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Out of Curiosity, does Blast Rifle Crag have the same governor as before? 
-LMP
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Guardian
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Bergen, Norway
Feb 2001
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Guardian
Ummm... I believe the UN Charter uses the phrase "chemical warfare", not "nerve gas" specifically.
So, essentially, anything chemical is a Charter violation...
The Charter also bans any weapon causing "unnecessary pain and suffering".
Hint, hint, Spartans / Hive / Believers... this could be your ban on PSI warfare, and it's already in place! |
This is the beauty of the UN Charter... it says so much without really being specific about much of anything...
Pros: It's very flexible.
Cons: It gets kind of hard to enforce it properly because there are few absolutes, and so it tends to boil down to a matter of what you think it should mean.
Also, some times it can get hard to determine where to draw the line or even see the point...
Like, what is "unnecessary pain and suffering" and is there any weapon that does not cause it?
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Mr. President
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The leaves that are green turn to brown
Jul 2001
time: 15:15
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quote:
Basic Human Liberties rights and freedoms are only Basic because Humans granted them to themselves- there are no "basic" freedoms in reality- in reality, there should be little freedom because the Law enforces safety, and with too much freedom, people will likely break the law and endanger others. |
I've got to agree with the Cloud on this one.
I believe the original point was that there are certain advantages to a more dictatorian style of government, stability and security being the most obvious. People are not inherently responsible. The immaculate operation of American and British soldiers and civilians during World War II did not come about because of democracy; they were cultural characteristics shaped by years of social training.
Democracy has not failed yet; but that time may come soon. It was originally designed for ancient Greek city-states, which were relatively isolated and relatively homogeneous. In the 21st century, as populations grow and diversify, the number of conflicting opinions and views may cause governments to metamorphosize into bureaucratic swamplands, and render that fickle beast "public opinion" not only inefficient but outrightly dangerous.
If you want proof that a dictatorial government can operate smoothly and effectively, you need only look at Malaysia and Singapore. Neither is democratic by Western standards (the Singaporean security apparatus continuously monitors its own citizens; Malaysia has an Internal Security Act allowing the police to detain suspects indefinitely without trial), but they are the strongest economies and the most stable countries in South-East Asia.
***
These new Pirate weapons wouldn't correspond to Soporific Gas, would they? As I understand it (and as the Alien Crossfire manual puts it), that weapon does not involve toxic chemicals but rather sleep-inducing resonations ("I'll just make soothing ocean sounds for you" - Homer Simpson) and tranquilizing fumes. It sounds more like tear gas than sarin, and probably would not be prohibited by the Charter.
But I'm glad to see we're branching out from the letter of the game. I thought the whole point of this activity was to go beyond the in-game Datalinks.
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
no. Pontas was removed as Governor when it went back to Spartan control. While Kessel was friends with Pontas and Pontas did prevent the base from becoming a Pirate base. No Spartan Governor could surivive loosing a base. The fact that he did prevent BRC from becomming a Pirate base saved him from being shot.
And as far as infiltrating Sparta. Sparta Command is the center of everything Spartan. Everything that has to do with security and itelligence radiates from Sparta Command. If you infiltrate other bases all you will get is last years news. Besides, after all the mess caused by the probe teams during the last war, every base is brimming with anti probe defenses. Including many probe teams per base. In fact it is rather hard for Sparta to field probe teams outside Spartan territory cause most of the effort is concentrated inside Sparta. Everyone that gets into a Spartan base is there becuase they are supposed to be. There is room for a little spying and i will conceed that a data angel probe could do it. One of our many benifits from close observation of the Hiverian Secret Police. (Thank you Good Chairman. )
Sea bases are a different story. Fleet anchorage would be a vulerable spot for probe actions since they are not as interconnected as the land bases. |
Yes, but I am saying the Pirates re-infiltrated Spartan Federation, avoiding Sparta Command because of the Central of Everything thing. The Infiltrators just infiltrated just incase they are needed, and some are Spartans which Pirates was able to convince (i am sure there is malcontents and troublemakers Pirates can take advantage of), and there is also Mind Control/Brainwash :P They did during a time Sparta was vulnerable to probe teams, before the Spartans recreated their INtelligence and put probes all over the place for Security. But the Infiltrators are keeping quiet, hiding and been in Sparta for awhile, so they blended to be part of the Spartan Society. some are already spartans. Since the Pirates and Spartans have similar ideologies, makes it simpler for a Pirate probe to fit in. But in the past 10 years or so, the Infiltrators were preparing for the next war, quietly and gradually...to avoid detection. The Spartan Security would seriously have to go in a big witch hunt which would disrupte some parts of society to find them. And good percentage of them are nto IN the base, within base radius, yes, but not all in the Base. don't have to agree, but i am just saying
Svensgaard doesn't like the spartans because they are to similar in somethings to the Pirates. Both into Power and Anti-Knowledge ideologies. Both lack in Industry at the beginning due to Military and society. Svensgaard as good reason to consider the Spartans the most dangerous. Svensgaard does agree with some of the Spartan policies, like sovereignty and so on...
