, GREAT WALL, PYRAMIDS
3. Alphabet: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
4. Pottery: Granary, HANGING GARDENS, _____ (x)
5. The Wheel: Chariot, _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
6. Warrior Code: Warrior, _____ (x), _____ (x)
7. Ceremonial Burial: Temple, _____ (x), _____ (x)
8. Iron Working: Legion, _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
9. Mathematics: Catapult, _____ (x), _____ (x)
10. Writing: Diplomat, _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
11. Mysticism: ORACLE, _____ (x), _____ (x)
12. Philosophy: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
13. Code of Laws: Courthouse, _____ (x), _____ (x)
14. Literature: Library, GREAT LIBRARY, _____ (x)
15. Map Making: Trireme, Harbour, LIGHTHOUSE
16. Horseback Riding: Cavalry, _____ (x), _____ (x)
17. Polytheism: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
18. Construction: Aquaduct, Colosseum, City Walls, _____ (x)
19. Currency: Marketplace, _____ (x), _____ (x)
20. The Republic: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
21. Monarchy: _____ (w), _____ (x), _____ (x)

B. Middle Ages
1. Monotheism: _____ (c/w), _____ (x), _____ (x)
2. Feudalism: Pikemen, WAR ACADEMY, _____ (x)
3. Engineering: Bridge Building, _____ (x), _____ (x)
4. Theology: SISTINE CHAPEL, Oracle obsolete, _____ (x)
5. Chivalry: Knights
6. Invention: _____ (g), LEONARDO'S WORKSHOP, _____ (x)
7. Printing Press: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
8. Music Theory: J.S.BACH'S CATHEDRAL
9. Education: University
10. Gunpowder: Musketeers, Barracks obsolete, _____ (x)
11. Democracy: STATUE OF LIBERTY
12. Banking: Bank
13. Astronomy: Frigate, COPERNICUS' OBSERVATORY, _____ (x)
14. Chemistry: _____ (x)
15. Free Artistry: _____ (w)
16. Economics: TRADING COMPANY
17. Navigation: _____ (g), Caravel, MAGELLAN'S EXPEDITION
18. Physics: _____ (x)
19. Metallurgy: Cannon, _____ (c/w), _____ (o)
20. Theory of Gravity: NEWTON'S COLLEGE
21. Magnetism: Frigate, Galeon, _____ (s), Lighthouse obsolete
22. Military Tradition: _____ (g), _____ (x), _____ (x)

Industrial Ages
1. Nationalism: Nationalist, _____ (x), _____ (x)
2. Steam Power: Ironclad, _____ (x), Monarchy Wonder obsolete
3. Medicine: SHAKESPEARE'S THEATRE
4. Industrialization: Factory, Power Plant, _____ (c/w)
5. Electricity: Great Library obsolete
6. Sanitation: Sewer System
7. Communism: Police Station, UNITED NATIONS, _____ (x)
8. Espionage: _____ (c/w)
9. The Corporation: _____ (x)
10. Scientific Method: DARWIN'S VOYAGE
11. Refining: _____ (x)
12. Steel: _____ (x)
13. Atomic Theory: _____ (x)
14. Combustion: _____ (s), Cruiser, _____ (x)
15. Replaceable Parts: Riflemen, Artillery, _____ (x)
16. Flight: Fighter, Bomber, Airport, Colossus obsolete
17. Amphibious Warfare: Marine
18. Mass Production: _____ (s), Submarine, _____ (s)
19. Electronics: Hydro Plant, _____ (c/w), _____ (x)
20. Advanced Flight: Paratroopers, Helicopter, _____ (x)
21. Motorized Transportation: Armor, _____ (x), _____ (x)
22. Radio: _____ (c/w)

D. Modern Times
1. Recycling: Recycling Center
2. Rocketry: Nuclear Rocket, Fighter Jet, _____ (c/w)
3. Fission: Nuclear Submarine, _____ (c/w), MANHATTAN PROJECT
4. Computers: Mech Inf, _____ (c/w), INTERNET
5. Ecology: _____ (x), _____ (x), _____ (x)
6. Space Flight: SS Structral, SS Component, APOLLO PROGRAM,
_____ (x), _____ (f), _____ (f), _____ (f)
7. Nuclear Power: Nuclear Power Plant
8. Miniaturization: Offshore Platform
9. Synthetic Fibers: Tank, _____ (f), _____ (f), _____ (f)
10. Superconductor: _____ (f), _____ (f), _____ (x)
11. Satellites: Satellite
12. The Laser: _____ (f)
13. Genetics: HUMAN GENOME PROJECT, _____ (c/w), _____ (x)
14. Stealth: Stealth Fighter, Stealth Bomber, _____ (x)
15. Smart Weapons: _____ (x)
16. Robotics: Robotic Tank, Robotic Ship, Robotic Plant
17. Integrated Defense: SDI DEFENSE, _____ (x), _____ (x)

Some are guesses and some stuff that is in is missing.
So please go ahead and make corrections and additions!

