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Adm.Naismith
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Milano - Italy
Oct 1999
time: 06:15
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As Korn469 mentioned AFAIK the short list is in fact the Essential Civ3 List of Fixes and New Ideas, in short EC3.
You can't find it in download area, but any search into the Forum Area "Civ3 - The list of ideas for Firaxis" will let you find the whole history about it.
My best help for a shortcut is to read this Final Voting Result thread, browse it until you find all the link to the proposed enhancement.
BTW, so far I don't have the feeling Firaxis really used it  (of course we should wait until the release of the game will turn every card Firaxis has still covered...).
Let's try a first overview.
List of FIXES (more related to a "conservative sequel") sorted in order of votes received:
1. Trade - 105 MOSTLY ACCEPTED
2. Diplomacy - 86 ACCEPTED
3. Make It Harder For Civs To Last - 73 NOT CONFIRMED
4. Comprehensive Scenario Editor - 72 MOSTLY ACCEPTED
5. Improved Road & Rail Rules - 72 UNKNOW
Others Receiving Votes:
6. Bring Back News Reports - 52 UNKNOW
7. No more Instant City Conversions - 52 ACCEPTED
8. Amazing City Veiw - 42 MOSTLY ACCEPTED
9. Faster Smoother Graphics/Interface - 35 TO BE CHECKED
10. Multiplayer Startup Option - 26 UNKNOW
List of NEW IDEAS (more related to a "radical change") sorted in order of votes received:
1. Rise and fall of Empires - 75 REJECTED
2. Domestic Politics - 63 REJECTED
3. New Modes of Victory - 52 NOT NEAR AS PROPOSED
4. Energy - 48 REJECTED
5. Stacking - 46 NOT AS PROPOSED
5. Religion - 46 REJECTED
Others Receiving Votes:
7. Open Source AI - 44 UNKNOW
8. Expanding City Radius - 43 REJECTED (only borders change)
9. Detailed Replay - 41 UNKNOW
10. Hex Based Map - 40 REJECTED
11. Simultaneous Turns of Play - 36 REJECTED
11. Different Levels of Cities - 36 REJECTED
13. Recruitment System - 29 REJECTED
14. Automatic Patrolling - 23 UNKNOW
15. Tourism - 20 UNKNOW
So far, and considering that I tried to count as ACCEPTED also proposed features that seems a bit different from the Civ3 announced, I only note a success of proposed "Fix", while nothing seems to have been really accepted from the "New idea" bunch.
Once again, I'll wait the korn469 EC3 retrospective before to write a final comment on this argument. 
Disclaimer: please double check by your own, because I quickly browse the EC3 proposal, while sometimes I only used my old memories. 
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tniem
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Hope College
Apr 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
6. Bring Back News Reports - 52 UNKNOW |
Known. I remember Dan saying in this form that the newspaper would be coming back.
quote:
List of NEW IDEAS (more related to a "radical change") sorted in order of votes received:
1. Rise and fall of Empires - 75 REJECTED |
Of course one could argue that Golden Ages are in a way the way Firaxis has made Rise and Fall of empires work. And in my opinion I think it is a very good way.
quote:
4. Energy - 48 REJECTED |
Don't remember this one.
quote:
5. Stacking - 46 NOT AS PROPOSED |
But accepted partially.
quote:
Others Receiving Votes:
7. Open Source AI - 44 UNKNOW |
Never really expected.
quote:
9. Detailed Replay - 41 UNKNOW |
Replay is in. I guess it is unknown just how detailed it is.
quote:
11. Simultaneous Turns of Play - 36 REJECTED |
Jeff said that it is in, in this thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...ultaneous+Turns
So it appears that Firaxis has at least incorporated some of the ideas that they thought would make the game more fun. And overall, it appears that they did at least read the list.
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tniem
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Hope College
Apr 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by ancient
sorry..... damn now im confused |
It is very simple. The Horsie that Colon was refering to was 'the' Horsie, Mr. Alexander's Horse. The man responsible for not having mountain cities. The man responsible for multiple spam threads. The man responsible for a new child coming into this world. The man that turned ACS Community into a flame thread over not having him in FoA. And that is only in the last couple of weeks.
Meanwhile you said KrazyHorse. Another posteer. Albeit a newer and less famous one that incoporates the Horse name into his handle.
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Jon Miller
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IIRC expanding city radius is in
Jon Miller
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Adm.Naismith
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Milano - Italy
Oct 1999
time: 06:15
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tniem, thanks for your help remembering me some info, but I'm afraid some of your point are still to be proved right
quote:
Originally posted by tniem
quote:
Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
6. Bring Back News Reports - 52 UNKNOW
Known. I remember Dan saying in this form that the newspaper would be coming back.
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Correct. But until finally confirmed I take every early info with a bit of salt. If in doubt, ask yourself ten times: "where are minor civ and economic victory announced early?" 
quote:
quote:
List of NEW IDEAS (more related to a "radical change") sorted in order of votes received:
1. Rise and fall of Empires - 75 REJECTED
Of course one could argue that Golden Ages are in a way the way Firaxis has made Rise and Fall of empires work. And in my opinion I think it is a very good way.