So its either the Twins are best friends Or the worst enemies. When war will come, want to make sort of a honorable war, where both sides respect each other... without the can of HIGH hatred during the Spartan/Peacekeeper Wars. Both sides will be weaken at the end... Svensgaard will Officially Declare War before the Pirates attacks...usually just before their first attack first happens... unless the Spartan strike first. Svensgaard wants to try to create a scenario where it will be hard to tell who striked whom first. Would rather keep the war faction vs faction, not drag all of Chiron. When the aliens come, would like to see the Spartans and Pirates able to fight together... which will awe Lal too as the Pirates as done the unthinkable... to be able to be friends with the Spartans soon after a long drawn out War. Even then, be able to fight a war without a single Atrocity.... well, there may be arguments concerning the Porcupine and Sweetdream, but the Pirats won't go into slaughtering innocent people, create fear, etc... So they won't badly treat any captured Spartans... Svensgaard will simply get them lock up at Prison Island until the war ends...of course, after a bad cop Pirate style interrogation which most spartans will be able to tough it out Another thing, would like the Pirates to be able to capture a Few Spartan ships  hey, the Pirates still have some Hive built foils from previous conflicts... and one or two Believer foils from the Nessus Incident.
Anyway, want the elections to be over so i can figured out what to do! also want to take care of this how much units can a faction support too before Properly doing the military stats of the Pirates before any war starts.
Oh and what the Solo posted about the Pirates sort of annoys Svensgaard, realizing again how similar the Spartans are to the Pirates.
-LMP
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quote:
Originally posted by Sprayber
I'll wait and comment further when you use them or whatever. But if they use chemicals to attack the individual human then they are the same as nerve gas right unless they are sporific gas pods. Which wouldnt really bother the Spartans cause we have plenty of that and can outfit other units to carry them with relitive ease. If they are some sort of Psi attack then our special project the Neural Amplifier should work just as well on that as it does native life forms. with some modifications 
hmm. i just remembered Operation Market Garden. Hope it turns out better than the allied market garden aganst the germans.  |
More hints:
Sweatdream is base on Soporific, so base on Resonance and hint PSI active compounds, but Neural Amplifier shouldn't be able to defend from it...but won't kill anyone...well, won;t be DIRECTLY cause by Sweatdream like nerve. Also, Neural Amplifier won't be able to defend from it.... beside, not even completed may be rushed, but doubt it will be completed within a year or two...which i am any war will start before then :P not like the pirates will extensively use mindworms :P also base on something in X-COM: Apocalypse.
Porcupine is base on something i saw in a trailer for some Playstation(2) game. Also base on something from the Honor Harrington books. Only intend to use it once :P and not in a Spartan base. Of course, some other factions may try to acquire the tech... But after Svensgaard sees the result from its first use, he may just scrap the whole thing, get all files on it destroyed/deleted. Anyway, the files to make it is only located at Safe Haven, and not in connected to any Public Networks. Would have to send a Probe Team to Safe Haven to try and getting it...and i can only see the Data Angels have any chance at all to acquire the files. Pirate security is keeping watch of Angel probes, despite being friends friendly rivalry Svensgaard treats it.
So there will be a argument over those after their use or/and after the war, to wether put Sanctions on the Pirates or not, but the Pirates will be using them wisely and to avoid civilian deaths.
-LMP
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quote:
Originally posted by Guardian
Ummm... I believe the UN Charter uses the phrase "chemical warfare", not "nerve gas" specifically.
So, essentially, anything chemical is a Charter violation...
