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JellyDonut
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Köln, Deutschland
Jul 2001
time: 06:15
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Well, this is going to be quite an interesting thread!
First, we are going to have to establish the starting point for the scenario. Will it be in 1939, before the war actually began, or 1941, at the height of the Nazis' power and the beginning of the war in the Pacific? These seem like the two most obvious times for me.
I would like to lobby for 1941, because then we can get rid of Poland and replace it with someone else. France would still be around as the Vichy gov't in Southern France and its overseas possessions.
Take out India. They were owned by the United Kingdom at the time, and that leaves another slot for a civ. Here are my suggestions for the 16 civs.
Germany - Germans
Soviet Union - Russians
United Kingdom - British
France - French
Italians - Rome
Japanese - Japan
Chinese - China
United States - Americans
Greece - Greeks
Turkey - Babylonians (?)
Yugoslavia (still neutral in '41) - Iroquois (?)
Spain (also neutral in '41) - Aztecs (?)
Australia & New Zealand - Zulus (?)
Canada (?) - Persians (?)
Latin America (Mexico, Central America, South America) - Indians (?)
Sweden - Egyptians (?)
That should cover just about the entire world, no?
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KrazyHorse
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Macedonia
May 2001
time: 00:15
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Or you could start it on Sept. 3, 1939 when the war actually started. If you wait until the end of 1941, then France is already taken, The Germans have made their initial, most successful attack on Russia, the Balkans have been pacified, the Battle of Britain is over and El Alamein is only a few months away. The Germans have made almost all the advances that they will ever make, and in Churchill's words, you've already reached "the end of the beginning".
If you want a dramatic start, then May 1940 does a good job, as the "phony war" has drawn to a close and the Blitz on France is about to begin.
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:15
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The idea is good, but you haven't thought the subject in depth (IMO).
You can of course make a WWII-Civ III scenario of
the whole war, but it's impossible to include all
the more important nations (remember Limit 16).
Turkey and Sweden (sorry, don't feel offended  )
are not one of those, so they can be excluded right now.
India was one of them political and strategical factors in WWII in
Asia-Oceania and they can work as an instrument for the
brits in Asia-Oceania; so they should be included.
Africa wouldn't be a problem, due to the colonies of the
European nations. South America is abit more challenging,
because it should be neutral; and making a realistic neutral nation
isn't easy at all in this scenario (IMO).
The conclusion is that there's always those darn
nations that should be included because they excisted,
even if they didn't have a mayor role in WWII.
So the best thing to do, is to make two different
WWII scenarios; WWII in Europe and WWII in the Pacific
(compare to the Eastwind scenario in Civ II - CiC).
But if "we" should follow your idea about the WWII scenario,
then Finland and Norway should/must be included. Why?!? 
Norway: operation Weserübung was one of the larger
operations in WWII - Finland: one of those who fought against
USSR (if necessary, I can tell more reasons for this) and
was actually an allie of the German Reich.
Because I'm lazy today  , I'm not going to say
anything more for now. Perhaps I'll continue tomorrow... 
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JellyDonut
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Köln, Deutschland
Jul 2001
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
If you want a dramatic start, then May 1940 does a good job, as the "phony war" has drawn to a close and the Blitz on France is about to begin. |
Good thinking! At that time, the German player could decide whether or not to go to war with Russia.
I'm afraid Sweden, Yugoslavia and Turkey would have to be in the scenario, because they were neither allied with or taken over by the Nazis.
For whatever reason, Hitler never invaded Sweden, and to leave it out would leave a big hole in the map.
Turkey indeed played a major rôle in the war. Had Hitler decided to take it over (which would have been no problem), he could have marched into the Middle East and gotten the oil he needed, instead of attempting to get the Caspian oil supplies by going through Russia. This is a handy little conflict because we will have no trouble putting it in the scenario with the new resource model!
Yugoslavia, too, was eventually taken over by Hitler, but some speculate he could have taken it without bloodshed! He had allies on every side of the country and it would have been no problem surrounding it and not letting it have any supplies until it allied with Hitler.
Turkey and Yugoslavia both provide excellent possibilities to use strategies new to Civ 3 and to rewrite history.
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:15
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I agree that it would be better to treat the Pacific and Europe theaters separately. They really were two separate wars happening at the same time.
WW2 Europe I'd start in April 1940 to include the attacks on Norway and Denmark, with:
1 Germany
2 Allies (British Empire and the US, but use events to prevent US units from getting to Europe till later)
3 France (incl. Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg)
4 Italy (incl. Axis minor allies of Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, etc)
5 Soviet Union
6 Spain
7 Finland
8 Norway and Denmark
9 Sweden
10 Yugoslavia
11 Greece
12 Turkey
13 Iraq
14 Portugal
15 Persia
16 Neutrals (Switzerland, Arabia, Afghanistan (if map goes that far east))
WW2 Pacific is much easier:
1. Japan
2. Allies (US, Britain, Australia, New Zealand, etc)
3. Dutch
4. Chinese
5. Communist Chinese
6. Soviet Union
7. Mongolia
Is anyone planning on making such scenarios? If so, I don't see how its possible until Civ3 has an events function.
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Rasbelin
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Tampere (Tammerfors), Finland
Nov 1999
time: 07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Harlan
3 France (incl. Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg)
4 Italy (incl. Axis minor allies of Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, etc)
8 Norway and Denmark
12 Turkey
13 Iraq
14 Portugal
15 Persia
16 Neutrals (Switzerland, Arabia, Afghanistan (if map goes that far east))
---------------
2. Allies (US, Britain, Australia, New Zealand, etc)
7. Mongolia
---------------
Is anyone planning on making such scenarios? |
Replied in order of appearance in the quote.
