21-09-2001 20:30									#1
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HAHHAHAHA SUCKERS.

the images arent even uploaded yet

Attack Defense Move
Standard Warrior 1 1 1
Aztec Jaguar Warrior 1 1 2

wonder what the impi is

	21-09-2001 20:32									#2
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quote: This week, we feature the Aztecs. It's hard to argue with a group of people who consider themselves "the chosen people of the war god Huitzilopochtli." For one thing, you probably couldn't even pronounce Huitzilopochtli.

	21-09-2001 20:50									#3
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They will have their UU from the beginning, golden age starts 3500 BC.

	21-09-2001 20:50									#4
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How about Montezuma in that suit?

	21-09-2001 20:52									#5
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Hahahaha, their special unit really sucks
The only advantages it has is that you can build it immediately and it doesn't cost any resources.
Compare that to the Greek Hoplite, or the Chinese Rider

	21-09-2001 21:04									#6
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Hm, sounds as if it is not easy to trigger an Aztec golden age with an attack1 unit...

	21-09-2001 21:07									#7
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Well, it'll be probably be very cheap.

And from what I know, the Impi will be 1/2/2... Much better than the Jaguar Warriors, but will cost resources and more expensive.

	21-09-2001 21:36									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Kyller How about Montezuma in that suit?

The best modern suit for M. would probably be a guerilla uniform, Subcommandante Marcos style.

I agree with those who pointed out that Actecs will have their golden age far too early, and Jaguars are pretty useless. Who would want to play Actecs with that UU?

	21-09-2001 22:13									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune The best modern suit for M. would probably be a guerilla uniform, Subcommandante Marcos style. I agree with those who pointed out that Actecs will have their golden age far too early, and Jaguars are pretty useless. Who would want to play Actecs with that UU?

Let me turn that question around. What civ/UU would you rather have then? UU are there only to give you and the other civs an extra boost temporarily, if they give you a comparative advantage. You make it sound like you have no idea of how an extraordinarily cheap unit at the beginning of game can be used for tremendous benefit strategically. While I think UU are in the game primarily for fun, they can be used to your advantage...if they come at the right time depending on your situation in the game. For me personally, I think all of this talk about civ attributes and unique units is nonsense and probably something some of us will do without when playing Civ3.

	21-09-2001 22:54									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark Let me turn that question around. What civ/UU would you rather have then? UU are there only to give you and the other civs an extra boost temporarily, if they give you a comparative advantage. You make it sound like you have no idea of how an extraordinarily cheap unit at the beginning of game can be used for tremendous benefit strategically. While I think UU are in the game primarily for fun, they can be used to your advantage...if they come at the right time depending on your situation in the game. For me personally, I think all of this talk about civ attributes and unique units is nonsense and probably something some of us will do without when playing Civ3.

May I suggest you didnīt understand my post. First of all, Actecs should have their golden age somewhere around 1400 AD, not 3000 BC. Second, who said Jaguars will be less expensive than normal warriors? They are just faster, which is a scouting only advantage. Tremendous benefit?
They are practically guaranteed to be the worst UU in the game (except Firaxis has a really ingenious brainwave about how to create an even more useless UU).

	21-09-2001 22:59									#11
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Even if they're cheap to build, Jaguar warriors aren't a great deal when compared to say, Chinese riders. And we don't even know what the real advantages of the Panzer will be...

Of course, it is too soon for this, but I'm going to guess that the Aztecs are in disadvantage in the game...

	21-09-2001 23:03									#12
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Why in the world do you say that the Aztecs should have their golden age around 1400ad?!?!?! I (or the AI) can build 3 JW in about 12 turns after the first city is founded, can they not? I go find the nearest civ (assuming it's on a small map) and possibly take out their city (and perhaps trigger the Golden Age in the process). Or are you one of those type that thinks stuff in Civ3 should fall in line historically?

	21-09-2001 23:04									#13
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Bah! I don't really care about who has the weakest or strongest UU. Right now, I'm thinking of playing as the Aztecs in my 1st game just for a challenge, if that is indeed what it is. Having a weak UU isn't THAT big of a disadvantage..

	21-09-2001 23:07									#14
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Well, consider that the Aztecs will be getting their golden age at the beginning of the game. If this is the case, then they will probably get their great leader at the beginning of the game and form those jaguar warriors.

Also keep in mind we don't know how combat works...if an extra movement point gives a bit of extra attack or something (due to maneuverability), they may be better than you think.

	21-09-2001 23:15									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Mahdimael Also keep in mind we don't know how combat works...if an extra movement point gives a bit of extra attack or something (due to maneuverability), they may be better than you think.

A-ha! So if, what if, for example, units with a higher movement rating could retreat from combat against units with a lower movement rating if they are losing? That might be an interesting twist...


Dan

	21-09-2001 23:20									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS A-ha! So if, what if, for example, units with a higher movement rating could retreat from combat against units with a lower movement rating if they are losing? That might be an interesting twist... Dan

Hmm, is this info, or is it just Dan joking?
I hope it is a fun way for Dan to "tell" us about the combat without breaking the Firaxis rules.

	21-09-2001 23:24									#17
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Everybody who played SMAC, knows Dan is right. A little more movement is very powerful.

