18-09-2001 22:56									#1
	Wishlist: which Wonders should be included? Increase the size of your Attachments

When I was thinking of the Wonders of the World in Civ2, I realized there are many huge buildings around the world which are not in the game right now and probably should be added. This thread is meant for those who would like to propose a famous monument to be included in Civ3. Please don't mention your local church, your garage, your own house (Well, unless you live in the Buckingham Palace ) and so on. For a start I've made a small list of good Wonders:

The Tai Mahal;
The Opera of Sydney;
Mount Rushmore;
The Notre Dame, Paris;
The Kremlin;
The Acropolis, Athens

	18-09-2001 22:59									#2
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Nice buildings to be sure, but i don't know that they all should be wonders. I mean, I've seen some pretty cool Taco Bells, but most of them aren't good enough to be wonders...

	18-09-2001 23:27									#3
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Firaxis better already have decided what Wonders they are using or I will get even more concerned over what they have accomplished. No time to add even more wonders that are of less importance. All it would do is add CtP style sleaze.

	18-09-2001 23:37									#4
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Of course they know which wonders are in, otherwise i don't think they would have given the number of 12 major wonders, 24 small wonders.

	18-09-2001 23:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by isaac brock Of course they know which wonders are in, otherwise i don't think they would have given the number of 12 major wonders, 24 small wonders.

we fanatics know it all. good point.

	18-09-2001 23:58									#6
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What an excellent post! I think that post is so accurate it should be a news item!

	19-09-2001 00:10									#7
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Wonder I would like:-

The Channel Tunnel
The trans-Siberian railway
Stonehenge
The Berlin Wall

and something that is modern Japanese.

	19-09-2001 02:19									#8
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There are so many wonders that could be made. In real life, they aren't the top seven things, though.

What about the CP (Canadian-Pacific) railway? Grants railway access between all cities on the continent? Can you think of a wonder that would have a stupider effect?

Then again, I don't think the Statue of Liberty is much of a wonder. I wonder at it's effect, too. The statue of liberty enables Monarchy (to weird civs who trade for democracy before getting Monarchy)? It usually just grants Communism and Fanatacism too, which, correct me if I'm wrong, is basically against everything the lady stands for (actually, Communism being unliberty-like is just and American perception, but still).

So, what do we replace it with? The heads on Easter Island, which somehow bestow culture upon all your cities? Or in Manhattan project vein, the Philadelphia experiment - destroys one of your ships and makes it reappear years later in foreign waters with crewmen who claim that it's just days after they departed...

Nah, a lot of the wonders are already stretches. Don't add more stretches (although, if they can think of GOOD effects, that might be different).

I in no way expect or want this, but might it be neat if each civ had different names for the same wonders? King Richard's Crusade = Saladin's war?

	19-09-2001 09:39									#9
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Some more wonders I can think about right now:
Eiffel Tower
Hagia Sophia - http://www.fullcirc.com/family/turk...sophia/soph.htm
Monastery in Czestochowa (my local favorite) - http://www.jasnagora.pl/english/

	19-09-2001 17:11									#10
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quote: Originally posted by tniem Firaxis better already have decided what Wonders they are using or I will get even more concerned over what they have accomplished. No time to add even more wonders that are of less importance. All it would do is add CtP style sleaze.

Civ2 had several expansion packs. I think new Wonders for Civ3 could be added even after the release.

quote: Originally posted by red_jon Wonder I would like:- The Channel Tunnel The trans-Siberian railway Stonehenge The Berlin Wall and something that is modern Japanese.

Adding The Berlin Wall is a great idea, because this is indeed one of the most important buildings in the recent history. If you would like a modern Japanese building, you should try to find a very famous one first, otherwise I'm not sure wether it deserves to be a wonder.

quote: Originally posted by Your.Master I in no way expect or want this, but might it be neat if each civ had different names for the same wonders? King Richard's Crusade = Saladin's war?

What should be the Roman name for Cure for Cancer? How would the Egyptians call the SETI Project? I don't think this is going to work.

	19-09-2001 18:03									#11
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Le Louvre!!!


It got a big influence at its time. Lots of countries tried to copy it after. It is a marvel that cost tremendous amounts. I don't think many buildings cost that much per square meter also, thus it is very wealthy. I just wonder why it isn't in...

	19-09-2001 21:35									#12
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i was thinking 12 grand wonders isnt enough cos the ones fom civ2 wet enough but then i remembered their constcutions is slowed and the minor ones are still quite individual, 'cos you stop the AI getting the prequisttites like 5 iron for iron works, just hog it!

	19-09-2001 22:27									#13
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If the Statue of Liberty is a wonder, then it should probably provide a big culture boost to the city it is built in to simulate the influx of immigration associated with it ( "...your tired, your poor... etc" ), something like 50% culture bonus to culture producing improvements.

