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William Keenan
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New Jersey, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Sep 1999
time: 00:15
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La Fayette
I would prefer that the algorithm prove itself a bit before it is entered in the Great Library. In test scenarios the formula was dead on 80% of the time and within 1.2% otherwise. However, testing in a controlled environment is not the same as testing in a real game. Thus, there may be flaws that have not yet come to light.
SG
You are an astute observer. In fact, there is a rounding error in the algorithm. As a former programmer, I must admit that the rounding in the formula is contrived and unlikely. However, attempts to refine it resulted only in compromising the algorithm's balance.
Capping of gold (science was not check separately) was not seen in test scenarios. Deliveries paying 1000 to 1450 gold with only 8 to 15 techs discovered were frequent. Seeing no cap on gold in evidence, further research into the topic seemed unprofitable.
There may be a connection between beakers and the payoff. In testing, strange results were produced when a civ had fewer than five techs. Beyond that though, no other connection was discernable.
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DaveV
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USA - EDT (GMT-5)
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
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Nice work. Please take the following as constructive criticism.
1) I think the document should include an explanation of how distance is calculated, since that's been a topic of some discussion on the board. I calculated distance as 1 per square, 1.5 per diagonal, so in my attached files the distances to Carthage are Utica 3.5, Malaca 4, Panormus 4.
2) Some differences in trade route bonuses (see attached files). For 650 BC file, if I maximize arrows, Carthage has 24 arrows and Malaca 8. Bonus from your formula is 19; actual payoff is 16. If I move workers to generate 17 and 5 arrows, formula bonus is 13; actual is 10.
For the 600 BC file, if I maximize arrows, Carthage has 34, Panormus 7, and Utica 9. Calcuated payoff Utica->Carthage (with road bonus): 28; actual is 30. Calculated payoff Panormus->Carthage (with demand bonus): 48; actual is 40.
*** Spoiler alert! The attached files are from the "laugh at a Scouse Git" game! ***
 Attachment: dvtrade.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).
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William Keenan
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New Jersey, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Sep 1999
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveV
Nice work. Please take the following as constructive criticism. |
The whole reason I posted this thread was to garner the wisdom and experience of this forum. Input is more than welcome.
quote:
1) I think the document should include an explanation of how distance is calculated, since that's been a topic of some discussion on the board. I calculated distance as 1 per square, 1.5 per diagonal, so in my attached files the distances to Carthage are Utica 3.5, Malaca 4, Panormus 4. |
Yes. I'll add this, just as soon as I understand it. 
quote:
2) Some differences in trade route bonuses ... |
This is really good news! I had no idea how where in the formula the flaw(s) were, but now I have a clue - my distance calculations may not have been accurate. Thanks Dave.
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:15
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There is a very clear explanation of distance calculation in civ2 given by SlowThinker in the thread 'Info: diplomats and spies'
(tested it myself many times: always OK)
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William Keenan
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New Jersey, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Sep 1999
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Xin Yu
Should "flight" be "advanced flight"? |
Nope. Flight is the one.
quote:
Building airports on both cities will cancel the effect of discovering "advanced flight"; also, connecting two cities with railroad will cancel the effect of discovering "railroad". Strangely the prerequisite for building airports is "radio", not "advanced flight". |
The Airport bonus has no connection to the Flight, Advanced Flight, or Radio techs. If two cities with airports get the bonus whether or not that civilization knows how to fly. Funny, eh?
Similarly, the railroad trade bonus is not diminished by a civilization's inability to build box-cars.
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William Keenan
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New Jersey, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Sep 1999
time: 00:15
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distance = (length of longer side of rectangle) + 0.5 * (length of shorter side of rectangle)
This is the distance formula, right?
Last edited by William Keenan on 25-09-2001 at 05:16
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Scouse Gits
- I shall try an ASCII diagram ...
O . . . . . .
. x . . . . .
. . x . . . .
. . . x z z O
Distance = 3 'x' @ 1.5 each + 3 'z' @ 1 each = 7.5
or
Distance = 6 + 0.5(3) = 7.5
or at least this is how I understand it - I would be happy to be corrected if I am in error ... |
No need to correct you AFAIK.
