20-08-2000 22:06									#1
	xxxo xxxo xxxo ... Got spare money?

starting with 4000BC this pattern indicates the turns which allow you to choose a new goverment when you´re in anarchy. after a couple of tests with different savegames I found out they´re always the same:

3850
3650
3450
3250
...

edit: the most surprising thing about it, this pattern is really simple. nevertheless it obviously hasn´t been detected before
[This message has been edited by oedo (edited August 20, 2000).]

	20-08-2000 22:33									#2
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Good thinking!I have to test it out myself but you may have eliminated the 3 turn revolution.

	20-08-2000 23:41									#3
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I have been looking through some of the OCC tables and they seem to confirm your results. There are some anomalies, but they can most likely be attributed to typos in the logs or the tables.

	21-08-2000 00:28									#4
	Got spare money?

wow, never thought to look for a pattern before. I'd focused mainly on having my capitol be the city producing the science needed for the govt. tech. It does still pose an interesting question for OCCers. Do you maximize taxes for up to 3 turns before the govt tech if you just missed the last window or do you go ahead and keep researching and then waste an entire round of trade in anarchy?

If you wait to discover the govt tech, you gain potentially significant gold, but lose some science, although no actual trade is lost. If you go ahead and discover the government, you lose 1 full round of trade in anarchy, but do have a little more science, potentially even another tech.

For 3 rounds the choice would seem to keep researching, especially going from Republic to Democracy.

For 1 round the choice would seem obvious to hold off the science, since you would lose 1 round of science anyway, but can gain 1 free round of taxes.

For 2 rounds, the situation may or may not dictate an obvious answer, so is open for debate

------------------
April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*

	21-08-2000 04:43									#5
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Great job, I would have never thought of that. I guess it does make sense, I had wondered previously why sometimes it would take no turns and other times it would seem to take forever. Kinda makes SoL a little less useful (only a little though)

I have so much testing to do and so much time to do it in

------------------
"You spam more about mao's post count than mao spams himself!" - A certain unnamed apolytoner

"And paul, hes a hopeless dork"... thanks a lot speer

"...Crazy paul..." - Pretty much everyone

Warning: this topic may unduly excite any hetrosexual virgin child men who read this

	21-08-2000 04:47									#6
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I think research can stay the same but you may want to wait a turn or 2 for a revolution.

	21-08-2000 04:51									#7
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Time to test. I assume you did. This is a big find. I would have expected it from Xin Yu.
Great Job. I can't believe no one has ever noticed this before. Unbelievably simple.

RAH

	21-08-2000 05:02									#8
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God, it worked. I know I expected it to, but it's still a surprise. Exxxcccceeeelent.
This will play into the stratagy.
It's so simple.

RAH
Great Job Sherlock.

	21-08-2000 05:15									#9
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Xin is only good for complicated stuff like how 20 engineers can change 1 square 3 times a turn

This is so simple its embarrassing I haven't noticed this pattern before.Prelim tests seem to confirm every 4th turn is the one.

Way ta go oedo!

	21-08-2000 05:30									#10
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Simply Amazing... Unbelievable!

Who would have thought... great job oedo.
Key knowledge to have. And who says we have nothing new to find out about civ!

	21-08-2000 05:46									#11
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That is truly remarkable Oedo; it's cool to know that new things are still being found! Kinda makes you want to run around naked, yelling, "Eureka!" ...Or maybe not.

	21-08-2000 09:23									#12
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Way to go Sonder-Oedo!

Sometimes the most elegant explanation is the simplest.

	21-08-2000 15:12									#13
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Absolutely brill - a great catch oedo


------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	21-08-2000 17:24									#15
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Most people are assuming a 3 turn wait. Does the xxx0 sill apply later in the game when turns are at 2 or 1 year intervals? If so, and I would assume that to be true, then you have more time to apply whatever stategies turn out to be appropriate.

But what an incredible find, oedo!!! Kind of like Apartame. BTW, how DO you pronounce your name?

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

	22-08-2000 09:32									#16
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I found no savegames from 1750AD or later, so I couldn´t verify if the pattern still works then. but I´d say with 99% it does.

meanwhile also I tested in chieftain and now I can say xxxo works at any level (and as I suppose at any time)

noe I have a little request: if you read this, please don´t tell anyone at the zone about it

----------
just oedo it

	22-08-2000 09:59									#17
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

SCG-Ok I get it now.Yep.Now we can have instant revolutions at will.

It works in later years also.Have to do a little figuring.I've allready written a list of revolt dates.

oedo-there are many players that would have kept this a secret.There may be some that did know this although I doubt it.