	19-09-2001 22:59									#14
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I think the idea of wonders was to use things that are unique and symbolic of a particular culture/civilization. There is only one Statue of Liberty (ok, forget the prototype one in Paris), and everyone knows it is American. Likewise, the Great Wall is indisputably Chinese and the Pyramid at Cheops is Egyptian. The point of building a wonder should be to create something emblematic of your nation. I think there is a lot of room for improvement, but I don't know about adding more wonders. They are, after all, Wonders!

Stonehenge could be an early wonder, but then again...doesn't it predate civilization? Same with the Easter Island heads.

I think, by and large, the civ team has the wonders pretty well covered. The Chunnel is a possibility, but what would it do? Perhaps enable one land unit per turn to cross a body of water that was a certain number of tiles wide (like 3?). Or connect two cities on different continents with an airdrop like function, perhaps (which would require working in a way to select the receiving city of the chunnel, which would be a civ first...2 cities sharing a wonder!).

I think the Empire State Building should be considered, too. It was the first super-sky scraper of its kind and opened the era of 100-story plus tall buildings.

BG

	19-09-2001 23:57									#15
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The Eisenhower Tunnel through the continental Divide.

Or for that matter the Interstate/Autobahn systems

	20-09-2001 00:37									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I think the Empire State Building should be considered, too. It was the first super-sky scraper of its kind and opened the era of 100-story plus tall buildings. BG

Nooooooooooooooo.

The ESB is not that much bigger than the chrysler (sp?) building, certainly not enough to be considered a wonder. Wonders are supposed to last for centuries, but the ESB has been dwarfed by many buildings, much less than 1 century after it was built.

I made a thread on the Channel Tunnel, suggesting it should connect 2 continents in a similar way that the Grand Canal will connect 2 oceans.

	20-09-2001 05:34									#17
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quote: The ESB is not that much bigger than the chrysler (sp?) building, certainly not enough to be considered a wonder. Wonders are supposed to last for centuries, but the ESB has been dwarfed by many buildings, much less than 1 century after it was built.

Not quite. I consider myself somewhat of an expert on this subject, since I worked across the street from both (and currently do so from the ESB). The ESB is much, much bigger than the Chrysler Building in both height and girth. Just ride the N train into Manhattan from Queens one day and you will see.

But the size isn't the issue. It's the significance. The ESB was the first of its kind, a 100 story building. While others have been built bigger, none are more famous. The ESB is what most people think of first when they think of skyscrapers (ok, now after 9-11-01, that may change...). The technological feat of building it was, at the time, quite amazing. It's certainly one of Americas most amazing buildings!

How exactly will the grand canal work? Anyone know?

Cheers.

	20-09-2001 09:10									#18
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Um, all of them?

Is this a trick question?

[in reference to topic]

But, the ESB is definately a wonder of the modern world. It was a revolutionary building in terms of size and manufacturing methods.

I mean, come on- don't you watch the Learning Channel?

	20-09-2001 09:26									#19
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IMO Statue of Liberty does not qualify as a wonder of anykind . She is but a big chick that came from France as a gift. If it is a wonder, then I'm gonna make Firaxis repent . I'd rather see Mount Rushmore or Yellowstone as a wonder - because they are.

There is also another wonder name that makes me wonder. It's the Apollo program. Why that, Apollo-rockets weren't the first in space, not even close. Maybe the Americans don't like to remember, that they lost the race to space

	20-09-2001 09:58									#20
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I agree- 'Space Program' would be more generic, and this name would encompass the whole of the early space initiative, insteading of pointing to just the Americans (no, not Canada or Mexico, or the whole of that 'other' continent down south that we shall not name here).

	20-09-2001 14:18									#21
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The statue of Liberty should defently be in, but a wonder that is

	20-09-2001 16:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo There is also another wonder name that makes me wonder. It's the Apollo program. Why that, Apollo-rockets weren't the first in space, not even close. Maybe the Americans don't like to remember, that they lost the race to space

Probably the same reason Magellan's Expedition was a wonder and not Columbus' Voyage, which is a good analogy for this situation. Columbus is generally viewed as the first European to set foot on the New World, but Magellan's Expedition went further, going around the world. Civilization seems to reward "most" not "first."

It's like in baseball when Babe Ruth was the first to hit 60 home runs in a season, but now four people have done it, three since Ruth and now Ruth's mark isn't regarded with as much awe as it used to be. Now McGwire's record is regarded as the "great achievement" to shoot for.

	20-09-2001 16:47									#23
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We already know many wonders that are in the game: see this thread.

