15-09-2001 20:57									#31
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quote: guys, the truth of the matter is we still don't have an answer, yet the crowd is calmer and the small riot has faded away. Welcome to the joys of PR, and you all fell for it.

What I meant by my post, "Thanks Mike for giving us a post of that manner", is how he at least responded to all of us. I wasn't expecting a post of him explaining the MP issue but to explain the position of Firaxis. I appreciated the manner Mike took in his post.

	15-09-2001 22:21									#32
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I thought it was pretty ominous how he basically agreed that there is a "code of silence" here. That a strategic decision has been taklen not to answer the question.

It's pretty obvious that MP WAS intended to be part of the game, but now isn't. I don't mind them charging for MP as an add-on. I do think it's silly to play "secret" about it.

	16-09-2001 01:11									#33
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I'm just annoyed that everytime someone from firaxis posts, we all say something like "a god has spoken" or "we aren't mad at you". When a gaming company gets you to think they have a one-on-one relationship with the consumer, they secure your trust and then your fifty bucks. If I worked as a programmer for a major release, I probably wouldn't care if one of 10,000 users on apolyton was angry at me or thought me a deity.

Time for someone to answer the question. We were all yelling "I'm not buying the game if they don't put MP in" and stuff like that 24 hours ago. Mike posts, directing us to the ATCT link, and it's quiet time. Even the mighty Yin fell victim and bowed to Mike upon direct confrontation.

Granted, I don't expect a press release from him. But judging by some poster's reactions, we got one. What I read was something like:

"Hi, programmer checking in. Can't answer question, email our PR people. Civ3 is going to be great."



guys, we need an answer eventually. all these marketing gimmicks firaxis is pulling on us shouldn't be forgotten because one of their programmers posts an obscure message. hats off to him, because he seems to be a nice guy. but don't get suckered, it's your money and you have a right to get an answer for it.

I would offer an observation that it isn't usual business practice for workers to discuss an ongoing project openly to the public. Therefore the only reason for it in my mind is PR all the way. hope I'm wrong though, but it makes sense.

	16-09-2001 01:30									#34
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quote: guys, the truth of the matter is we still don't have an answer, yet the crowd is calmer and the small riot has faded away. Welcome to the joys of PR, and you all fell for it.

Actually I am one of the people that was practically rioting a week ago over MP. It is just hard to get all riled up about a game when I watched in horror as thousands of my fellow countrymen were slaughtered. So yes I am going to continue to ask for MP and say that I am worried about it. But my anger/dedication/furry is just not there.

	16-09-2001 02:33									#35
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agreed, but thinking constantly about how down our country is only gives the monsters more joy. My friend lost a brother in the WTC, and the last thing he wants is all the constant media attention, believe it or not. Life goes on, retaliation will be swift, and no way will their damage spread to everyday life.

That being said, CyberShy's question should still be considered an open one until Firaxis' PR can come up with a solid answer. And the odds of that aren't encouraging, so needless to say we should be pretty disappointed in the lack of one up to this point.

	16-09-2001 02:51									#36
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quote: Even the mighty Yin fell victim and bowed to Mike upon direct confrontation.

Nonsense. Despite what people might sometimes think, I'm a reasonable person. It is NOT Mike's to tell us everything his own bosses won't. I imagine there has been a meeting at Firaxis, especially after the 'secret e-mail' fiasco that Sid and Co. told everybody something like: "Leak information not cleared by us and lose your job."

Sorry if you can't understand that.

Trust me. I have railed against Firaxis plenty. I have a thread dedicated to the topic about PR. Why not post there and keep it active?

	16-09-2001 02:52									#37
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By the way, I am voting with my money. Firaxis will NOT be getting my money for Civ 3 until and unless I can find the complete version in the bargain bin, perhaps in early 2003.

	16-09-2001 04:37									#38
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I'm awaiting the "I finally broke down and bought Civ3" thread. You already broke down on your self-imposed exile. You spent too much time on the list and on these boards not to go get the game.

	16-09-2001 06:13									#39
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Thanks Mike ! I think most of us at Apolyton got more attention to the WTC thingy. Read the Off Topic forum, 6 pages of threads about it. Thanks for your answer. CyberShy

i know right i have 6 windows open on the OT and 1 on civ3 forums

wiglaf - i have come to read many of your posts lat++++as i have been much more active on these forums lat++++with the release of civ3 highly anticipated, and 10 x more increased since the WTC incidents, and i hvae come to the conclusion that you are highly over-reactive and confrontational about everything. you need to calm down

	16-09-2001 06:42									#40
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As far as I know no one has bowed to any pressure.

The evidence remains the same:

1) There is a lid on information from Firaxis regarding MP.