	14-08-2001 17:50									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Not all plastics are fibres, and not all (synthetic) fibres are plastics. Plastics as a prerequisite for this new tech would make more sense IMHO. - Very true, good point. I don't imagine Bakelite would make a very convincing fibre The Plough stands for the later version (based on Iron Working and The Wheel) which greatly increased food production (partly via the Three Field System). As an incentive (and incorporating necessary knowledge) it leads to The Mill (with Construction). Logistics (from Industrialization and Explosives) is what makes things be in the right place at the right time, and has little to do with Nationalism IMHO. I would have it allow two units: Sappers and Transport, and have it lead to Radio (as an incentive instead of Flight, with Electricity) and Algorithms. Tourism (from Advanced Flight, and Labor Union to negotiate the necessary holidays) should indeed fit in Civ3's cultural package. Of course it also allows the wonder Disney World to be built Hydraulics (from Refining and Steel) would essentially take the place of Combustion, IMHO it is more to the point and far more encompassing. Apart from Automobile and Flight it also leads to Refrigeration (and, in the nearby future, the Cargo Pipeline). Both Artillery and Submarine arrive with Hydraulics, as does the Offshore Platform. Psychology does not stand alone, so it may be too much too ask for. I would have it link Biology and Human Rights to Cybernetics (with Robotics, allows SS Modules), Pharmacology (with The Corporation, wonder: Contraception) and Social Security (with Labor Union, allows cultural options). Hope this explains my wish-list

It certainly does - I would definitely like to see your complete tech tree, it sounds very well thought out!

Rich.

	14-08-2001 18:17									#67
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quote: Originally posted by BigRich It certainly does - I would definitely like to see your complete tech tree, it sounds very well thought out! Rich.

Tanks Rich
You can find my complete tech tree here:
Tree 69

At the moment it has too many wonders , and might need some thinning anyhow if it was to be used for the real game. But it shows my ideas.

	14-08-2001 18:19									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Al'Kimiya Civ3 is not a sequel to Call to Power, off course you knew that?

Off course, but my point was that I was disappointed that Civ3 might not have included one of the best thing from CTP.

	14-08-2001 19:48									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Tanks Rich You can find my complete tech tree here: Tree 69 At the moment it has too many wonders , and might need some thinning anyhow if it was to be used for the real game. But it shows my ideas.

Wow! - only had a quick glimpse - I'm supposed to be working

Yes - it would probably need a little focussing to fit into a game - and the purists may view the end of it as a little futuristic but who cares . Some neat ideas though - I *love* the Turing Machine and Biosphere 2 wonders. I would make Biosphere 2 a mini wonder that you require to build SS Modules - a sort of long term life support system testbed if you like.

Rich.

	14-08-2001 20:22									#70
	Inflate your Upload Space

I find the removal of the old technologies, without the addition of enough new ones to make up for the old ones and then some disconcerting. Civ2 had a mesh of Civ1 and new techs. Civ3 will ahve a small number of Civ2 techs with a few new, almost purely cultural techs. Let me reemphize this. We have a shortage of new techs! I guess that I'll be tweaing rules.txt or its descendant a lot.

	14-08-2001 20:39									#71
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I have no complaints.

	14-08-2001 20:40									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold If the choice had to be between accuracy and playability, I will happily go with playability.

Perfectly said.

I certainly think that this tree, if it stands, is more than adequate. With the higher cost or at least the premium placed on technological advances, you wouldn't be blowing through a tree every 2-3 turns as you would in Civ2. If that was the case, then you would have to fill the tree with alot of needless techs. For example, I would love to have to agonize over what my next tech would be due to its cost instead of just choosing one because I'll know that within 8 turns, I'll have 3 more discovered to make the choice irrelevant.

But the main thing I would like to find out when I get the game is how robust they made the file so one can easily and fully customize the tech tree to fit any custom scenario. For example, will Kull be able to take this a create a full 82 techs tree solely based on the ancient age?

	14-08-2001 20:41									#73
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I have no complaints.

	14-08-2001 20:48									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Frankly I think that quite a few of the tech paths are bizarre and nonsensical. Many seem to be inaccurate or based exclusively on Western historical development (like needing monotheism to obtain printing). Likewise the tree seems surprisingly short and there is no sign of future tech to keep research valuable when you hit the top of the proper tree. I could nit pick all day but I imagine these choices have been made to supply the players with more than one obvious path. I note that there is only one more tech involved in reaching republic than monarchy, for example, but they are on totally different paths so you have to make choices about what is more important to you. Go straight for republic and you risk being crushed by the culturally deficient but militarily superior despots or monarchs. If the choice had to be between accuracy and playability, I will happily go with playability.

