09-10-2001 10:21									#31
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The more aspects we get, the more convinced
I get about the question of two different scenarios
for Europe and the Pacific. It's the logical way to
bring WWII into Civ III, without destroying the
historical aspects (like having to leave Poland or
Czechoslovakia outside).

	12-10-2001 04:39									#32
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I'm sure the shipping WWII scenario will be decent.

	12-10-2001 06:10									#33
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mmmhhh. i love playing the ww2 scenario as the Spanish or the Turks, and wh00ping the Nazis.

	12-10-2001 07:10									#34
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you could argue that the war started when japan invaded china back in the mid 1930's. something like 1936. (not that i'm advocating that. it would start off extremely boring)

	12-10-2001 08:35									#35
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Well, to my surprise, I returned to the Apolyton forum to see that people are actually posting in my thread! Glory be!

So -

World Powers:

United States and Territories (Americans)
British Commonwealth (English)
France (French)
Germany (Germans)
Soviet Union (Russians)
China (Chinese)
Japan (Japanese)
Italy (Romans)

Other Entities:
Fascist Spain (Greeks)
India (Indians)
Poland (Egyptians?)
'Neutrals' (Zulus) - functions as a territory holder till nabbed by a power
Finland (Iroquois)
Norway (Aztecs)
Turkey (Babylonians)
Arabs (Persians)

Or perhaps a civ of "Not-so Neutrals" including militants around the world. Let's not forget the Irish fascists with their Eamon DeValera! What if he came to power during WWII? Could there have been a Berlin-Rome-Tokyo-Madrid-Dublin Axis!

	12-10-2001 20:00									#36
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Shouldn't India be part of the British commonwealth?

	12-10-2001 21:16									#37
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For playability, I'd seperate it differently

1. Axis - (Include Italy, Germany, and Austria-Hungary)
2. Allies - US, Britain, Canada, Australia (Forces were mixed sometimes anyways)
3. France
4. Soviet Union
5. Japan (seperate from Axis due to distance)
6. China
7. Serbia (Yugoslavia was not a neutral nation)
8. Croatia (Sided with Nazis)
9. Turkey
10. South America (Neutral)
11. Arab (Middle East)
12. Neutrals (territory holder)
13. Spain
14. Finland
15. Norway
16. India

I know it's tempting to seperate Britain from US, but for the purpose of gameplay, I think the player should be allowed to control both forces. I didn't include the original Civ in paranthesis because it is irrelevant which colors you choose to use.

Many people don't hear about the Serbians vs Croatians because the British left the Serbian Chetniks out to dry. The Serbian guerilla forces kept the Nazis from controlling the entire Balkan Peninsula. This is very signification because it prevented the Nazis from spreading into the Middle East.

It would be interesting to play as Serbia and use guerillas to take over areas in the Balkans. The game should end with one of the following events happening for each playable Nation.

1. Allies (defeat Nazis and Japan), maybe Soviets if you want to get greedy

2. Soviets (defeat Nazis), maybe Japan and Allies if you want to get greedy

3. Nazis (defeat Allies and Soviets), or conquer world if you want to get greedy

4. Japan (defeat Allies and China), or conquer world if you want to get greedy

5. Serbia (defeat Nazis)

6. Croatia (defeat Serbia)

7. China (defeat Japan)

Conquering the world with Serbia, Croatia, and China would take forever and would be stupid. I think that it would be an interesting twist to play as 5-7 and watch the big AI's take each other out. Of course, I'm probably going to make my own scenario anyways. This setup would just allow for different POV's and wouldn't just be the monatenous "kill everyone".

	12-10-2001 23:38									#38
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Short Comment:
The empire of Austria Hungary ended when it looses WW I. But I think a WWI scenario is also a good idea.

	13-10-2001 00:03									#39
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Congratulation guys!
I understand you do not like Poland.
A lot of problems since 200 years...
Poll affair...
However, excluding Poland from WWII...
For me it's just ridiculous...
Norway, Portugal, Croatia, Switzerland, yes they are indded worth more to be included than a country where all the brawl began.
Poland:
- lost 6 million citizens during WWII (the highest rate per capita),
- deployed 1 millino army in 1939, however was abandoned by allies.
- Polish troops faught in all fronts of the war including Narvik, France '40, Tobruk, Italy (Monte Cassino), D-Day, and Market-Garden operations
- Polish fighters shot down more than 10% German planes during Battle of Britain.
- Overall war effort was bigger than French one!