	21-08-2000 22:38									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Smash, I was going to work on a list too. Why don't you save us all a lot of effort and post yours here.
I'm sure it would be much appreciated.

RAH
Odeo, thanks for making the title a little cryptic, I'm betting some people will just ignore this tread. And that was a fun game Saturday. My favorite was "Where the F*CK is Burrows?"
[This message has been edited by rah (edited August 21, 2000).]

	21-08-2000 22:50									#19
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oedo - I second Smash's thanks for sharing this insight. This will certainly help me in my games.

	21-08-2000 23:00									#20
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I already had a list of years with turn numbers for the OCC comparison tables. As I already posted in the OCC #15 thread I just marked the years in which governments will be established with asterisks. http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/turns.htm

	21-08-2000 23:02									#21
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Great findings! We have been misled for so many years! Who's the first who told us that it was random?

	21-08-2000 23:02									#22
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Thanks, Paul, I was about to post a link to that page too.

	21-08-2000 23:04									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

*wonders if Paul is amused yet*

http://members.home.nl/paulvdb/turns.htm


Edit: wow, that was quick
------------------
April Cantor: Sire, in order to expand further we must first gain favor of the King

SCG: darn, I've never really got the hang of that tribute thing, guess it will be a long time until i make prince

*goes off and starts gifting gold and techs*
[This message has been edited by SCG (edited August 21, 2000).]

	21-08-2000 23:18									#24
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I reformated it to one page for convenience. Let's see how it cut's and pastes here.

0 -4000 60 -1000 120 400 180 1550 240 1830 300 1900
1 -3950 61 -975 121 420 181 1560 241 1832 301 1901
2 -3900 62 -950 122 440 182 1570 242 1834 302 1902
3 -3850 * 63 -925 * 123 460 * 183 1580 * 243 1836 * 303 1903 *
4 -3800 64 -900 124 480 184 1590 244 1838 304 1904
5 -3750 65 -875 125 500 185 1600 245 1840 305 1905
6 -3700 66 -850 126 520 186 1610 246 1842 306 1906
7 -3650 * 67 -825 * 127 540 * 187 1620 * 247 1844 * 307 1907 *
8 -3600 68 -800 128 560 188 1630 248 1846 308 1908
9 -3550 69 -775 129 580 189 1640 249 1848 309 1909
10 -3500 70 -750 130 600 190 1650 250 1850 310 1910
11 -3450 * 71 -725 * 131 620 * 191 1660 * 251 1851 * 311 1911 *
12 -3400 72 -700 132 640 192 1670 252 1852 312 1912
13 -3350 73 -675 133 660 193 1680 253 1853 313 1913
14 -3300 74 -650 134 680 194 1690 254 1854 314 1914
15 -3250 * 75 -625 * 135 700 * 195 1700 * 255 1855 * 315 1915 *
16 -3200 76 -600 136 720 196 1710 256 1856 316 1916
17 -3150 77 -575 137 740 197 1720 257 1857 317 1917
18 -3100 78 -550 138 760 198 1730 258 1858 318 1918
19 -3050 * 79 -525 * 139 780 * 199 1740 * 259 1859 * 319 1919 *
20 -3000 80 -500 140 800 200 1750 260 1860 320 1920
21 -2950 81 -475 141 820 201 1752 261 1861 321 1921
22 -2900 82 -450 142 840 202 1754 262 1862 322 1922
23 -2850 * 83 -425 * 143 860 * 203 1756 * 263 1863 * 323 1923 *
24 -2800 84 -400 144 880 204 1758 264 1864 324 1924
25 -2750 85 -375 145 900 205 1760 265 1865 325 1925
26 -2700 86 -350 146 920 206 1762 266 1866 326 1926
27 -2650 * 87 -325 * 147 940 * 207 1764 * 267 1867 * 327 1927 *
28 -2600 88 -300 148 960 208 1766 268 1868 328 1928
29 -2550 89 -275 149 980 209 1768 269 1869 329 1929
30 -2500 90 -250 150 1000 210 1770 270 1870 330 1930
31 -2450 * 91 -225 * 151 1020 *211 1772 * 271 1871 *
32 -2400 92 -200 152 1040 212 1774 272 1872
33 -2350 93 -175 153 1060 213 1776 273 1873
34 -2300 94 -150 154 1080 214 1778 274 1874
35 -2250 * 95 -125 * 155 1100 *215 1780 * 275 1875 *
36 -2200 96 -100 156 1120 216 1782 276 1876
37 -2150 97 -75 157 1140 217 1784 277 1877
38 -2100 98 -50 158 1160 218 1786 278 1878
39 -2050 * 99 -25 * 159 1180 *219 1788 * 279 1879 *
40 -2000 100 0 160 1200 220 1790 280 1880
41 -1950 101 20 161 1220 221 1792 281 1881
42 -1900 102 40 162 1240 222 1794 282 1882
43 -1850 * 103 60 * 163 1260 *223 1796 * 283 1883 *
44 -1800 104 80 164 1280 224 1798 284 1884
45 -1750 105 100 165 1300 225 1800 285 1885
46 -1700 106 120 166 1320 226 1802 286 1886
47 -1650 * 107 140 * 167 1340 *227 1804 * 287 1887 *
48 -1600 108 160 168 1360 228 1806 288 1888
49 -1550 109 180 169 1380 229 1808 289 1889
50 -1500 110 200 170 1400 230 1810 290 1890
51 -1450 * 111 220 * 171 1420 *231 1812 * 291 1891 *
52 -1400 112 240 172 1440 232 1814 292 1892
53 -1350 113 260 173 1460 233 1816 293 1893
54 -1300 114 280 174 1480 234 1818 294 1894
55 -1250 * 115 300 * 175 1500 *235 1820 * 295 1895 *
56 -1200 116 320 176 1510 236 1822 296 1896
57 -1150 117 340 177 1520 237 1824 297 1897
58 -1100 118 360 178 1530 238 1826 298 1898
59 -1050 * 119 380 * 179 1540 *239 1828 * 299 1899 *