Now *that* would add a level of uniqueness to a Civ. Forget special units or graphical tweaks - different tech trees! Or at least shuffled tech trees to reflect cultural viewpoints and priorities. I imagine it would take a hellacious amount of balancing though.

Rich.

	14-08-2001 20:48									#75
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX i think we're all missing a key factor here... HOW DID SNAPCASE RECIEVE THE PICTURES? the answer? oh ho ho. HE HAS A BETA.

I think this is a complete non-beta tree.

	14-08-2001 21:28									#76
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civ3 - nationalism leads to communism

in civ2 industrialism plus philosophy led to communism

industrialization plus nationalism equals espionage

in civ2 democracy plus communism (IE cold war) equals espionage



Im sorry to be pessimistic again, but this is an inferior tech tree. Civ2 was clever, historical and deep. This is dull, without any particular redeemining features i can see after quick perusal.

Yes, Brian Reynolds is sorely missed.

LOTM

	14-08-2001 21:53									#77
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Going back to 'Lover' tech - someone suggested about having a Contraceptive Wonder which, joking aside actually makes sense. I can't see the Women's Suffrage Wonder and I guess the Contraceptive Wonder could be used instead. When the Wonder is built all Civilizations growth rate goes down (or those in the Industry and Modern Eras - if the Tech is discovered in the Industrial age) but their productivity doubles. The Civ building it might get one or two free tech's as compensation for building it or even have another Golden Age maybe like the '60s.

Contraception has had a major impact on society and this should be reflected in the game.

	14-08-2001 21:54									#78
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quote: Originally posted by genghisvick I think this is a complete non-beta tree.

These screens are from Gamespot, not his personal collection

	14-08-2001 22:16									#79
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I didn't mean to suggest I was advocating different tech trees for different civilisations. I am rabidly pro-choice and anti fixed settings for particular civs. What I meant to imply was that in an ideal world the tech tree would be superbly playable while allowing scientific techs like printing be discoverable even if the civ still believed in the 1,002 gods of Thunder, Fire, Darkness, War and Finger Painting.

	14-08-2001 22:43									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Tanks Rich You can find my complete tech tree here: Tree 69 At the moment it has too many wonders , and might need some thinning anyhow if it was to be used for the real game. But it shows my ideas.

WOW

I like your tech tree!

you really did a good job!!!

	14-08-2001 23:04									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Gone (17) New (11)

17-11 = 6 fewer techs in the tech tree. Throw in the fact that you can skip techs, jeez, what the heck is going on? This is a sequel with advances over the old games, so why is the tech tree getting cut? Why isn't it being expanded?

	14-08-2001 23:09									#82
	Inflate your Upload Space

Although I always prioritize improved AI + gameplay & game-balance issues, I STILL look forward to an Civ-3 main-game expansion-update that can squeeze in a couple of extra techs in the tech-tree. Maybe I am conservative here, but I feel that this new tree looks a a little too skinny for its own good, compared to the Civ-2 one.

Other then that I like it. A tiny cosmetic detail though:
No "amphibious warfare" text-overflows in the final version, please. It looks tacky.

Last edited by Ralf on 14-08-2001 at 23:21

	14-08-2001 23:10									#83
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Arrghh! How the hell did that happened? Triple-post.

	14-08-2001 23:10									#84
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Again.

	15-08-2001 01:23									#85
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When we went from Civ to CivII I thought the techtree became too large. Now Firaxis chooses for less steps, so more important decisions for the player. Less units is not bad, now also in the modern times you have some time to use a unit before it becomes obsolete.

So I am well pleased.

	15-08-2001 04:19									#86
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quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV 17-11 = 6 fewer techs in the tech tree. Throw in the fact that you can skip techs, jeez, what the heck is going on? This is a sequel with advances over the old games, so why is the tech tree getting cut? Why isn't it being expanded?

I second this; Iwould prefer more turns to a smaller tech tree.

Moreover: The tech tree looks like it has been done in one night. Proof: They didnīt even notice there is a redundancy in the Modern Age! If You need Satellites for Smart Weapons and Smart Weapons for ID, then it is obviously useless to also have Satellites as a prerequsite for ID. It took me a full 30 seconds to find this one.

	15-08-2001 04:28									#87
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Double post.

	15-08-2001 04:28									#88
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I think most of what we see now are prototypes.

	15-08-2001 08:29									#89
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The images Snappy included are too dang small to read.

I can make out that these are not the final tech trees because of the red X's in some places. I can also tell that squares with white backgrounds are units, squares with green backgrounds are city improvements, and the circles are wonders.

Can't tell dang otherwise.

	15-08-2001 08:35									#90
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DP