08-10-2001 01:15									#421
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

ok, i'm afraid i'll have to ask from Locutus to add three rules from now on:

in order for your vote to be valid
1) you must give all your points
2) you must vote at least 8 civs
3) at least 4 of your votes must be a 20


it's a shame that some didnt understand the idea of this vote...

	08-10-2001 01:20									#422
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Subject Closed

Sidenote1: You learn quickly
Sidenote2: See, they are friends (Note this is no offence and/or reason to keep the subject open)

Edit: Mark posted while I was writing

quote: Originally posted by MarkG ok, i'm afraid i'll have to ask from Locutus to add three rules from now on: in order for your vote to be valid 1) you must give all your points 2) you must vote at least 8 civs 3) at least 4 of your votes must be a 20 it's a shame that some didnt understand the idea of this vote...

Good, but how about all that already have voted 10 points for 16 different civs?

	08-10-2001 01:41									#423
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Gramphos Good, but how about all that already have voted 10 points for 16 different civs?

ok, how about this

3) at least 4 of your votes must be a 20 or 8 of your votes must be over 10

	08-10-2001 01:46									#424
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

No, I just realized that my votes don't follow the rules. My rule-suggestion was better. Do I have to change my votes again? (having 20, 20, 19, 18, 15, 13, 13, 12, 11, 10 and 9 points assigned.)

Edit rules changed again.

quote: Originally posted by MarkG ok, how about this 3) at least 4 of your votes must be a 20 or 8 of your votes must be over 10

Now I follow them, but shouldn't it be or 8 of your votes must be at least 10?

	08-10-2001 01:48									#425
	Inflate your Upload Space

MarkG: With all due respect, but I think Locutus' should have the exclusive right to set the rules in his poll, if it doesn't break the rules of the board (OTOH as the admin you're entitled to have a different opinion). Also, I think the rules you propose do not resolve the matter - they further unnecesaribly (sp.?) complicate the system, and they can be easily tampered with. An example:

Civ X 20
Blublas 20
Bleblus 20
Bliblas 20
Blablus 20
Blinbas 20
Blanblis 20

I think you get the picture .

quote: Sidenote1: You learn quickly

I knew you'd say that .

	08-10-2001 01:56									#426
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Why do I think that the significance of this poll is dwindling rapidly?

When Locutus started the poll in August, he formulated some rules to make it more reliable than all the threads about 'missing civs' that had dominated this forum for a week or so. Locutus stated that you could vote for up to 16 civs, assign up to 160 points, and that the maximum number of points for a single civ would be 20.

Although Locutus did not say that each vote should include at least 8 civs (160/20, and the likely lower limit of civs in an expansion pack), most of the voters in the first weeks seemed to understand it that way. After 51 votes, the average number of points per vote was 152 (7.734 points total), or 95% of the possible number of points. The polish civ was number 24 at the time.

At the moment, 171 votes have been counted by Locutus, this includes the beginning of the Polish 'rise'. Average number of points has dropped to 139 (23.789 points total) or 87% of the possible number, this is largely due to posts a la 'Poland 20' and the like. The polish civ is number 12 now, while the rest of the ranking remained fairly stable.

There are about 40 votes not yet counted by Locutus, and about 15 of these are just 'Poland 20' or give some additional points to Civs that aren´t even in the top 32. Average number of points is about to drop to 133 or 83% of the possible number, and the polish civ is about to reach the top 8.

And this could go on. 40 more 'Poland 20' posts and the polish civ is number one. And would this ranking be significant? Not for me.

LoD, Staszek and Mankind: I respect your patriotism, and the votes you made are valid not only according to the rules stated by Locutus, but also according to the idea of this poll. All the posters who voted for Poland and nothing else: You violated the idea of this poll, but probably unwittingly. Ctty: I think you did it on purpose.