The Charter also bans any weapon causing "unnecessary pain and suffering".
Hint, hint, Spartans / Hive / Believers... this could be your ban on PSI warfare, and it's already in place! |
Then technicly, Soporific Gas should be banned :P But maybe it isn't ban because it doesn't cause"unnecessary pain and suffering". and also because the Peacekeepers extensively use Soporific gas during the Second Spartan War
Sweatdream will not be causing "unnecessary pain and suffering", unless the spartans consider possible after effect headaches as pain and suffering... but that could be solved with Tylenol/Advil/similar drugs and the spartans would be admitting they are to much of wimps to take it Or possible tempory feeling of numbness throughout or some parts of the body.
As for PSI warfare, they may use that, but the Cult and gaians would argue that PSI doesn't always involve Pain and Horror.
-LMP
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quote:
***
These new Pirate weapons wouldn't correspond to Soporific Gas, would they? As I understand it (and as the Alien Crossfire manual puts it), that weapon does not involve toxic chemicals but rather sleep-inducing resonations ("I'll just make soothing ocean sounds for you" - Homer Simpson) and tranquilizing fumes. It sounds more like tear gas than sarin, and probably would not be prohibited by the Charter.
But I'm glad to see we're branching out from the letter of the game. I thought the whole point of this activity was to go beyond the in-game Datalinks. |
Soporific Gas ain't sleep-inducing, it has something which creates some kind of resonance....and Lowers Morale. Sopo can turn a Tough Spartan Soldier into a coward.... yet, it isn't PSI gas.
Sweetdream base on Sopo. does effect the brain, but doesn't cause damage unless the person happens to have an allergy to it...which the spartans can use in the debate wether the Pirates committed an Atrocity or not. Not just teh Brain, but effects the whole body.
As for Porcupine, as nothing to do with Chemicals. But is a weapon that can be considered as an Atrocity depending where you use it. The Pirates will not use it against a Spartan base... But this weapon could be use in a Conventional Missile, but I don't plan for the Pirates to do so.
We can go beyond what the Datalinks says, just don't want to go overboard with it and ruins the SMAX like atmosphere. There is many military type inventions i can think of to use in CC, but shouldn't ruin the SMAX like atmosphere. I can't wait for Orbital Space flight can have a moon race for Nessus and Pholus...but the Aliens may ruin that idea until they are defeated...which may take half to a century to do so. I expect to elminate the Usurpers before the Caretakers Caretakers may last longer then the Usurpers simply because they are more peaceful also, would neet to see wether the Charter applies to the aliens as well, because in the game, it isn't considered an atrocity to use Nerve Gas on them or genetic warfare other bad things. Also, SMAX doesn't seem to have Bio missiles
Chemical/Bio/Psionic warfares can so easily be expanded with SMAX techs
Nerve Staple... this is one thing i wonder about... and the best view i see Nerve Staples is one from Dragon Sun, where the Hive rebels discover a chamber of Nerve Stapled people....Nerve Stapled all over their bodies...creating incruciating Pain. So won't simply turn Drone Rioters to Actual mindless Drones.
-LMP
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Before I give to much of a impression that the Pirates are invincible... There is one place the Spartans could try to hit which would hurt the Pirates if they succeed... Pirate Island.
It has three bases...the island is technicly the biggest landmass the Pirates control. The Island is important has there mines, the Marine Corp headquarter and the Aerospace Corp headquarter. It is one of the Main center or production for ships and aircrafts for the Nautilus Pirates. There is a reason why Svensgaard quickly put down a rebellion there before.
I expect the Spartans to try to attack there after the Pirates initial offensives.......
-LMP
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Sprayber
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Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
Wait! before we go ahead we have several problems to resolve.
Okay- after Roze wins the election... Zak will drop his little scandalous bit- The Cult will have its ecological settlement, and more problems could arise. I believe that Morgan was going to have an industrial summit??? |
Roze didn't win, she and Santiago are sharing power.