	21-09-2001 23:30									#18
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Just use the example of horse (or any 2 movement unit) attacking a city one tile away on a river. It uses 1/3 to move next to the city, it attacks and defeats a standard warrior and still have 2/3 movements left (if it didn't hurt too badly) to back away from the city (or to conquer it).

	21-09-2001 23:35									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark Why in the world do you say that the Aztecs should have their golden age around 1400ad?!?!?! I (or the AI) can build 3 JW in about 12 turns after the first city is founded, can they not?

This is precisely what I mean. Thatīs is why they are ahistorical. Romans donīt get their Legion in the stone age. Neither do they get it in 1950 AD; they get it (approximately) when they historically should. Not so for Actecs. Actecs should be strong sometime between 1000 and 1500 AD, not in the Stone Age. What is so hard to understand about that?

	21-09-2001 23:41									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark Just use the example of horse (or any 2 movement unit) attacking a city one tile away on a river. It uses 1/3 to move next to the city, it attacks and defeats a standard warrior and still have 2/3 movements left (if it didn't hurt too badly) to back away from the city (or to conquer it).

You could, of course, also build a road to your enemy city, then use the same advantage.
And they might also have a bonus in retreating.
I donīt see why anybody should prefer Elephants.

	21-09-2001 23:42									#21
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this might be very unique to only my own games...


but often when I play I see enemy cities (w/o any units in it), and I want to conquer it desperatly.... yet its still 3000 BC and all I have is this slow slow slow warrior! By the time I get there, the AI rush buys a phalanx or something.

What about barbarian leaders. You can always rush build a chariot or horseman (both expensive early on... $$ better spent on granary for example) to catch the leader I guess... With the jaguar, it wouldn't be much of a problem.

I don't know, but having a warrior with movement of 2 right off the bat == more huts, more of the map explored (for city planning) and more chances at conquering nearby cities.

Some might think the aztec UU makes that civ weak, I think the Aztec's UU gives that civ a clear advantage over everyone else at the begining of the game.

	22-09-2001 00:03									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune they get it (approximately) when they historically should.

Absolutely not! The goal of the game is to win (and have fun doing it). Again, why would you want to limit the game to its approximate history?!? Don't you think that it would be way too predictable (and therefore, un-replayable) in that sense? I have built just one city and launched a spaceship about 1800ad from that one city. According to your example, I needed to wait until the 20th century to at least research the appropriate techs since anything else would be ahistorical. Why am I sitting here arguing with this person? Get a clue, Civ is and should be ahistorical, that's the whole point. You imply that the Aztecs shouldn't be in the world until 1300ad, so no one can even choose them to play or as an AI civ. I'll tell you what. We'll do a comparison game. You play the Aztecs but you must wait until 1300ad to build a JW. In the meantime, I'll play the Aztecs and I'll have tanks rolling through the world by 1300ad.

	22-09-2001 00:08									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark I'll tell you what. We'll do a comparison game. You play the Aztecs but you must wait until 1300ad to build a JW. In the meantime, I'll play the Aztecs and I'll have tanks rolling through the world by 1300ad.

I give up on this thread. You obviously lack the basic capacity to understand what I say.

	22-09-2001 00:21									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Tventano Everybody who played SMAC, knows Dan is right. A little more movement is very powerful.

Yes, but is the thing about retreating from combat true?
IIRC there were rumors on it a while back, but we haven't heard anything official (until now) that attacking units should stop fighting if they were going to lose and retreat. If that only applies when one unit is faster then the other I understand it.
I hope that was what Dan was speaking about.

	22-09-2001 00:23									#25
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I hope the extra movement point does make a big difference, but honestly I doubt even with increased maneuverability that it will be able to conted with other UUs. Why couldn't they give it an extra attack as well? They WERE fierce warriors...

	22-09-2001 00:23									#26
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quote: You could, of course, also build a road to your enemy city, then use the same advantage.

Check out this thread.

Apparently you cannot gain any benefits from roads in another civs territory, unless you have a Right of Passage with them.

	22-09-2001 00:31									#27
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I don't know about you, but when I get my unique unit, I want to roll over my enemies. I don't want to run away if I'm losing the battle. I want to win the battle. So you won't see me playing as the Aztecs very often. Their only advantage, in my opinion, is that they will probably be the first civ to get their Golden Age. That is a good advantage, but I'd rather wait for a Panzer. Roll over 'em!

	22-09-2001 00:31									#28
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Gramphos -

The way it worked in SMAC was:

If a unit with high movement was attacked by a unit with lower movement and started losing, it could retreat one tile and suffer only partial damage instead of being destroyed. Dan is referring to what sounds exactly like this.

	22-09-2001 00:36									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Kyller Gramphos - The way it worked in SMAC was: If a unit with high movement was attacked by a unit with lower movement and started losing, it could retreat one tile and suffer only partial damage instead of being destroyed. Dan is referring to what sounds exactly like this.

Might be, I've not played SMAC (more then a short time testing it by a friend. I didn't like all the dark graphics, so I stayed to Civ.)

	22-09-2001 00:37									#30
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Just because one gets a unique unit, that does NOT mean that it is a superior unit. If you are really behind, a JW or a Panzer really won't mean squat.

Did anyone else interpret Tribune's posts as wanting units to be more in their historical context? I believe the whole point about Civ is to be as ahistorical as possible.