	08-10-2001 02:11									#427
	Remove this text

there are my last 30 votes:

eskimos +5
byzantines +5
polynesians +10
magyar +5
aborigens +5

	08-10-2001 02:12									#428
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

lockstep: I thought the idea of this poll was to show what the civing community thinks the expansion pack civs should, and not finish with good "points spend per poster" stats - although I do get your point, I don't agree with it. You and Mark mention the "idea" of this poll, but none of you succed in explaining what is, in your opinion.

I think you are overacting. It's only one civ that is affected, so if you have something against that civ's nomination (I'm slowly arriving to that conclusion), voice your opinion, but don't dress it up in a cloak of "forum righteousness".

Finally, I don't think the reason for "Polish invasion", "Polish rise", or whatever you call it, is simply patriotism. It's simply the Polish (and not only Polish) civing community being pissed off by the fact that they never to had the chance to play the civ that they identify the most with. This especiall applies to Civ3, since it "personalizes" civs to a very high level.

LoD

Last edited by LoD on 08-10-2001 at 20:34

	08-10-2001 02:37									#429
	It'S time for Poland at least!!! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Poles 20
Russian 10

	08-10-2001 02:49									#430
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

LoD: IMO, the idea of this poll was to name at least 8 civs that one would like to see in an expansion pack. The stats I provided seem to indicate that the non-Polish voters understood it that way.

About the 'warranty' of the Polish civ to be in an expansion pack: I think Europe is over-represented at the moment. If the expansion pack includes 16 additional civs, Poland should be in nevertheless; if only 8 civs are included, Firaxis should concentrate on South America, Africa and South-East Asia.

And speaking about "forum righteousness": How would you interpret Ctty´s post (especially the 'stick-out-tongue'-part)?

	08-10-2001 02:52									#431
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: ok, i'm afraid i'll have to ask from Locutus to add three rules from now on: in order for your vote to be valid 1) you must give all your points 2) you must vote at least 8 civs 3) at least 4 of your votes must be a 20 it's a shame that some didnt understand the idea of this vote...

first of all, im glad mark g noticed my post, (which will need some editing because of valdi77, Ctty and vonholl)
secondly, i agree that we need some kind of system to control these one-time-posters, but the one u suggested doesnt sound right. it would require MASSIVE restructuring, and would move civs all over the place. it would take a lot of Locutus' time...
i suggest-

1-u must vote for at least FIVE civs
2-u must use all ur votes
3-it can be ur 1st post, but uhave a week to get nine more, or your vote is discounted. this would at least make them work a little.

	08-10-2001 02:57									#432
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, I'd hate to sound like some black sheep or something, but even despite being a Pole myself and having voted, among others, for Poland way way back (I believe it was some other thread), I think the recent Polish votes flood is something that I find of a somewhat questionable integrity and validity.

There I said it (I hope someone understood me )

	08-10-2001 03:03									#433
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by jdd2007 .... 3-it can be ur 1st post, but uhave a week to get nine more, or your vote is discounted. this would at least make them work a little.

i think there is another problem
many of my polish friends, who has voted on poles, can't speak english
so that is main reason they were here only for one post

	08-10-2001 03:09									#434
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

btw, could u make this a news item?

Breaking News!!!- Thanks to FANTASTIC detective work by a little known Warlord JDD2007, a long list of Polish settlers who voted for Poland in -Expansion Pack Civs (Part 3): Just one more...- has been compiled. JDDs sidekick, LoD, discovered that these ARE legal votes, but that many are One-Time-Posters...Meanwhile, Locutus is gone...In honor of the Occasion, Mark has promoted JDD2007 from warlord to DETECTIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!

	08-10-2001 03:11									#435
	Tired of ads?

Gramphos,

yes, "at least" sounds more reasonable


LoD,

a) i used the word "ask"
b) i dont think you consider locutus stupid enough to count a vote for "Blinbas" and "Blablus"
c) the idea of this vote is for each voter to suggest the civilizations that should be in a expasion pack. notice that i use the word "civilizations" and not "civilization"

jdd2007,

i agree that the changes hould affect only people who voted around a week ago(and certainly people who have used only up to 50 of their points)

Martinus,

i'm glad to see you saying that.