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And if the time warp goes ahead, lets start about a week before the aliens land so that we can have them fighting in space  ... more diplomacy, but a little fighting would not be contrary to the spirit of the game. |
This is what I think too. There should be some posts before the aliens land. This will give the Spartans there time to die honorably
quote:
Then we can have a more dramatic landing, with the faction leaders not quite knowing what is happening. |
At first the Spartans will fall back and see what this new enemy is all about. When the aliens take a human base and do their bloody mayham, the Spartans will then choose to fight agaisnt them to allow other faction's civilians time to leave. Since there would be no Spartan civilians at Bunker 118 all the Spartans would be expected to go out and meet the enemy. I thought of something interesting that somone may have already allueded to. We could have a collection of military personal from each faction on the island forced together to fight gurella style. I know that Santiago will order the Spartans to harass the bugs as much as possible.
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quote:
And what is the reasoning behind a Spartan-Pirate war... It seems as if the Spartans are angrier at Roze,PK's etc... |
Santiago probably likes Roze a lot more than Lal and Sven. The Pirates have Athens outpost, harrass ships, prevent colonoization, and other un neigborly things. The Pks don't even register much anymore. Santiago sees Lal as more of an annoyance than an enemy. Of course the Hive sees it the opposite I belive. Then there is the upcomming meeting between Lal and Santiago. I think that mostly both of them will not agree on much, but will come away less hostile.
Guardian: I wonder if Braddock will like Lal meeting with Santiago. I wonder what the prevailing view will be when they find out that their greatest enemy (The great Spartan boogy man)doesn't even think about them that much? Except Solo that is.  Even Solo attacks the Pks only when he wants to attack the Pirates by extension.
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Guardian
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Bergen, Norway
Feb 2001
time: 06:15
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Well, General Braddock won't be too happy...
First of all, there are the promises Lal just made in the Council, to have the Assault Rovers at New Hope stand down and prepare to leave and to move the naval task force away from Redemption Base... Braddock and his kind won't really make a lot of fuzz about it, but they will express concern that the Commissioner may have promised too much too soon... We have no idea how the negotiations will turn out yet and those forces could still be needed... (Also, I guess Major Johnson just might pull some minor stunt at some point... )
Then the good Commissioner takes it upon himself to go and meet the Evil One...
Well, not quite that bad, but not too far from it either. No Peacekeeper has met Santiago since they locked her up back on the Unity, and she has a nasty reputation, to say the least...
However, the Peacekeepers still believe in diplomacy and all... they just won't lower their guard anytime soon...
Anyway, I gotta go... I'll post more later...
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Kassiopeia
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:15
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We may also request that Roze possibly resign her veto power in the Planetary Council... although if she makes other concessions, that will not be necessary- however, it is obvious that the Data Angels may or may not have forced members of the anarchist Perfecct Society or Jakhobians to assist with sabotauge of the nerve gas... Also interested in the nerve gas were the Believing Special Forces, who, we have determined, due to death residue analysis- were attempting to commandeer the convoy when a stray shot hit one of the gas tanks and exploded.
That is one heckuva shot, DC. 
I mean, if the Believers deny everything, that would mean that Roze's governorship might not be necessarily questioned either.
Maybe the Believers should admit? And say that the Angels were there also? But then the peace process could be harmed big time, in case Roze's power at the PC isn't stripped off.
Must think..........
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Sprayber
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Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:15
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My take on the Spartan-Pirate war
I don’t see how it could be limited to just the Spartans and Pirates. Natan may want to weigh in on this but if the Spartans and Pirates go to war that will mean that Sparta will have to cross drone lands to attack. From their reactions to simple requests by Sparta in recent years I don’t think that the drones will be too receptive to that. In case of a drone attack, the Hive is sure to jump in as well to extract a measure of payment for years of drone activity in the hive. Besides, I think the Hive still looks at the drones as Hive citizens waiting to be “liberated” That’s four factions right there. Next question will be the Pks. Will they enter the war or remain neutral? They may have a hard time entering if it looks like the Pirates started the war and not the Spartans. Im sure Braddock would have no problem going to war again, but surely he and the rest of the PK military would have to show just cause. The University, Morgans, Cyborgs, and Data Angels, Gaians, and cult would most likely stay out of it and just let the others fight it out. The Believers may or may not really be able to help the Spartans and Hive. Leaders, please correct me if Im wrong in my assumptions.