I would actually prefer to change these civs (see above) in
WWII Europe, because some of them didn't have a mayor
role in the war, they're not accurate or the map would be
then too large.
France should only be France, and not also the Low Countries,
because it wouldn't be so realistic. Italy should be Musso's Italy
and those other German allies could be separated to own civs
(see my suggestion). Norway and Denmark should also be separated
and as I said before, Denmark didn't have any important role
in the war. If you don't get the clue, put it
like this - did Wehrmacht have to fight for Denmark? Not at all.
Turkey joined the war few weeks before the end of the war
in Europe and if they would be included, the map would grow
further more. Portugal and Persia? AFAIK Portugal didn't take
part in the war (can't recall if they fought in 1938 against Franco),
and Persia would be out of interest. The neutrals could
be replaced with just Switzerland, so that the map wouldn't be
too wide and the scenario would be more realistic.
Then about the war in the Pacific...
The Allies should be replaced with UK, US, India and Australia.
Why? It would once again make the game more realistic and
then there wouldn't be a too strong civ (compare to the
Coalition in the Gulf War scenario, Civ II - CiC) that could
easily defeat any other civ.
Mongolia? Are you trying to pull my leg? 
And at last the question about any upcoming WWII scenarios
for Civ III. If the Civ III provides good opportunities to
make own scenarios, then I might even make a WWII Europe
scenario. But before that, I have many other ideas waiting
for being made reality. 
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:15
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"France should only be France, and not also the Low Countries,
because it wouldn't be so realistic."
Why waste a space on the Low Countries, because they will be gone by the second turn? You also can't leave them blank, so its best to merge them with someone else.
"Italy should be Musso's Italy and those other German allies could be separated to own civs (see my suggestion)."
That takes up too many civs that are better used elsewhere. In fact it probably would be better to merge Italy with Germany, if Civ3 allows unique city production (so Italy units could only be built in Italy and so on).
"Norway and Denmark should also be separated and as I said before, Denmark didn't have any important role in the war."
Denmark will be conquered the very first turn. Again, you can't leave it blank, so it make sense to merge it with the other civ that was conquered the first turn, Norway. In fact, perhaps the Low Countries could go here as well as part of the "about to be steamrolled civ"  . That would prevent any cooperation between Belgium and France for the one turn they'd have the opportunity.
"Turkey joined the war few weeks before the end of the war
in Europe and if they would be included, the map would grow
further more."
A good scenario should allow what-if possibilities. One of the most frequently suggested with WW2 is what if Turkey got in the war earlier, which could have happened several different ways.
"Portugal and Persia? AFAIK Portugal didn't take part in the war (can't recall if they fought in 1938 against Franco), and Persia would be out of interest."
Persia is not out of interest - it was very important in the war. In fact, it was invaded and conquered jointly by the Allies and the Soviet Union to secure their oil supplies, and open up a new route to get lend-lease material to the USSR. Ditto with Iraq - it was going to join the Axis, so the Allies conquered it before that process was completed. It was part of Hitler's plan to conquer both areas. Stuff like this means you have to make the map larger, and include the Middle East.
Portugal? In a what if option, it looms very large. Portugal controls the Azores Islands, which were key to controlling the Atlantic. Hitler actually was thinking about attacking Portugal but not Spain, to get those islands. The US forcibly took them over in 1943, but by then Portugal knew better than to join the Axis in response.
"The neutrals could be replaced with just Switzerland, so that the map wouldn't be too wide and the scenario would be more realistic. "
If you cut out the Middle East, then its not much of a WW2 Europe Theater scenario in my opinion. By the way, the Neutrals should include Ireland too - forgot about them.
"Then about the war in the Pacific...
The Allies should be replaced with UK, US, India and Australia.
Why? It would once again make the game more realistic and
then there wouldn't be a too strong civ (compare to the
Coalition in the Gulf War scenario, Civ II - CiC) that could
easily defeat any other civ."
Nope. Why? Cos these countries fought in together in integrated armies. If you have them as separate civs, then if say the Australians take over a city, none of the other allies can use that city to move through, land planes on, and so on. Completely unrealistic.
"Mongolia? Are you trying to pull my leg?"
No. They're the one independent country in the region, and an important buffer zone between China and the USSR. Again, if you allow what if possiblities, than if the USSR got involved earlier in the Japan war, Mongolia would be an important barrier that you just can't leave empty.
Last edited by Harlan on 05-10-2001 at 00:31
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jdd2007
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Cincinnati
Aug 2001
time: 00:15
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actually in the game, (or in the 1940s) mongolia could be overrun within MINUTES by either china or ussr, well slight exaggeration. for a WORLD map including europe and asia, here would be my choices-
United Kingdom- British
British Commonwealths- Indians
USA- Americans
USSR- Russians
Germany- Germans
Italy- Romans
Japan- Japanese
South America- Aztecs
France- French
China- Chinese
Low Countries, Norway, Eastern Europe etc. (European Neutrals to conquered by Axis)-
Switzerland, Iberia, Yugoslavia (European Neutrals not conquered by Axis (?)-
Turkey- Babylonians
Independent African Countries- Zulus
cant think of any others, will edit later...
Last edited by jdd2007 on 06-10-2001 at 20:40
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03-10-2001 07:02
buuuuhuuuu, snif, snif...
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