	13-10-2001 00:17									#40
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quote: deployed 1 millino army in 1939, however was abandoned by allies.

There is such a thing as real politik. What could have been done. Do you jump into a burning building to save someone, knowing that in all likelyhood doing so would kill you both?

No offence, wish we could have done more, but in reality what more could we have done?

	13-10-2001 00:57									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch quote: deployed 1 millino army in 1939, however was abandoned by allies. There is such a thing as real politik. What could have been done. Do you jump into a burning building to save someone, knowing that in all likelyhood doing so would kill you both? No offence, wish we could have done more, but in reality what more could we have done?

Just enter Germany
I am tired to argue on another forum :
http://www.europa-universalis.com/f...&threadid=15670

	13-10-2001 02:58									#42
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quote: Originally posted by pithorr Just enter Germany

Jeez, why didn't I think of that?

We should have just waltzed into Russia in August '45 aswell I guess?

	13-10-2001 12:18									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Jeez, why didn't I think of that? We should have just waltzed into Russia in August '45 aswell I guess?

No, you needn't. I realise it was not possible.
However, it is quite another problem.
In Sept 1939 France & UK were able to help Poland...
And promised in such treaties:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/w...book/blbk19.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/w...llow/ylbka1.htm

	13-10-2001 23:36									#44
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An then there's ANOTHER Polish issue. Currently, Poland is comprised thus:

1/2 Old Polish Territory
1/2 Prussia

I'm wondering, why can't the Russians give back their part (Heaven know they've got enough land) and give Prussia back to Germany?

I know it was wrong for Hitler to invade in '39, but Poland still had German territory even then - Danzig, Pomeravia, Posen, Silesia and so on.

	14-10-2001 05:17									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 An then there's ANOTHER Polish issue. Currently, Poland is comprised thus: 1/2 Old Polish Territory 1/2 Prussia I'm wondering, why can't the Russians give back their part (Heaven know they've got enough land) and give Prussia back to Germany? I know it was wrong for Hitler to invade in '39, but Poland still had German territory even then - Danzig, Pomeravia, Posen, Silesia and so on.

I am tired of arguing with these damn nazi Germans. Hitler died along time ago

1. Prussia Never belonged to germany.Most of Prussia was composed of Poland and Lithuania. Prussia was first settled by Balts and Slavs(Russians are slavs) Polish King Invited the Germans to Prussia (the Kallingrad region). Then Prussia just took, but it was beaten at grunwald. And became split and Krolewiec(what was konigsberg, Present parts of Kalliningrad) became a part of Poland for a short time.And 90% of prussia 1914 was the 1795 Partiton of Poland.

2. Poland is composed of 100% Former Polish Lands of the 998-1100 Border of Poland

3. Prussia is Extinct. If you want Prussia go gets Kants grave its the only thing left other then that its all USSR/Russia(You cant find 1 german building and they are just rebuilding the church and making it Orthodox).It will stay russia, It will be a cold day in hell if the germans ever get Kaliningrad.

4.Gdansk not danzig. It was founded by poles and polish since 1400s-1795 then part of Napoleons Grand Duchy of Warsaw. Renamed to danzig in 1815.Renamed to Gdansk 1945.

5.Pomerania- Founded and settled by Slavs even in 1945 it was 10% polish.

6.Poznan not Posen. Founded by Poles and Polish from 998-1795 and was near polands first capital.

7.Selisa never part of germany it was either Poland,Bohemia,Hungary or Austria.

	14-10-2001 05:21									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 I'm wondering, why can't the Russians give back their part (Heaven know they've got enough land) and give Prussia back to Germany?

Won't happen, man.

	14-10-2001 05:29									#47
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Why do you guys keep putting India as a seperate civ in a WW2 scenario? It was a British colony at that time, right?
Maybe they had some sort of home rule? Please explain

	14-10-2001 10:15									#48
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The threat of revolt was constantly around. In the 1st WW, India exported hundreds of thousands of troops to French trenches, but in the 2nd WW it couldn't (or wouldn't) even protect its own borders against the Japanese. British Asia had to be defended with British troops.