	08-10-2001 03:11									#436
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: think there is another problem many of my polish friends, who has voted on poles, can't speak english so that is main reason they were here only for one post

ill have some higher beings work on this...MARK!!! LOCUTUS!!!

	08-10-2001 03:20									#437
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by kakaj_azor i think there is another problem many of my polish friends, who has voted on poles, can't speak english so that is main reason they were here only for one post

good god....

perhaps lod can translate....

	08-10-2001 04:13									#438
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by kakaj_azor i think there is another problem many of my polish friends, who has voted on poles, can't speak english so that is main reason they were here only for one post

1) So these voters accidently found this english-speaking forum, 2) entered the this thread, though they didn't knew what it meant and
3) started to read through all of the incomprehensible english posts (and this is 10 or 11 pages) until they finally saw the posts written in polish...


Yeah right!

	08-10-2001 04:37									#439
	Re: It'S time for Poland at least!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by valdi77 Poles 20 Russian 10

Obviously whoever's cheating a) doesn't understand the new rules and b) doesn't care enough about the game to know the Russians have always been in and will be in Civ III

Seriously, what's the point of suggesting what civs should be in if you don't already know which civs are in? You'd think somebody who cares enough about what civs are in to vote on this thread would know who's in and why would you vote 10 anyway if you have 140 points left?! This gets more and more suspicious with each passing day...

EDIT:

quote: 1) you must give all your points 2) you must vote at least 8 civs 3) at least 4 of your votes must be a 20

Rule #2 is redundant! If you have to give all your points and there's a 20-point maximum, you HAVE to vote for at least 8 civs...

	08-10-2001 05:23									#440
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

martinus, can you please translate this
http://civ3.ask-klan.net.pl/pl/apel.html

	08-10-2001 05:56									#441
	OMG Support Apolyton

Holy Shirt! Here's the explanation. Looking at the bottom of the site Markos pointed out, I think I can pick out bits & pieces. It's an elaborate scheme to get people to quickly register, vote, and leave:

quote: Dodatek do Apelu - instrukcja krok po kroku co nale´´y zrobiç: 1. Wchodzisz na http://apolyton.net/forums/register...=&action=signup . 2. Wype?niasz formularz rejestracyjny (nie martw si´, nie spamujà). 2a. Czekasz na aktywacje swojego konta. Czasami mo´´e to troch´ potrwaç. 3. Wchodzisz na http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=24568 4. Klikasz na guzik post reply (taki fioletowawy po prawej). 5. Wpisujesz login, has?o(jeÊli nie zosta?y automatycznie wpisane. 6. W pole Your Reply wpisujesz "Poles 20" i ewentualnie inne cywilizacje (zgodnie z zasadami które opisa?em w poprzedniej wiadomoÊci - patrz wy´´ej). 7. Klikasz "Submit Reply". 8. Czujesz dum´ z dobrze wykonanego obowiàzku wobec Ojczyzny .

1 mentions the sign-up page
2 I think the word "spamujà" might mean "spam"
3 mentions this thread
4 I don't know
5 I don't know
6 Tells you to write "Poles 20"
7 says "Click 'Submit Reply'"
8 I also don't know but that winky face looks suspicious

I still say it's not fair.

EDIT: I think the title "APEL PATRIOTYCZNY" means "SHOW YOUR PATRIOTISM" or something like that. Underneath it says "(do polskich strategów komputerowych)" which might mean "The Polish computer strategy" (???).

Aha! From my Polish dictionary, "Apel" means appeal, roll-call, call-over and "patriotyczny" means patriotic. So patriotic appeal

EDIT #2:
To see a translated version of that page, go to http://www.tranexp.com:2000/InterTran? and type http://civ3.ask-klan.net.pl/pl/apel.html , scroll to Polish in the first menu and whatever language you're most comfortable with in the second.

	08-10-2001 10:07									#442
	Got spare money?

