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jcarkey
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St. Louis
Aug 2000
time: 23:12
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Ok, I finished my overhaul. The URL is http://www.clarkovision.com/civiliz...apolytongl.html
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Save the whales, collect the whole set!!
If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle
If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith
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Carolus Rex
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Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:12
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Hm, I just took a quick look at the composed document. Nice job, but there are some things that need to be addressed.
The document by Drago Sinio has some flaws IMVHO. I will have to download and read the whole document to be more constructive, but the necessity of certain wonders for example is questionable. Also, when building the space ship it is better to use the caravans for wonderbuilding, then switch to space ship parts rather than disbanding them.
As I said, only took a short look at it so maybe I missed something in which case I apologise. I will have to come back to you with more constructive comments after reading it more carefully.
Carolus
[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited January 11, 2001).]
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jcarkey
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St. Louis
Aug 2000
time: 23:12
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CR, I don't wirte the articles, I just arrange them. If you have any disputes over atricle content talk to the author. If it's spelling or anything not related to content then I can fix it. SG, I'll do those and the other articles that I have been forgetting to put up. I'm changing my site so the GL will be temporarily closed until I can get links to the articles. (Of course you could always just browse my unlinked pages.)
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Save the whales, collect the whole set!!
If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle
If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith
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jcarkey
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St. Louis
Aug 2000
time: 23:12
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CR, ok, I understand what you mean. I'm sorry for that one. I'll try and get it finished. Well the delay is over. I finally got a new interface on the GL. I checked all of my links, they seem to work fine. The frame link is here the non-frames is here. If you view all of my website you can tell it is under construction. Please ignore this! I figured i should get the GL up ASAP to help out people in need of gaming advice.
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Save the whales, collect the whole set!!
If Al Gore invented the Internet, then I invented the spell check- Dan Quayle
If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith
[This message has been edited by jcarkey (edited January 17, 2001).]
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Carolus Rex
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Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:12
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jcarkey,
I don't think "A is for alphabet" is in the composed document? Must admit I haven't followed the discussion on the organisation of the Apolyton GL, maybe it shouldn't be in there as there is a link to the thread here?
My research is going lousy today, think I will dig up some more threads that can be of use.
Carolus
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Gastrifitis
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The happy land of Engineers
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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Hi!
I can't believe I've been playing Civ since the original came out, and didn't know about this site. This is a fantasy camp. I've been reading until my eyes blistered, mostly off this topic. Now I have lots of plans for playing the game in ways that never interested me before, or I didn't know about. In the spirit of contributing, I've expanded on something mentioned in one of the threads, and added analysis. Maybe it will be useful in the recommended Civ II FAQ. I hope this is based off of the original rules.txt file; make changes as necessary.
*** The Lone Engineer at Work***
This is a listing of all the times required for a single Engineer to complete a given task. Settlers would take approximately twice as long for the tasks they can compete. In each case, time is measured from the turn you give the Engineer orders to the next turn the Engineer can receive instructions. So, if you tell an Engineer to build a road on grassland, the road will be done instantly. But the Engineer cannot take further orders until next turn; it takes one turn of the Engineer's life to complete the task.
TURNS TASK
1* Build a road on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
2* Build a road on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
3* Build a road on a mountain
2* Build a railroad on grassland/plains/desert/tundra
4* Build a railroad on forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier
6* Build a railroad on a mountain
* Building roads or railroads on squares with a river always takes one extra turn.
3 Irrigate/farmland grassland/plains/desert
5 Irrigate/farmland tundra/hills
3 Clear a forest (plains)
8 Clear a swamp/jungle (grassland)
5 Reforest grassland
8 Reforest plains/swamp/jungle
3 Mine a desert
5 Mine hills/mountain
8 Mine a glacier
10 Transform grassland/plains/desert/tundra (to hills/grassland/plains/desert)
20 Transform forest/hills/swamp/jungle/glacier (to grassland/plains/plains/plains/tundra)
30 Transform mountain (to hills)
2 Clear pollution/build fortress/build airbase on any square
Now, what do we learn from this? Well, let's say you have a forest square and you want it to be grassland. The Transform command will get you there--in a mere 20 turns. On the other hand, you could clear the forest, then transform the plains. If you do, you'll save 7 turns. Or let's say you have a fruit (jungle) square and want to make it a wheat (plains) square. Again, the Transform command takes 20 turns. But if you reforest the jungle (silk), then clear the forest, you get the wheat square 9 turns faster.
Obviously, some Transform commands are relatively worthless. But the timing for transformation seems to be based on the movement penalty for a square. Probably not worth changing. However, by going into the rules.txt file, you could change the results of the transform command. For example, you could make forests transform to mountain squares (gold!), or make jungle squares transform to desert (the Sahara is coming!). You can even make squares transform to ocean and back. Such a command would cost an Engineer or a ship every time it was carried out, but might be worth it anyway. If you don't feel like changing the rules.txt file, just remember that the direct route isn't always the best one when it comes to transforming.
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jcarkey
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St. Louis
Aug 2000
time: 23:12
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Thanks for the encouragement. I really need to work on this. I guess I will spend the rest of this weekend on the GL. If you noticed on my location it should say Apolyton's Lazy Great Librarian.
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If someone doesn't agree with you, you haven't explained yourself well enough-Luther Ely Smith
She turned me into a newt...well I got better- Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail
How many boards could the Mongols horde, if the Mongol hordes got bored?- jcarkey
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KenThur
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North San Francisco Bay, California Republic
May 1999
time: 05:12
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Nice job, jc... until the links broke down. Maybe U have fixed those?
Little suggestion. Why don't turn off your signature here? It takes up more space than your posts & it's cutiness wears off after we've read it twice.
We like your contributions here, save your cutiness for other places?