If the Indians are included as part of the UK (as I suppose they should be), then there has to be a great deal of effort put into assuring that India won't be able to provide the British war effort with masses of troops.

	14-10-2001 23:45									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Jer8m8 Just a random comment, don't make Brazil neutral. They were an ally and played some part in the war

Another side note: I think that many of the countries that many people have lumped into the "neutral" category, were far from it. Argentina for example shouldn't really be lumped in with the rest of Latin America during WWII. (If anything they should probably be lumped in with the British Empire) On the other hand it's not realistic for you to create individual nations for countires who weren't "key players" in the war.

	15-10-2001 00:20									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 I know it was wrong for Hitler to invade in '39, but Poland still had German territory even then - Danzig, Pomeravia, Posen, Silesia and so on.

You have forgotten Warschau, Krakau und Auschwitz

	15-10-2001 13:20									#51
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Alexander01: you should find a better textbook. Where did you study, in some kind of Nazi school?

To all using names like Posen, Krakau, Warschau: WE USE ENGLISH HERE, OK??!!! You want use these names, find yourself a German or Nazi sort of forum, if it suits you. Please use Poznan, Cracow, Warsaw, etc.

To all Germans: above comments are not general, and I do not intend to offend any of Germans here.

BTW I've got lots of friends in your country.

	15-10-2001 18:41									#52
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To Staszek:

For one thing, "Poznan" isn't English. Polish. Also, I only knew it by its German name, "Posen." And I wasn't the one using Warschau and Krakau, try Lepperson.

Be careful before you go slinging the term "Nazi" at any German who happens to cross your path. It is a very serious and cruel thing to say to a person.

In regards to my schooling, it was very moderate, and AMERICAN.

I'm all for having a decent Poland, I just don't see why Russia got to keep its half, while German lost even more territory to them.

To Bogi:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Silesia was at one point part of Germany. In the 18th Century, Prussian King Frederick the Great annexed it from Austria. It was then present in German territory until after the First World War, when it was divided. Germany once again controlled during the dreadful Second World War, but afterwards it was lost to Germany again.

To whom it may concern:

If you guys want to go back as early as the 900s-1100s to prove the right of the Poles, I could just go back to the 200s BC, when Germanic tribes filtered into Europe from central Asia.

I could say that since the Germanic tribes hit Europe before the Slavs, that it should all be theirs. But I won't. I for one think we can all coexist peacefully. I mean no harm to anyone, I only ask questions.

If we go back to distant ages past to prove points, everything only gets muddled. By this rationale, Europe should belong to Celts, Etruscans and Greeks.

	15-10-2001 19:10									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander01 To Staszek: To whom it may concern: If you guys want to go back as early as the 900s-1100s to prove the right of the Poles, I could just go back to the 200s BC, when Germanic tribes filtered into Europe from central Asia. .

Yes and they were all Blue Eyed and had Blond Hair.They came from Tibet too.Sieg heil Alaxander


How would you like me to start calling the capital of germany brenen(acient slavic name)


In regards to Selisla(slask)
Taken form Britannica Encyclopedia

Polish Slask , Czech Slezsko , German Schlesien historic region that is now in southwestern Poland. Silesia was originally a Polish province that became a possession of the Bohemian crown in 1335, passed with that crown to the Austrian Habsburgs in 1526, was taken by Prussia in 1742, and was returned to Poland in 1945. Silesia consists largely of the basin of the upper and middle Odra River, which flows from southeast to northwest

	16-10-2001 03:32									#54
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I would appreciate it if you would refrain from using Hitler's stupid catch phrase in my thread. Just because a person is German does not mean they're an evil fascist.

No if you all don't mind, this thread has gone WAY off topic, so lets get back on.