2) It seems clear that MP won't be in the Oct release of the game. If you want MP then buy the game in the Spring when the "Gold Edition" is released.

3) I'm disappointed but I'm not angry about it. Obviously the publisher is calling the shots. Just take a look at the MoO3 forum. Same thing happening there.

	16-09-2001 07:01									#41
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The other thing is what else am I supposed to say about Mike's comments?

To me it is obvious that they will not answer my questions and that they won't give us a straight answer on MP. It is also fairly obvious to me that MP will not be in the game come October. Plus I have said everything and argued with everyone that not including MP is an important thing to the game. So what else do you want me to say?

So when Mike does post I will say thanks for the reply. Even if he didn't give me what I wanted he gave me something. And something leads to more hopefully if we are polite with our replies. So maybe in the future Mike will say, "Hey tniem was a really nice guy to me when I gave them a fake reply to MP, so maybe I will answer his question about ____________".

	16-09-2001 08:29									#42
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quote: You spent too much time on the list and on these boards not to go get the game.

Oh, I think I'll probably buy the game, but once the Gold Edition or whatever comes out. I decided not to spend my money on the Limited Edition because I don't want to see incompetent management in action ('behind the scenes stuff'). Also, we ALL know it will be 3 or 4 patches from now, and probably and over-priced X-pack on top of that, before the game is truly as good as it should have been on release.

So when they've earned my money, I'll consider giving it to them.

	16-09-2001 08:30									#43
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Actually I find his repsonse disheartening, We are aksed to contact Firaxis direct via ASKthecivteam... I did that and got no repsonse at all, not even a "we are busy right now and will repsond later" .. they are ignoring the MPers as they know they will sell lots of game sto SPers without us... I am sad for our loss of a great game...

	16-09-2001 09:11									#44
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Maybe the game is worth paying twice? I mean think of how much good entertainment time that a civ game gives you...

	16-09-2001 16:05									#45
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quote: i hvae come to the conclusion that you are highly over-reactive and confrontational about everything. you need to calm down

I take it you are referring to glonk's antitrust topic. I don't think I was overly confrontational there. that's about as polite as it gets when you're talking about a hot issue like that in the OT - no swearing, insults, etc. I don't see where I crossed a line here or there....

In any case I think it's too bad Mike isn't giving us the info we asked for. Of course it isn't his fault, but directing us to a PR link isn't a massive revelation, and it did not deserve all the praise it got. Mike has a job, he's asking for our $50-$70 - we deserve an answer.

So instead of 'thanks, keep up the good work' we should keep on saying what we always were: all this silence from firaxis and their ulterior motive behind a quick October release shouldn't just be shrugged off because of a forum post. Mike seems like a nice guy, but he is - any way you slice it - doing PR. Too bad I'll be flamed for it, but that's my opinion.

and once again, since mike cannot disclose information, and since he has long hours, I doubt he would be at apolyton for any reason other than PR. normally, chatting about a game you're making isn't a sound plan for a game company.

	16-09-2001 17:16									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf I'm just annoyed that everytime someone from firaxis posts, we all say something like "a god has spoken" or "we aren't mad at you". When a gaming company gets you to think they have a one-on-one relationship with the consumer, they secure your trust and then your fifty bucks. If I worked as a programmer for a major release, I probably wouldn't care if one of 10,000 users on apolyton was angry at me or thought me a deity.

It works the same way as strippers. They are very good at smiling at men or talking to them in a way that makes you think they really care about you and are interested in you personally. And of course the men who go to strip clubs are as incredibly fixated on the women as us Apolyton civ-freaks are on Civ3. So when a stripper whispers in a man's ear he'll break down and fork over money. When a Firaxis programmer posts in a gamer's thread he'll break down and fork over money.

I encourage you all to be strong! Don't cut Mike or anyone else any slack, its typical pass the buck tactics. Of course no one we could talk to is personally responsible for any of the decisions made in the game. Everything is decided by 'others' or by groups confering. Mike however works there, he knows whoever it is that makes decisions, or at least knows what is going on so they can tell us. If Mike or anyone else gave a damn about us they could tell that person there are quite a lot of pissed of civ-fans out there who want answers.

Of course they already know we are here, but they are ignoring us anyways.

The boycott stands!

	16-09-2001 17:38									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Mike has a job, he's asking for our $50-$70 - we deserve an answer.

Mike is not asking for our $
The company that he works for does.
If we deserve an answer, it's from the companies that develop and publish Civ3, not a from a from someone whose job description doesnt include giving official answers to our questions....