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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"
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Slow Thinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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REVEILLE!
WE HAVE TO DO SOME WORK HERE!
I would like to call back to starting idea of this thread. Although original idea of Scouse Gits wasn't accepted by administration of Apolyton, it is possible to do something else.
Let's see the current situation:
Bulk of knowledge comes into one of following categories:
A. How to play (strategies, tips,tricks...)
B. How it works (rules, facts, formulas, game mechanics...)
Knowledge of group A is created mostly by individuals and needn't to be processed using collaboration of many people. Jcarkey's "Compostion" holds main strategies well.
But organization of knowledge of group B is very neglected at Apolyton:
Identical problems are discussed in several different threads. People usually start a new thread since it is hard to find the appropriate past thread. Therefore it is very tedious if you try to extract a concrete information. It is really depressing: for example, if you watch how people starts debates about basics of the combat system again and again ...
Idea of "Compostion" may not be applied succesfully here. Knowledge of group B should be constantly updated and corrected.
This is my idea what should we do with group B now:
a) to debate about the best way how to organize and sort it
b) to define groups (for example caravans, happiness, barbarians, combat system, demographics window, governments...)
and for each group
c) to collect threads that contain any information related to the group
d) to arrange all knowledge related to the group into one place
Notes:
I think we should cooperate on building of each group: cooperation improves the morale.
In the beginning we should concentrate to few groups only.
[This message has been edited by Slow Thinker (edited March 19, 2001).]
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Slow Thinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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This is my contribution to item a) "to debate about the best way how to do it"
Every group (for example "happiness") would be managed through two threads.
The first thread would be named "Threads: happiness" and the starting post will hold threads that contain any information about happiness. People will send names of new discovered threads (possibly with the author and date/time if few of posts is related to happiness).
The second thread would be named "Info: happiness" and will be managed similar way like "Info: diplomats and spies" thread. (Post 3: "List of my sources" will be renamed to "Threads that were completely included already" and it will contain a subset of the first post of "Threads: happiness".)
I would include short trick and tips too.
Words "Info:" and "Threads:" (with colons!) are essential: If you will let Apolyton to search for "Info:" within a name of thread then you will obtain a perfect starting page for all knowledge managed this way.
Of course, words "Info" and "Threads" may be substituted by more appropriate terms.
[This message has been edited by Slow Thinker (edited March 19, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Slow Thinker (edited March 23, 2001).]
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Slow Thinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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Marquis de Sodaq, I am not sure what do you mean by
outline: one level outline or hierarchical one?
index: a lexicographic index?
About index:
A "search" feature is built-in Apolyton (you may choose a forum to search in). If we would persuade admins to create a specific forum...
I had an idea of a special indexing, look at "A New Forum: Civ2 Research". Search for "keyword". The first sentence is "I think another problem is more urgent:".
In fact, we could put "[keywords]" directly into threads, not to names of threads, but serching would be slower.
About hierarchical outlines:
A hierarchical outline could be useful also for type B. First or first and second levels would point to threads of type "Info: diplomats and spies", next levels would point inside threads.
But i think that indexing and hierarchical outlines are not vital. The first step should be
1. any outlines / lists of threads
2. encapsulating (it is relatively easy in the case A. but more laborious in the case B. (threads of type "Info: dips and spies"))
[This message has been edited by Slow Thinker (edited March 23, 2001).]
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Slow Thinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Feb 2001
time: 05:12
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SG(2),
There could be two or more distinguished categories of links :
a)links to threads as "Info: diplomats and spies" (with higher value of information, with higher density of information)
b)link to threads with any information related to the topic.
But, if you will try to index threads with any information, a detailed index (Sabotage,Poisoning,Bribing,...) would be very very laborious: It would be easier to build threads of type "Info: ..." first and then index these threads.
I would suggest a brief index (just one term: "diplomats and spies")in the beginning. It will be laborious enough.
If I compare a detailed index and hierarchical structure, I would prefer hierarchical structure: you know, Civ has very logical and serried structure...
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Marquis de Sodaq
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... no, a Marquis.
Jul 2000
time: 23:12
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ST and SG(2), what I have in mind is similar to what both of you suggest above. By outline I mean a hierarchical tree showing all topics linked. For example:
1. Spy
a. sabotage
b. steal tech
and so on with links to the info. I put it out as an idea to organizing divergent threads as they typically take shape in the forums. However, if the useless filler posts are weeded out, this form may not be useful.
An brief index would be more appropriate for sources such as the "Diplomats and Spies" example we've talked about. I agree with ST that CivII offers an excellent begin point for this format; Particular game elements (ST's type A info), such as Spies, Hills, OCC, can easily be linked by a topic in the index. Subtopics need not be linked, but could simply provide the browser details about what is contained in the linked thread/post.
As far as the database being too large - there's just too much info for that to be any different. Organization is the key to simplifying large databases. In my real life I manage a database of some 300,000 always changing land records with 200 columns of data each. It's monstrous, but made simple by having been created with DESIGN. While tedious, putting this sort of thing together goes faster than you might expect.
The final GL could be fantastic if the index is planned with a particular format as an end goal. I would vote for placing emphasis on the type of thread that "Diplomats and Spies" is. One link, all the collective info. If the topic requires subtopic links, good. This could be viewed as a two stage development. The initial topic links get made first. Any very long posts or threads that need subtopic links could follow as needed, once the material is more or less solidified. Cross references might only be needed for linking themes for which the browser does not know the particular game element. Examples might be "maximizing shield production," with links to strategies; or "bribery," with links to government forms and spies. This could by nature only follow the initial organization - a spin on the keyword issue you discussed above.
Before this becomes an essay, I'll close and look for your responses!
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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon
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02-01-2001 06:30
They complement each other.
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