Now we could run down a scenario in which the Spartans and Pirates go to war for whatever reason. The drones take the Pirates side against the Spartans. Both factions think that Sparta will go for Athens outpost first and they do present a large army against it, but a massive army swings around and takes one of the drone bases near the Spartan border. All along the hive is quiet and the drones are forced to divert as many units as possible to retake whatever base the Spartans capture. And still the hive is quiet amid rumors that yang is upset with the Spartans for something unrelated (they were bitter enemies at one time). . On the eastern front a siege is going on around Athens outpost. Pirates are trying to re supply and the drones are using their airforce and many cheep units to try and break the siege at Athens. Then the Hive strikes with some kind of amphibious landing, from transports and takes two or three (maybe just one) drone bases. The drones are now reeling. The hive is in striking distance of the drone capital. So they must pull back many of their units from the attacks on the Spartans and go to defend their homeland against the evil hive. Leaving the pirates none too pleased but understanding. Of course as expected the Spartan navy isn’t faring too well against the Pirate navy. Taking some heavy losses. So it is ordered to withdraw to safe harbors. Maybe a Pirate fleet tries to enter Eurytion Bay and finds that the hive has deployed mines along the route. The Spartans will use mines in large quantities as well. Cause that is the only way to slow the pirate ships without heavy losses to their own navy. That means around bases, entrances to bays and straits. Also in open sea where pirate vessels are known to travel. (Probably will discontinue placement in open sea after other factions get angry.) But otherwise the Pirate ships are having their way with the Spartan fleet when the Spartans choose to engage. By this time Sparta has established another seabase close to fleet anchorage. It won’t be large since its fairly new and instead of taking the base over the Pirates destroy it.
Second phase
The war begins to drag on without major moves. The hive has gotten bogged down with the addition of extra drone forces, but the drones can’t fully commit their superior airforce since Sparta has a large airforce as well (not as big, but highly trained and motivated) Other factions begin to make rumblings because the war is disrupting trade. Both sides blame the other for starting the war. Pirates use their new weapon against a group of Spartan ships. Spartans respond by using sporific gas pods around Athens and they begin to equip more units with nerve gas. (But don’t USE) Meanwhile on the isle of denairia tensions between Morgans and Angels can become tense over some incident. Sparta decides to send small army against the drone base on the island. They don’t know that the Pirates have landed marines at the base for an attack on Bunker 118. About this time an University or Cyborg (or both) satellite detects two fleets of alien ships battle it out in space. (we should make it more than just scout ships. This way the Progenitors can realistically posses not only advanced weapons, but more than just a few. This would also give them a relatively high population as well.) The main ships of the two fleets suffer critical failure and both crash on the surface. The Usurpers land on the isle of deainaria and begin to slaughter most of the human forces they meet.
This is where some may object. I would like Bunker 118 to be the last human base taken on the island. For this reason. When the Spartans first hear about the aliens they do something they haven’t done before. They sit back and watch as the Usurpers take whichever base first and kill all the inhabitants or enslave them. The other factions try to make a Dunkirk type retreat getting their civilians out first. The Spartans then intervene and attack the Usurpers at every turn and take massive causalities in the process. The Spartans even go as far as to trying to defend the Drone base against the Usurpers. Its like each time the Usurpers try and attack a base the Spartans attack and draw their attentions away. Not expecting a victory but only trying to buy time. The Pirate forces on the island may choose to join the Spartans who knows. So that by the end of the whole disaster on the island, the Spartan base (bunker 118) would be totally destroyed and whoever unfortunate enough to be there will be dead. A hand few of Spartan soldiers not killed in the hit and run attacks scatter across the island in an attempt to conduct a guerilla campaign. Remnants of other factions meet up along the way until you have some kind of ragged army comprised of Morgans, angels, Spartans, drones, and pirates.
It will be like the Spartans have finally found their purpose in the great scheme of things. They are soldiers in a world that doesn’t really fit them anymore. But they will find a worthy enemy with the bugs. They can chop and gas their way across the island and have the other factions cheer them on.
Basically I think we should start game play with the usurper landing. That means Spartans-Pirates are still at war but in the middle of preparing campaigns on the Island. The first Spartan post would be Bunker 118 frantically informing Sprarta Command of some kind of alien invasion on the island. Then we go down the road of the usurper slughters, possibly mistaking the Caretakers as usurpers(unless they remain hidden for a while longer. Maybe they are the ones that learn how to speak our language first and try to communicate. Sparta would want to know how to kill bugs from them.  ) wrestling with the issue of gassing the bugs and other nice humanitarn issues.
So what do you guys think?
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02-11-2001 06:30
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