	16-09-2001 19:41									#48
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quote: Mike is not asking for our $ The company that he works for does. If we deserve an answer, it's from the companies that develop and publish Civ3, not a from a from someone whose job description doesnt include giving official answers to our questions....

mike is asking for our money, he needs it to feed himself. in order to boost profit, answering upset consumers on a pretty populated message board is very reasonable...only you cannot discuss anything not already covered by the higher ups.

So when mike posts, "ask the PR guys", he's essentially saying you won't get an answer - at the same time, though, he managed to shut all of the people previously complaining right up.

in other words, mike's posting makes firaxis appear involved in the community, and that sure doesn't hurt. we know the same information (or lack thereof) now as we did before he posted, only no one's upset anymore.

	16-09-2001 19:49									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf mike is asking for our money, he needs it to feed himself.

firaxis feeds mike, not you and me. he is an employee not a company.

quote: So when mike posts, "ask the PR guys", he's essentially saying you won't get an answer

no, he is just saying "it's not my job to make such announcements". if you send a complaint mail to mike about mp and dont get answer, you have no reason to complain. if you send a message on the feedback page or whatever they have on the site and dont get any kind of answers, you do have a reason to complain

quote: we know the same information (or lack thereof) now as we did before he posted, only no one's upset anymore.

actually, the discussion on MP had nearly died several days before mike's post....

	16-09-2001 19:51									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf mike is asking for our money, he needs it to feed himself. in order to boost profit, answering upset consumers on a pretty populated message board is very reasonable...only you cannot discuss anything not already covered by the higher ups.

No he is not. That is not how it works. He is hired to make the game's code. He is being paid. He has a job until the company folds or fires people. So him doing good work is important. But if the game doesn't sell it won't be his fault and if he did good work he can find another job. In your company, are you responsible for the company's bottom line? No, it might impact you but it is not necessarily your job. He is just doing his job which has nothing to do with sales.

quote: So when mike posts, "ask the PR guys", he's essentially saying you won't get an answer - at the same time, though, he managed to shut all of the people previously complaining right up.

What he is saying is that it is not his job to answer the questions. He is telling us he is reading what we have to say but that he cannot give out info that he is not allowed to do. Which is the proper answer. And while we may not get an answer from the PR, if he is doing his job we will not get an answer from him so he is giving us the proper people to talk to.

quote: in other words, mike's posting makes firaxis appear involved in the community, and that sure doesn't hurt. we know the same information (or lack thereof) now as we did before he posted, only no one's upset anymore.

And I am telling you that your wrong. I am still mad about the whole situation. But there is nothing I can do or he can do. So what am I supposed to do? Continue yelling at a guy that can't answer us anyways? Alright you do that but I am not going to waste my time.

	16-09-2001 20:11									#51
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quote: And I am telling you that your wrong. I am still mad about the whole situation. But there is nothing I can do or he can do. So what am I supposed to do? Continue yelling at a guy that can't answer us anyways? Alright you do that but I am not going to waste my time.

"Thanks for the reply Mike. Please understand most of us are not mad at you. We just wish that someone from Firaxis would explain MP to us. That is all, just a simple post on your own website."

you totally caved in

quote: firaxis feeds mike, not you and me. he is an employee not a company.

Our Money ---- Firaxis ---- Mike > programmers
Our Money XXX Firaxis =
Our Money XXX Mike > programmers



so basically, it's in the best interest of mike that we buy the game, because that translates into pay hikes; alternatively, a bomb translates into unemployment - so he is asking for our money, whether it technically feeds him or not.

quote: What he is saying is that it is not his job to answer the questions. He is telling us he is reading what we have to say but that he cannot give out info that he is not allowed to do. Which is the proper answer. And while we may not get an answer from the PR, if he is doing his job we will not get an answer from him so he is giving us the proper people to talk to.

so why are we all saying "thank you"? that's why I'm so confused...why are we loving mike to death for doing something he all but had to do? because he seems initiated in the community and on the level with us - a bonus every company likes to have.

I'm a huge civ fan and I can't wait for civ3. So when I have an important question and a firaxis guy avoids it like some sort of terrible disease, I can only assume that Mike only checked in to shut us up.

	16-09-2001 22:11									#52
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Wiglaf, you failed to answer to this

quote: That is not how it works. He is hired to make the game's code. He is being paid. He has a job until the company folds or fires people. So him doing good work is important. But if the game doesn't sell it won't be his fault and if he did good work he can find another job. In your company, are you responsible for the company's bottom line? No, it might impact you but it is not necessarily your job. He is just doing his job which has nothing to do with sales.

	16-09-2001 22:24									#53
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quote: That is not how it works. He is hired to make the game's code. He is being paid. He has a job until the company folds or fires people. So him doing good work is important. But if the game doesn't sell it won't be his fault and if he did good work he can find another job. In your company, are you responsible for the company's bottom line? No, it might impact you but it is not necessarily your job. He is just doing his job which has nothing to do with sales.