How about this:

You must use at least 100 points.

There, that solves it immediately.

Locutus can simply start a brand new thread, stating clearly that whoever hasn't yet used 100 points will not have his/her votes counted. Those who're really voting seriously will try to fill up the 100 points. Those who're just nudging their favorite civ up a bit won't get their votes counted.

Did I miss anything?

	08-10-2001 10:31									#443
	Support Apolyton

What about a new thread with NO posting about anything except your picks. And you can't change them, it's a once and done thing.

	08-10-2001 10:33									#444
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Poles 20

	08-10-2001 10:38									#445
	damnit Suffering from ads?

That's it. Lets have a new thread, top it, only Chiefs can vote, and they can vote anyway they want to, if they want 20 for poles and nothing else, fine. But not all these settlers, something isn't right, someone's being a DL ******* and I hope when they get caught, they get 100% pcr and 4 weeks.

	08-10-2001 10:40									#446
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Profile For Gimitar Search for all posts by this user. Date Registered: 28-09-2001 Status: Settler Total Posts: 1 (0.11 posts per day) Last Post: 08-10-2001 01:33 Expansion Pack Civs (Part 3): Just one more... Contact Gimitar: Click here to email Gimitar Send Gimitar a Private Message! Homepage: ICQ Number: AOL Instant Messenger Handle: Yahoo Instant Messenger Handle: Birthday July 25, 1983 Gender Biography I like Civ Location Poland Interests computer Occupation

Bull ****ing ****

	08-10-2001 12:05									#447
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: someone's being a DL *******

now this isn't truth

as you said previously...

bull $h!T

	08-10-2001 15:30									#448
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

LoD: The idea is to see what the Civ community thinks, but Poles don't constitute 50% of the Civ community. I mean, if I got 500 Greeks to come here and post "Byzantines 20", would you be very happy?

IMO Mark's rules are a good start, I would add a couple more:

* You can only vote for historical civs (this would eliminate idiotic choices like "Blablas").
* You must speak English to vote, since this is an English-speaking forum.

	08-10-2001 15:44									#449
	Suffering from ads?

sounds good to me...except the historical civs part
note-must update my list again-Gimitar

quote: Date Registered: 28-09-2001 Status: Settler Total Posts: 1 (0.11 posts per day) Last Post: 08-10-2001 01:33 Expansion Pack Civs (Part 3): Just one more... Contact Gimitar: Click here to email Gimitar Send Gimitar a Private Message! Homepage: ICQ Number: AOL Instant Messenger Handle: Yahoo Instant Messenger Handle: Birthday July 25, 1983 Gender Biography I like Civ Location Poland Interests computer Occupation

you wouldnt believe how many settlers in my list have profiles virtually identical to this...

	08-10-2001 16:28									#450
	Suffering from ads?

I'm a bit shocked why people are so suspicious. LoD gave explaination. Calm down, its only a poll. And you are not cheated.

Current situation shows only that Polish civ fans desperately want their civilization in expansion pack and they are well organized!

I'd like to point out several facts:
1. Population of Poland: 40 milions
2. Poland is 6-th or 7-th PC market in Europe with over 800.000 PCs sold each year. Better are England, France, Germany, Russia and Italy (possibly Spain).
3. Many people in my country play strategic games (civ especially). I play civ games, my nephew does, my acquaintances ... my wife don't We have several Games Magazines (I think 4-5) each of them selling in at least 50.000 copies.

1 & 2 & 3 -> we can expect more posts with "Poles 20" string.

But have in mind that noone is forced to vote. They want to vote.

Change of voting system won't do any good.
1. Ok, vote for at least 8 civs, but keep in mind that other civs can be of no improtance for voter and will be dead votes.
2. How do you check that one can communicate in English?
3. That's not the way. Why one voters are superior? And their votes are more correct? Because they have >25 posts in the Forum.
Moreover, how many of Apolytoners have 0 or 1 posts sent? Check yourself and you'll be surprised.