28-06-2002 21:34									#31
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Welcome, Starlifter!

quote: Originally posted by starlifter ST or GP, Is it possible to provide a link to that discussion? I would like to read it.

Partisans emerging after bribing a city

Starlifter, how did you get these facts about needed techs? In other words, how much can we trust you ?

	29-06-2002 02:05									#32
	Test results Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by GP slow do you finally agree that communism lets loose the evil of partisans.

GP, you pushed me to testing:
I think 4 techs affect partisans: Guerilla, Communism, Gunpowder and Conscription. Both starlifter and thoddy have probably errors in their results.

I will define the term city level:
city size 4-11: level 1
city size 12-19: level 2
city size 20-27: level 3
etc.

shortcuts from rules.txt:
Communism=Cmn, Conscription=Csc, Guerrilla Warfare=Gue, Gunpowder=Gun

My test:
MGE, cheat mode, city of level 6 (size 44), both civs under monarchy
attacker has no tech (i.e. I didn't test the effect of attacker's techs)
defender's techs, number of partisans:
Csc=0 Gun=0 Cmn=0 Gue=10
Cmn+Csc=0 Csc+Gun=0 Cmn+Gun=5 Gue+Cmn=10 Gue+Csc=12 Gue+Gun=10
Cmn+Gun+Csc=6 Gue+Cmn+Gun=10 Gue+Gun+Csc=12 Gue+Cmn+Csc=12
Gue+Cmn+Gun+Csc=12

Using words:
Gue is the main tech: Gue alone gives 10, if you add Csc you get full number (12).
without Gue: Cmn+Gun=5, Cmn+Gun+Csc=6

edited: monarchy added

	29-06-2002 02:28									#33
	Get a bigger avatar today!

A note: The conquered tech counts (they can affect the number of partisans)! (partisans appear after the attacker chooses a defender's tech).

quote: Originally posted by Thoddy defensive terrain has the only effect where the emerging partisans were placed . first partisan to the best devensive terrain and so on. There is a special pattern of setting the Partisans you can see, if all terrain is the same.

That pattern is equal to the pattern of barbs coming from huts and to the pattern of working squares around cities by AI (BTW-this is an useful information for the sea squares: if the AI gets here first then a boat won't claim the square for you).

	29-06-2002 03:22									#34
	more testing Suffering from ads?

I continued the test:

As far as attacker's techs are concerned: only Guerilla Warfare affects (lowers) the number of partisans.

numbers of partisans: attacker has no tech/ attacker has Gue
Gue=10/6
Cmn+Gun=5/5 Cmn+Gun+Csc=6/6
Gue+Cmn=10/6 Gue+Gun=10/6 Gue+Csc=12/7

	29-06-2002 03:36									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Starlifter by GP: GP, are you saying that it is only Communism that unleashes Partisans? And nothing else? ST or GP, Is it possible to provide a link to that discussion? I would like to read it. A couple observations: A. Communism is not necessary to produce Partisans. B. You can have Communism, and not produce Partisans. The key is the combination of 3 techs: 1. Gunpowder 2. Communism 3. Guerilla warfare 1+2 = Partisans 3 alone = Partisans 1 alone = No Partisans! 2 alone = No Partisans! In words, anytime civ possess Guerilla Warfare, the civ's captured cities can spew Partisans. If you have Communism, but No Gunpowder and No Guerilla Warfare, then no Partisans emerge. So Communism alone will not unleash the evils of Partisans . But Communism alone is not too common, however... most people discover Gunpowder by then, but it is not necessary to do so. Of course, to have neither Gunpowder nor Communism yet possess GW means you need outside help, like stealing a tech, capturing or trading a tech, or a preset game. This also means Thoddy's equation, while valid in one context, is only a partial solution to the final Partisan issue. PS, Nice work, Thoddy! My only work on this was for size 13 and below a couple years ago, with a manual table and no formula.... brute force testing, LOL!

Very interesting. I did not realize that it worked this way. In had thought it was just 2 that mattered. Did not realize it was this complex. For practical purposes, 2 will usually mean 1 already. And 3 will usually mean 2 already.

	29-06-2002 03:47									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

slow, the manual says that Gue increases the amount of partisans. It is evident from your testing that the onset of partisans derives from getting communism. (given that GP is already there...which it almost always will be.) So for practical purposes (i.e. well over 50% of gameplay times) you will see partisans after communism and before Gue.

	29-06-2002 03:49									#37
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hey C-141 boy! I thought you were scared of the hurly burly over here.

	29-06-2002 04:15									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SlowThinker starlifter ...have probably errors in their results

I take this back, starlifter is right. My results don't go against starlifter's ones.

But...in some situations starlifter's partisan may be "rounded" to 0. For example Cmn+Gun might give 0 after rounding, but Cmn+Gun+Csc might give 1.
In other words, starlifter's conclusion is always correct "theoretically" (before rounding, or with large cities), but it may be "wrong" in reality (after rounding with small cities).