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Golden age is an interesting concept added, and I'm waiting to see it at work. Still is completely different from the description of "Rise and Fall point", IMHO. Please check by yourself.
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quote:
5. Stacking - 46 NOT AS PROPOSED
But accepted partially.
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IMHO no, because they simply adopt the same "half baked" stack methode they already used in SMAC. Players asked for a better system.
quote:
quote:
Others Receiving Votes:
7. Open Source AI - 44 UNKNOW
Never really expected.
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I agree on a personal opinion, still we are speaking about the Firaxis acceptance of EC3 list: I'm not considering only the proposals I liked
quote:
quote:
9. Detailed Replay - 41 UNKNOW
Replay is in. I guess it is unknown just how detailed it is.
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Same of my reply at point 6: true, but still to be seen on final announce.
Sorry, no. As far as I understand Jeff mentioned a simultaneous turn movement (kind of RTS, stepped by turns when you end your units movement points). I guess that because of others posts mentioning they hidden this system in Civ II multiplayer, too.
I (it was indeed a mine proposal, shared with ChrisShaffer) proposed a Simultaneous Turn Execution of prefetched orders.
Please read the final explanation of concept ChrisShaffer and me did for the EC3.
quote:
So it appears that Firaxis has at least incorporated some of the ideas that they thought would make the game more fun. And overall, it appears that they did at least read the list.
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Most probably they read it, but they don't seem to have used it a lot... Don't take it as a rant against Firaxis (none intended the EC3 list as an order to them ), but so far I'm not really conviced our efforts really made any relevant difference on Firaxis plan and game design.
Let me put this in plain words: many of us hoped a bit more from the wish List (long and short edition) that the humble "if only two ideas..." introduce it
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tniem
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Hope College
Apr 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Adm.Naismith
Golden age is an interesting concept added, and I'm waiting to see it at work. Still is completely different from the description of "Rise and Fall point", IMHO. Please check by yourself. |
I agree, totally different from what was proposed. But it is obvious that they were going for a conservative sequel and that to get rise and fall in without changing the whole game would require something new. Depending on how Golden Ages work it could at least add the Rise part. And then the fall just happens naturally as other nations rise above you.
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IMHO no, because they simply adopt the same "half baked" stack methode they already used in SMAC. Players asked for a better system. |
Fair enough.
quote:
I agree on a personal opinion, still we are speaking about the Firaxis acceptance of EC3 list: I'm not considering only the proposals I liked |
Oh I would loved to see open source AI, I just didn't think it was too practical. Basically giving any other company that wants to make a turn based game access to what Firaxis did. I just didn't think that it was likely.
quote:
Sorry, no. As far as I understand Jeff mentioned a simultaneous turn movement (kind of RTS, stepped by turns when you end your units movement points). I guess that because of others posts mentioning they hidden this system in Civ II multiplayer, too. |
The way I thought he was discussing it was the SMAC way. Where both players in MP move at the same time. I see the way your talking about is how Stars used to do it and apparently the way MOO3 is going to do it. Interesting concept, but I still believe that they have incorporated a way of Simultaneous turns, just not the one you summarized.
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Most probably they read it, but they don't seem to have used it a lot... Don't take it as a rant against Firaxis (none intended the EC3 list as an order to them ), but so far I'm not really conviced our efforts really made any relevant difference on Firaxis plan and game design. |
It appears to me that they did look at what you, Korn, and other proposed. What they decided though was that they were going to make a conservative game. And then they tried to implement these proposals in a way that would fit with the game they were making.
quote:
Let me put this in plain words: many of us hoped a bit more from the wish List (long and short edition) that the humble "if only two ideas..." introduce it |
I understand and I would like to say that I as well wished more proposals were accepted. I have said many times before that I am worried that I will tire of Civ III very fast. So I wish more radical changes were taken. But since the title was "If only two ideas...", I think Firaxis probably did fufil our wish/demand.
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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:15
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Just some background for you:
Version 2 of The List (a 500 page, structured document that incorporated feedback from the then 'official' Firaxis forums) was sent to Firaxis. Chris Pine (their AI programmer and major leader of the Civ3 project) printed, bound and tabbed that document. It was titled "The Big Book of Yin and Co."
In an email to me, Chris noted that the 'book' had been passed around and around and around the office with great interest. He made special note that the "Cheats" section led by Ming provided them a lot of surprises...stuff they never even knew could be done in the game. He also noted that all sections were read and discussed carefully.
This was LONG before the essential list and, indeed, formed the core of any essential list discussion that would follow many many weeks later. Thus, The List was sent early enough in the design phase of Civ3 while anything was still possible. The essential list was more or less a recap of what had already been submitted. While I'm in no way taking sole credit for this effort since numerous people led and hundreds contributed, your "special mention" is rather pathetic. Nor, however, am I taking anything away from the essential list, which no doubt helped reaffirm several things to Firaxis.