I'm not sure what you're getting at there. If civ3 tanks, things will not bode well for Firaxis programmers. Therefore Mike and others will do everything in their power to boost sales, but I'm sure they've cleared their forum presence here with higher-ups. Allowing your workers to chat it up about everything on a public message board isn't a logical thing to do, given the nature of the industry.

Whether or not civ3 does poorly, programmers can still be assigned to have an internet presence. IMO mike is here on a PR trip to make firaxis a "part of the community" and all that nice warm and fuzzy stuff right up until you hit the store shelves. lay down the $50, and walk out. it makes sense.

If I'm still not answering your question or even coming close, please clarify

	16-09-2001 22:29									#54
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Catch 22...don't post, and you'll alienate the customers...

Tell then no MP...you'll alienate customers...

Say nothing, but promise great things are on the way...and the drones may well stop complaining...

Which way did you think they'd go?

May sound cynical...but I was promised patches for Ultima 9 and CtP II...both games were left broken and incomplete. Now if Origin and EA can let you down...what makes you think I'll have any more faith in Firaxis?
-Fallen_Avatar

	16-09-2001 22:57									#55
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I agree...

But if we are shafted bye Civ3 and Firaxis. That is it for the Civilization series.The reason Activisions profits were hammered was simple. Was because, word got out the Mplayer did not work, and that single player a freakin sack of freakin bugs that couldnt even go 50 turns without crashing.Once word got out, people began returning the game and that was it.

Many of us CTP2 users resent activision for selling us a broken game . We dont quite trust everybody....

Pelase Firaxis, dont let us down! Or you will pay a fatal price. Users will react the same way they did to Activision.

	16-09-2001 23:05									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf I'm not sure what you're getting at there. If civ3 tanks, things will not bode well for Firaxis programmers.

doubt it.
i know of people from the ctp2 team who instantly found jobs in other companies no matter it's failure...

	17-09-2001 00:41									#57
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quote: I'm not sure what you're getting at there. If civ3 tanks, things will not bode well for Firaxis programmers.

The programmers will most likely not get the brunt of the "punishment" if the game flops. Usually programmers are assigned work to perform. The work that that is being performed is what makes the game. The people who usually create the work for the programmers to perform are the creative development team and other game development groups. It is not the programmers fault for a failed game usually.

To give my overall opinion on the subject of Mike's post. Yes, Mike will is only posting here to entice customers to buy Civ3 but he is not required to do so. In not being required to do so Mike can answer any question he feels fitting. While, Mike may be having a business motive behind his posting all his posts should be appreciated.

	17-09-2001 00:42									#58
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quote: doubt it. i know of people from the ctp2 team who instantly found jobs in other companies no matter it's failure...

maybe mike will be as lucky, or maybe he won't. Bottom line: he wants us to buy civ3. Having programmed for a big hit is better than working on a dud, anyway you slice it.

the point of my rant is simple: mike gave us a PR statement, not an actual response. Is that his fault? Maybe, probably not. Does it deserve a 'thanks, keep up the good work, we love you'? Nope. If anything, it deserves more pressure for an answer.

there are disclosure agreements programmers sign, right?

quote: While, Mike may be having a business motive behind his posting all his posts should be appreciated.

ahh, but his recent one was more of a jab at our intelligence.. "email our PR guys". who's he kiddin? If there is a business motive, which there is, I don't think we should heap on the 'he loves us, he really does' praise just yet

	17-09-2001 00:59									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf there are disclosure agreements programmers sign, right?

dont think they actually something like that, but you can be sure there rules on what they discuss in public. and under these rules, it is certain he has no "right" to discuss such a big issue perhaps when the company hasnt even decided what is going to be done.

therefore, what will more "pressure" towards mike do in this case? nothing at all

	17-09-2001 01:12									#60
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quote: dont think they actually something like that, but you can be sure there rules on what they discuss in public. and under these rules, it is certain he has no "right" to discuss such a big issue perhaps when the company hasnt even decided what is going to be done. therefore, what will more "pressure" towards mike do in this case? nothing at all

the alternative is to dump on praise, and that just isn't justified. more pressure would transmit the message that delaying a response to rack up preorders isn't going over well with the people - the same people they want to look like happy neighbors to.

Ask the civ team would probably get filtered out. They only read a handful of letters, censored to bits. Granted, yelling at Mike would accomplish little, but it'd do worlds more than just "thanks, you're a god to me man".

No need to yell, actually. Just a polite "that's not good enough, Breitkreutz" would suffice.