However, for what it's worth, here are a few suggestions with regard to buildings (there are lots of ideas for non-building wonders as well):

Angkor Wat = temple in each city
Camelot = reduces cost of mounted units
Stonehenge = city squares +1 of everything
Kinderdike Mills = mill in each city
Hermitage = increases cultural influence
Sydney Opera House = copy of Shake's
Disneyworld = holiday resort in each city
Biosphere 2 = mining colony to each spaceport

	20-09-2001 17:02									#24
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon The ESB is not that much bigger than the chrysler (sp?) building, certainly not enough to be considered a wonder. Wonders are supposed to last for centuries, but the ESB has been dwarfed by many buildings, much less than 1 century after it was built.

The Chrysler Building may be older, but it isn't as famous as the ESB. I think I'd choose the ESB.

quote: Originally posted by Trifna Le Louvre!!! It got a big influence at its time. Lots of countries tried to copy it after. It is a marvel that cost tremendous amounts. I don't think many buildings cost that much per square meter also, thus it is very wealthy. I just wonder why it isn't in...

The Louvre is definitely one of the most famous museums around the world. Another building in Paris (near Paris, actually) which was copied many times is the Palace of Versailles. The cities of St. Petersburg and Washington are based on it's map. It was also copied in Germany, Austria and many other European countries. I think it simply deserves to be a Wonder.

quote: Originally posted by aaglo IMO Statue of Liberty does not qualify as a wonder of anykind

I agree the Statue of Liberty isn't as American as many people think. However, it still is an important symbol of the revolutionary period at the end of the 18th century.

quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Angkor Wat = temple in each city Camelot = reduces cost of mounted units Stonehenge = city squares +1 of everything Kinderdike Mills = mill in each city Hermitage = increases cultural influence Sydney Opera House = copy of Shake's Disneyworld = holiday resort in each city Biosphere 2 = mining colony to each spaceport

I really like the idea of adding the Kinderdike Mills (After all, I'm Dutch myself ) but I'm not sure they are really known outside the Netherlands... I guess you're Dutch, because I never heard a foreigner about it at all.

	20-09-2001 17:04									#25
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo IMO Statue of Liberty does not qualify as a wonder of anykind . She is but a big chick that came from France as a gift. If it is a wonder, then I'm gonna make Firaxis repent . I'd rather see Mount Rushmore or Yellowstone as a wonder - because they are. There is also another wonder name that makes me wonder. It's the Apollo program. Why that, Apollo-rockets weren't the first in space, not even close. Maybe the Americans don't like to remember, that they lost the race to space

Oh come on, you will not do a darn thing to Firaxis over the statue.

Yellowstone isn't a man-made wonder, so it wouldn't really amke sense that you could build it...

Mount Rushmore means nothing to me. It's just damage to the local environment. If you want impressive carvings, Abu-simbel is much more awe-inspiring, especially considering the relative technologies.

Cheers.

	20-09-2001 19:14									#26
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Here are my suggestions from the Americas:

Chitchen Itza (Mexico)- Doubles the effect of Temples
Machu Picchu(Peru)- Halve the cost of building fortresses
Cristo Redentor (Brasil)- Couble the effect of churches
Temple of Sun and Moon(Mexico)- 5 gold tribute from each civ

	21-09-2001 10:03									#27
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A wonder is supposed to be an engineering, cultural or construction marvel, not a city or an overgrown blue woman on an orange base (Statue of Liberty) wich was given to America by France to make relations between the 2 better.

The pyramids are perhaps the greatest wonders of them all. They were built all over the world. In Giza, they mapped out the positioning of Orions Belt and the Great Pyramid was the tallest building in the world before the Eiffel Tower was constructed.

I hadn't heard of Mount Rushmore before Sam and Max Hit the Road where you bungee-jumped out of their noses on a green rope and collected tar at the bottom in a Stuckey-U's cup.

The Empire State Building definately doesn't count as a wonder. Sure, it opened the door to much bigger, impressive and expensive buildings, but it was exceeded way to quickly.

	21-09-2001 10:51									#28
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dp

	21-09-2001 10:52									#29
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quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV Biosphere 2 = mining colony to each spaceport

Biosphere 2? How much glue did you sniff today? The copper lady in NY harbor is WAAYY more deserving of Wonder status then Biosphere2.

Let's build a giant greenhouse, dress people up in spacesuits for a few photo-ops, within months get exposed as a scientific bust (maybe fraud?) and then turn it into a tourist trap and make a huge profit off of morons who just left the Largest Ball of Twine up the road.

Oh yeah, and there are no spaceports in Civ3. Thank God. Sci-fi should be kept out of Civ games, just look at the CtP series.

	21-09-2001 15:15									#30
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The Atlantic Cable

I suggested Stonehenge a while back, but it is already in this thread, and I don't know whoever find the idea first.