Perhaps you just didn't know the background. Now you do. When the time comes, I'm sure somebody will comb through The List and show you just what a profound effect it had on Civ3. In fact, that might be a good project for YOU to do...
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:15
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quote:
posted by Yin
While I'm in no way taking sole credit for this effort since numerous people led and hundreds contributed, your "special mention" is rather pathetic. |
quote:
posted by korn469
yin did assemble the first buglist for SMAC back at the old owo forums and that list led to the first and second revisions of the The List here, but without the community yin wouldn't have had much to send firaxis |
Yin, if this was directed at me i then I applogize because I certainly didn't mean to slight you. I summarized the radical Ideas thread one time, and Raingoon did it next. Just that one little part of The List was certainly time consuming. I know that throughout the entire effort you were there, both setting list policy, and trying your best to keep everything organized and on track. I do not know how many hours you put into both versions of The List but I do know that it was probably more than anyother person involved (easily hundred of hours). This was just you volunteering your time and effort, in the hopes that civ3 would be a little better. Many of the people helping you had things come up, and had to quit; you could have said "screw this! i give up" but you never did, you saw it through from start to finish. I know this, and so do many many others. When I first saw this thread, I thought it was going to be trouble, just because I know that you cannot say anyone person should take all of the credit for the any of the various lists made by the community, first it's untrue, and second it has the potential to make people feel very unappreciated. In my post that is exactly what I was trying to show. If you feel that I insulted you that I am truly sorry Yin. Looking back I could have reworded it so it wouldn't sound like I was completely downplaying your effort, but it was just a quick post, trying to show how things come around. I have always deeply respected all of your efforts to make SMAC and Civ3 the best games possible Yin.
Thinking back, I think that Raingoon and I asked you to organize the EC3 list, but you said you were taking a break from making lists.
As for the success of all the various lists, it all depends on how we measure success...the best way was stated long ago by you Yin
quote:
Along the way, we informally adopted a philosophy about this project. I call it "IF JUST ONE IDEA…": If just one idea from the hundreds contained here makes it into Civilization III, we will know this was all well worth the effort |
by that measurement each one of the various Lists will prove to be successful.
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yin26
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This space reserved for Darkstar.
Apr 1999
time: 14:15
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Korn:
I greatly appreciate your post. Actually, I was in no way offended by your previous statement. The fact is I'm often torn in situations like this...should I step up and talk about MY time spent on the lists? Well, that would seem a bit self-serving. At the same time, it IS important to me that people remember that things don't "just happen," and even if my role was more of a leadership/secretarial one, it was vital. I talk a bit more about this in my upcoming interview, so I'll leave it here for now.
But none of us (I don't think) want any kind of public praise on an individual basis. When all is said and done, APOLYTON did an outstanding and unprecedented thing with our lists. I am 100% convinced that Civ 3 is a much better game than it would have been otherwise thanks to the input from this community. As you noted, therefore, it's a slippery slope to start trying to give credit to any one person or a small group. WE did all that work, and WE should be damn proud!
As for you, Korn, I think your contributions to Civ 3 have been simply outstanding. It made me very happy, for example, when I was able to get you back in here by reviving your excellent ICS thread. I, for one, am not always very good at analyzing the nuts and bolts of things. I'm a great concept guy...but your ability to get under the hood and talk about small details in lucid, through-provoking ways has no doubt greatly affected elements of Civ 3 and our community.
Finally, yes you guys did ask me to lead the essential list effort, but I was truly so damn tired and worn out at that point. The fact that you guys ran with it and saw it to such an excellent conclusion makes it even more clear to me that Apolyton has gone way above and beyond the call of duty to try to help the development of Civ3.
As you rightly noted, there can be NO doubt that at least one idea was taken from these boards and put in the game. Mission Complete.
Wittlich: Be afraid. Be VERY afraid. 
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The Mad Viking
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of the Great White North
Feb 2000
time: 05:15
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Well, Yin, I'm sorry that I offended you. I'm sorry I mentioned Korn, and sorry that I patheticly mentioned you. I'm sorry that I wasn't here for the first list. I'm sorry that I remember Korn's work on the EC3 so vividly, and I'm sorry that it left such an impression on me.
I don't imagine we would ever have had EC3 without the BIG LIST. I happen to believe that EC3 was more effective than the BIG LIST, even though the BIG LIST was, more work, and, well, bigger. It's my personal opinion is that 500 page documents get passed around and eventually filed, and one page summaries get used. I'm sorry if this opinion offends you.
I'm happy that you posted and set the record straight. It was certainly not my intention to slight you, and I can understand how my posting did slight your work. I suppose I shouldn't have mentioned Korn.
I certainly agree with you that this is an significant Apolyton achievement, and my thread was simply my bumbling attempt to point this out.
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18-08-2001 02:28
but it was so interesting!
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