	21-08-2000 23:25									#25
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That looked like Crap. Let's try again with just the years that it works......

Deity Years When it works.

-3850 * -925 * 460_ * 1580 * 1836 * 1903 *
-3650 * -825 * 540_ * 1620 * 1844 * 1907 *
-3450 * -725 * 620_ * 1660 * 1851 * 1911 *
-3250 * -625 * 700_ * 1700 * 1855 * 1915 *
-3050 * -525 * 780_ * 1740 * 1859 * 1919 *
-2850 * -425 * 860_ * 1756 * 1863 * 1923 *
-2650 * -325 * 940_ * 1764 * 1867 * 1927 *
-2450 * -225 * 1020 * 1772 * 1871 *
-2250 * -125 * 1100 * 1780 * 1875 *
-2050 * -25_ * 1180 * 1788 * 1879 *
-1850 * 60__ * 1260 * 1796 * 1883 *
-1650 * 140_ * 1340 * 1804 * 1887 *
-1450 * 220_ * 1420 * 1812 * 1891 *
-1250 * 300_ * 1500 * 1820 * 1895 *
-1050 * 380_ * 1540 * 1828 * 1899 *

can be reduced for a pocket reference

RAH
[This message has been edited by rah (edited August 21, 2000).]

	21-08-2000 23:36									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Edit - dupe!

Another quick edit to remove years that don't allow an immediate change...

-3850___-925___460__1580__1836__1903
-3650___-825___540__1620__1844__1907
-3450___-725___620__1660__1851__1911
-3250___-625___700__1700__1855__1915
-3050___-525___780__1740__1859__1919
-2850___-425___860__1756__1863__1923
-2650___-325___940__1764__1867__1927
-2450___-225__1020__1772__1871__'31
-2250___-125__1100__1780__1875__'35
-2050____-25__1180__1788__1879__'39
-1850_____60__1260__1796__1883__'43
-1650____140__1340__1804__1887__'47
-1450____220__1420__1812__1891__'51
-1250____300__1500__1820__1895__'55
-1050____380__1540__1828__1899__'59...

[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited August 21, 2000).]

	21-08-2000 23:44									#27
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Sorry Sten, we were both trying to fix my cruddy work at the same time.

Now where is my laminator?

RAH

	22-08-2000 02:58									#28
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Oh darn!..too late.

My "list" was done with the program called pencil and paper

Sten's will do very nicely.Sorry Rah.But if you think your's was mess..well you didn't see mine.


Too bad we don't have "Apolytoner of Season" right now.

Heres an old one that seems kinda funny now.

http://apolyton.net/forums/Archives...6-3-000584.html

NOTICE Ming's first reply
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited August 21, 2000).]

	22-08-2000 17:06									#29
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Heh, heh, heh!

Oedo,

This year's Apolyton Noble Prize for path breaking research in Civology has your name carved in it!

No money, but lots of honour.

Carolus

	22-08-2000 17:33									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

Great link to the archives. For once I was glad to see that I didn't post to that one.
It was very humorous.

The most interesting point though was all the people that tested (and claimed to prove the) randomness by reloading and trying again. Now I refuse to believe that all those people were lying about testing it. Is there any chance that one of the patches changed it? I doubt it, but it does seem strange.

The next time Ming rags me when he's certain about something, I'll point him to that archive.

RAH