	17-10-2001 05:07									#55
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World War II- Europe
Start: May 1940 (Not sure of date, but Germany's first turn should be to attack Norway)

Civilisations

Germany (Germany) Leader- Adolf Hitler
United Kingdom (England) Leader- Winston Churchill
United States of America (Americans) Leader- Franklin Roosevelt
France (French) Leader- Petain
Soviet Union (Russia) Leader- Josef Stalin
Italy (Romans) Leader-Benitto Mussulini (sp?)
Turks (Babylonians) Leader- (same as civ2 leader some weird name)
Norway (Iroquois) Leader- (don't know)
Finland (Greeks) Leader- Ahtisaari
Belgium (Zulus) Leader- King Leopold II? III?
The Netherlands (Indians) Leader- King ...
Yugoslavia (Aztecs) Leader- (dont' know)
Sweden (Japanes) Leader - King ...
Spain (Chinese) Leader- Franco
Portugal (Egyptians) Leader- (don't know)
Switzerland (Persians) Leader- (don't know)


The map would be structured a lot like the civs map with a few changes

The USSR will stop at the Urals. The extra map would then be map into Eastern USA so the Americans can be a strong force with a few cities.

If the maps will be 250x250, there will be plenty of space for those little countries.

There should be more strategic islands. Therefore, I included Portugal, since they own the Azores, and both sides will want to get a piece of it. It also adds pressure to the Spanish because if one country joins the war, the whole Iberian peninsula will be engulfed.

Sweden should have lots of Iron/ Ore in its area as with Norway. Norway should also have oil offshore in the water (if that exists in Civ3)

The USA starts at peace with Germany and the UK. The US player can then do whatever he/she wants.

	17-10-2001 06:23									#56
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If Civ3 started on the base of AC, then I can't believe if they went around and didn't allow one to move units into squares occupied with allied units and cities. Yes thats right, thats the best feature in AC. This would lend itself beautifully to WW2 scenarios! And if we start at the blitz, we can have the British expeditionary forces in France without actually belong to France but able to defend French cities. And the US can send units to Britain and build up and we can do all sorts of cool stuff! Anyway, thats my two cents

	17-10-2001 23:38									#57
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quote: Originally posted by JMarks This would lend itself beautifully to WW2 scenarios! And if we start at the blitz, we can have the British expeditionary forces in France without actually belong to France but able to defend French cities.

I like the idea. It would also lend itself to a liberation idea.

On a technical note, "the Blitz" usually refers to the raids on London in the Autumn/Winter of 1940. It occurred after the Battle of Britain and about 5-7 months after the collapse of France.

	18-10-2001 00:57									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia World War II- Europe Start: May 1940 (Not sure of date, but Germany's first turn should be to attack Norway) Civilisations Germany (Germany) Leader- Adolf Hitler United Kingdom (England) Leader- Winston Churchill United States of America (Americans) Leader- Franklin Roosevelt France (French) Leader- Petain Soviet Union (Russia) Leader- Josef Stalin Italy (Romans) Leader-Benitto Mussulini (sp?) Norway (Iroquois) Leader- (don't know) Finland (Greeks) Leader- Ahtisaari Yugoslavia (Aztecs) Leader- (dont' know) Spain (Chinese) Leader- Franco Switzerland (Persians) Leader- (don't know)

This is what I foun so far:

Turks (Babylonians) Leader- Ismet Pasha Inönü
Sweden (Japanes) Leader - King Gustav V
Belgium (Zulus) Leader- King Leopold III
The Netherlands (Indians) Leader- Queen Wilhelmina
Portugal (Egyptians) Leader- Salazar

	18-10-2001 01:52									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia World War II- Europe Start: May 1940 (Not sure of date, but Germany's first turn should be to attack Norway)

The Germans attacked Denmark and Norway on the morning of April 9 1940.

quote: Sweden should have lots of Iron/ Ore in its area as with Norway. Norway should also have oil offshore in the water (if that exists in Civ3)

Norway didn't have much iron, but in winter iron from Sweden was shipped from the ice-free port of Narvik, Norway. The North Sea oil wasn't exploited until the late 1960s IIRC.

	18-10-2001 07:55									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch On a technical note, "the Blitz" usually refers to the raids on London in the Autumn/Winter of 1940. It occurred after the Battle of Britain and about 5-7 months after the collapse of France.

"Blitzkrieg" can refer to all of Hitler's major surprise engagements (Poland, France, Russia, etc.), though the "Blitz" is usually reserved for the bombing raids on London.