This is also how I understand it, and I have tested it many times.
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debeest
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Am I wrong in thinking that under "Foreign Delivery" you've accidentally placed the text from the beginning of "Commodity Demand" instead of the text you meant to put there?
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debeest
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I just tried delivering three caravans, and in each case the actual payoff was almost exactly 90% of that predicted by your formula. I'm pretty sure that I did the calculations and measurements and so on correctly, but I'd be happy to send you a save if you want to check it out yourself (and if I can remember how). The fact that the results are wrong is disappointing, but the consistency is encouraging because it might mean that only one factor needs tweaking.
Oops. I just realized that I saved AFTER delivering. Still, there are numerous camels lurking in my capital, and I'd bet that a test with remaining ones would give similar results.
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debeest
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Tried it myself with a bunch more caravans. Mostly they came in at about 10% less than predicted by your formula, some closer, one exactly right. Of course, this is all from one game situation, post-navigation, pre-flight, etc. Clearly the formula isn't entirely right, and sadly it's probably not just one factor that's off, but it's far closer than anything I've previously seen. For a long time I've been looking for a way to predict payoff in order to figure out whether it's worth delivering caravans at all. This will help a lot. Thanks!
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William Keenan
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New Jersey, USA, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Sep 1999
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by debeest
Am I wrong in thinking that under "Foreign Delivery" you've accidentally placed the text from the beginning of "Commodity Demand" instead of the text you meant to put there? |
You are exactly right, debeest. It's fixed now. Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by debeest
Tried it myself with a bunch more caravans. Mostly they came in at about 10% less than predicted by your formula, some closer, one exactly right. Of course, this is all from one game situation, post-navigation, pre-flight, etc. Clearly the formula isn't entirely right .... |
When I did the derived the formula I incorrectly counted diagonals as 1 instead of 1.5. This, of course, caused a big problem with the formula. I'm currently working on a revised formula.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveV
William,
See the Diplomats and Spies thread for a complete explanation of how to calculate distance (4.31ff). |
DaveV, your link link goes to the old Apolyton forum. This is the link to the updated Info: diplomats and spies thread.
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markusf
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In trying to brush away the rust, I have been combing civ2 sites for basic info and have come across the nitty-gritties of trade routes which might bear reproducing here (as I have not seen this tabling in the threads I have come across here). Source is the Scrolls of Wisdom website which acknowledged the original post by Robert Lancaster to alt.games.civ2
"The amount of trade and the bonus payment you get for establishing a trade route between two cities with a caravan or a freight depends on quite a few factors. The formulas below contain all the details.
Trade = ( trade of home city + trade of destination city + 4 ) / 8
Note that it does not directly depend on city size or distance. The following (cumulative) modifiers apply:
Both cities are yours -50%
Freight instead of caravan +50%
Cities connected by road +50%
Cities connected by rail +50%
Cities on different continents +100%
Airports in both cities +50%
Superhighways in home city +50%
The one time bonus payment is calculated as follows:
Payment = ( ( distance + 10 ) x ( trade of both cities ) ) / 24
It increases if the destination city demands one of these goods (double these figures if the city is not yours):
Silver, Cloth, Wine +50%
Silk, Spice, Gems, Gold +100%
Oil +150%
Uranium +200%
The final bonus payment figure is then doubled during the first 200 game turns or until both Navigation and Invention are discovered. It is reduced by one third after the discovery of Railroad, and by another third after the discovery of Flight. "
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La Fayette
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albi, france
Oct 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by markusf
have come across the nitty-gritties of trade routes which might bear reproducing here (as I have not seen this tabling in the threads I have come across here). Source is the Scrolls of Wisdom website which acknowledged the original post by Robert Lancaster to alt.games.civ2
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It is very kind of you to provide this, markusf.
But this is already in the GL (look at 'scrolls').
The problem is that many of us think that R. Lancaster's results need to be improved, and that's what William is trying to do.
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10-09-2001 06:21
) posted a graphic depicting exactly which road connections counted toward making the bonus work. That would be a good addition to your paper.
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