	29-06-2002 05:32									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Hey C-141 boy! I thought you were scared of the hurly burly over here

No, it's a matter of being able to connect to the Apolyton site. From 2 ISP's I've had here in Seattle, it is almost impossible to use Apolyton. Slow Thinker helped me contact MarkG a couple weeks ago, and I showed him my network trace results.... MarkG says it's a bad DNS that does not have the correct Apolyton DN to Dot Address data, which means no connection will occur. So now he sent me a dot address that I type in by hand. It works about 70% of the time, but is very very very slow.... 3 to 5 minutes for a single page to come up is typical. And many times, my post never makes it to Apolyton... Two so far today have not made it into this thread, as I now see. Its a 50-50 shot for this one too, I suppose.


To ST: It is easy to test the Gunpowder/Communism/GW relationship in cheat mode, as I'm sure you are or will do. I was unable to get Conscription to affect it, but it really made common sense that it should the way I was thinking of it. But Conscription + Communism = No Partisan Emergence.

By using Cheat to give all techs, then just removing GW, Comm, and Gunpowder, you can definitively eliminate other tech combinations with Communism.... which is one way I eliminated what were to me the most logial choices (e.g., Consc & Tactics).

	29-06-2002 05:39									#40
	Suffering from ads?

However, we have a number of cases where the cheat menu had given results not verifyable in actual game play - so what exactly have you proved?

The SGs lubricated

	29-06-2002 06:36									#41
	Remove this text

Still, lacking information to the contrary, I'm ready to accept SlowThinker's results. Good work! May I suggest a post that summarizes this (pretty much as you've already done) for a GL link?

	29-06-2002 07:28									#42
	Concurrent formula Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

My concurrent-formula (without the effect of attacker's Guerilla Warfare):

CityLevel = RoundDown[(CitySize+4)/8]

PreqType: prerequisite type
There are two situations when partisans arise:
defender has Guerilla Warfare: then PreqType=2
defender has Gunpowder+Communism: then PreqType=1

CscModifier: Conscription modifier
defender has not Conscription: then CscModifier=-1
defender has Conscription: then CscModifier=0

govindexD- form of government defender index value
govindexA- form of government attacker index value
Index Values
Anarchy=1,Desp=2, Mon=3, Com=4, Fund=5, Rep =6, Dem=7

The formula:
Partisans = [CityLevel*(1 + 1/2*abs(govindexD-govindexA)) + CscModifier] * PreqType
(the result is rounded down)

A note: The max. number of partisans is 20 (if no sea square is in the city "radius") - i.e. only one partisan may arise on one square.

**********************************************

quote: Originally posted by SGs However, we have a number of cases where the cheat menu had given results not verifyable in actual game play - so what exactly have you proved? The SGs lubricated

Please check the formula out when you will be less lubricated.

	29-06-2002 07:45									#43
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by GP So for practical purposes (i.e. well over 50% of gameplay times) you will see partisans after communism and before Gue.

For practical purposes you can play a russian roulette with 2 projectiles from 5 with no danger.

	29-06-2002 08:18									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well...I appreciate your establishing the definitve relationship...but still feel vindicated in our earlier disagreement.

	29-06-2002 11:24									#45
	Full PM-box? Change here!

by SG:

quote: However, we have a number of cases where the cheat menu had given results not verifyable in actual game play - so what exactly have you proved? a

I assume that is for me, since it followed my post.

The actual observation began with a real game, because at the time I assumed Communism was enough to give partisans.

I think this is Brian/Sid's logic: If you reach communism, but your civ does not have gunpowder, then why should your civ's captured cities produce Gunpowder partisans? How can your people become equipped and trained (assuming normal flow of research) to deploy a tach that your civ has no knowledge of yet?

So when you have Communism, then finally discover Gunpowder, you get people taking to the hills with guns (partisans).

It takes a tech tree jump to get to the advance of GW without Comm or GP, but once a civ actually knows how to make Partisans, you get the unit coming form your captured cities, too.

That's my take on it.

People should naturally feel free to test it. I am not familiar with the cases or examples of how/when using Cheat Mode affects gameplay (beyond the obvious direct effects). Is there a link to it? To my knowledge, a tech is a tech.... if you got it, it has its effect.... no matter if it was stolen, traded, researched, edited with Cheat Mode.

So I'm personally sure that GP/Comm/GW are the only 3 techs that turn on/off the Partisans from captured cities. But if someone discovers something different, we've all learned something new!

	29-06-2002 11:42									#46
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: CityLevel = RoundDown[(CitySize+4)/8]

That is in definite keeping with my tables of results from a long time ago. Back then I did not consider gov't type, but I did notice the "cutoffs" at 4 and 12, which is why I quit testing at 13, since smaller AI cities were all I was normally encountering. It's nice to see you guys have drilled down to the real answers, as it always bugged me that I could not just look at a city and not know how many Partisans would emerge... I often overplanned my Partisan control efforts as a result, esp. until more of a "feel" developed.

Good job, Th & St!

	29-06-2002 14:40									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Starlifter I think this is Brian/Sid's logic: If you reach communism, but your civ does not have gunpowder, then why should your civ's captured cities produce Gunpowder partisans? How can your people become equipped and trained (assuming normal flow of research) to deploy a tach that your civ has no knowledge of yet?

I think it's hard to second guess the logic of Brian and Sid in this fashion. After all their tech tree allows the production of Ironclads when you have no knowledge about Iron Working

Nice work finding the link between Gunpowder and Communism for Partisans. Do you test your results in 2.42 or MGE.

----------------------

SG(2)

	29-06-2002 16:48									#48
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by debeest May I suggest a post that summarizes this (pretty much as you've already done) for a GL link?

I am sceptical about the GL+SGs combination. I think somebody else should care of links updating. The GL index could be divided into 2 posts, the general info would remain in the SGs 1st post, links would be moved to the new one...

quote: Originally posted by starlifter Good job, Th & St!

... & Sl! I would miss the gunpowder without your posts.

quote: Originally posted by GP Well...I appreciate your establishing the definitve relationship...but still feel vindicated in our earlier disagreement.

I agree with you. Usually you have the gunpowder when you reach commie.

quote: Originally posted by starlifter I am not familiar with the cases or examples of how/when using Cheat Mode affects gameplay (beyond the obvious direct effects). Is there a link to it? To my knowledge, a tech is a tech.... if you got it, it has its effect.... no matter if it was stolen, traded, researched, edited with Cheat Mode.

Some things trigger at oedo years or turn beginnings. For example I had a big problems when I investigated the amount of the gold plunder (it is related to the amount of defender's gold in the beginning of the turn). I think this is a reason why SGs feel sceptical with the cheat mode.
But I think the way how you obtain a game position (by cheat mode or not) is irrelevant. Otherwise - what would happen if you save and reload? I don't think the way of tech acquirement is stored in the .sav file.

quote: Originally posted by SG(2) Do you test your results in 2.42 or MGE.

i suppose you speak to starlifter...

	29-06-2002 16:49									#49
	The result overview Increase Your PM Length

I have run tests with attacker's Gue. I had to rebuild the formula, because the logic is lost:
In general attacker's Gue lowers the number of partisans. But in reverse it allows partisans to appear from cities of level 1 when defender has Gue only!

	29-06-2002 19:08									#50
	Put an end to popups!

Does RoundDown mean that 3.75 -> 3 or just that 3.5 -> 3. And what is the correct term for each concept?

	29-06-2002 20:34									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

RoundDown means both, but only 3.5 will occur in the formula.

quote: Originally posted by GP And what is the correct term for each concept?

What concept?

	29-06-2002 21:17									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

On concept is to take the whole number minus what ever digital excess (so 3.0 to 3.999999 is equal to 3). Another is to round to nearest integer. But "round down" would mean to round all Int.5's to Int. "Round up" would mean round Int.5 to Int+1.

	29-06-2002 21:20									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Oh...and you have a division by 8 in your city level thingie no? surely that means you can have other than Int and Int.5?

P.s. you never responded to my gibe about Eastern Europe...

	29-06-2002 22:28									#54
	Suffering from ads?

GP, don't you head to Deity? Your posts are always very short...

quote: Oh...and you have a division by 8 in your city level thingie no?

Yes, I missed this. Anyway RoundDown is Trunc, i.e. RoundDown(3.99) = 3

quote: P.s. you never responded to my gibe about Eastern Europe...

And I won't respond till you will post a link to that gibe. Sorry, I missed it.

	30-06-2002 07:11									#55
	Get a bigger avatar today!

It's not funny anymore... It was in the other partisan thread. I think you saw it and are being cruel by removing my chance for humor at your expense...

	30-06-2002 12:00									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

GP, I didn't want to be bad to you. A humor at my expense is always welcomed. Try again.

	30-06-2002 14:24									#57
	Remove this text

There was a mistake in the formula: missing CityLevel at GovtModifier. The formula is changed a little. I also edited the notes.

Last edited by SlowThinker on 30-06-2002 at 14:32

	30-06-2002 19:42									#58
	Tired of ads?

wrt the working city radius. Do you mean that if the square is unexplored it can't have a partisan...or can't be worked?

	30-06-2002 20:18									#59
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I mean 20 squares around the city. But I may be wrong - I don't know if unexplored squares pop up partisans. Could you test it?

	01-07-2002 01:03									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I don't have civ anymore. I just post in the on topic to get post counts. (I mean to contribute to the community...since that is the reason for driving off topicers out in to the on topic...)