28-10-2001 20:04									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin Good! I was becoming disappointed by some of the so called "facts" from that strategy guide. That's pretty pathetic then, wouldn't you say? You buy a strategy guide that has serious errors in it. Waste of money.

I mainly bought it for the sneak preview value and to answer some of the lingering questions about the game.

I'm glad it was a waste of money in the sense that Firaxis is giving us a decent manual and online help with the game. There are some games I've bought recently where I had to go back and buy the strategy guide just to get fundamental info about the game.

	28-10-2001 20:07									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 Sistine Chapel: Doubles the effect of Cathedrals Smith's Trading Company: Free maintenance for Marketplaces, Banks, Harbors, and Airports

Thanks alot.

The changes are not exactly revolutionary, but some fine tuning was made. (Above examples.)

	28-10-2001 20:07									#153
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Longevity is extremely powerful...

	28-10-2001 20:09									#154
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what BS! why in the world do the Pyramids act as a granary in every city (besides the fact it was like that in civ2)? the Pyramids were much more interesting in civ1, and i was hoping that they would have some very interesting religious effect in Civ3...guess not, they are a huge warehouse again

well the small wonders are quite interesting wrt to their effects, the great wonders however

	28-10-2001 20:14									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 *The Manhattan Project was changed to a small wonder after the book was printed.

Changing a Wonder from Small to Great just requires changing a flag in the editor if there are any other interesting candidates. You could even make it an improvement if you want but then your computer would probably explode. As in Civ 2 there are several things you can edit that should probably be left alone.

	28-10-2001 20:14									#156
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Many of the great wonders have had their effects reduced, it appears (except for a few that used to suck, like the lighthouse).

One more small thing with the wonders. What are their attributes (like the civ attributes)?

	28-10-2001 20:20									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Akron Many of the great wonders have had their effects reduced, it appears (except for a few that used to suck, like the lighthouse). One more small thing with the wonders. What are their attributes (like the civ attributes)?

It doesn't have the attributes for the wonders--it just says "see Civilopedia for details." Most of the Golden Age text relates to using unique units to trigger it. If I had to guess I'd say the mention of Wonder-induced Golden Ages was about the last change made before the book was printed, and they didn't get all the details in time.

	28-10-2001 20:27									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 Most of the Golden Age text relates to using unique units to trigger it. If I had to guess I'd say the mention of Wonder-induced Golden Ages was about the last change made before the book was printed, and they didn't get all the details in time.

Let me guess - the guide doesn´t mention the possibility of playing with 16 civs on a huge map?

	28-10-2001 20:39									#159
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK ... Could someone explain how the exp level of units factor into the defense bonus?

Experience just gives you more hit points. That's it. It does seem that hit points are NOT "multiplied by 10."

Conscript (drafted): 2HP; Regular: 3HP; Veteran (through combat, Barracks or Art of War wonder): 4HP; Elite (through combat): 5HP

	28-10-2001 20:46									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 Changing a Wonder from Small to Great just requires changing a flag in the editor if there are any other interesting candidates. You could even make it an improvement if you want but then your computer would probably explode. As in Civ 2 there are several things you can edit that should probably be left alone.

I get the feeling that my PC is gonna explode many times before I'm through. With the level of customization available, I'm going to be changing a lot of things...including making many Great Wonders into Small Wonders...

	28-10-2001 20:59									#161
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quote: Originally posted by UKScud Can you write a little bit more about bombardment units? Which units have 'random' bombardment? Which units have 'specific' bombardment?

Precision Strike capable units are just Stealth Bomber & Stealth Fighter according to this book.

We have heard elsewhere F-15 also does it. Cruise Missle is not included in precision strike capable list -- but I sure hope it can.

All the other usual suspects in general bombardment: artillery, cannon, catapult, Radar Artillery (POWERFUL), AEGIS cruiser, battleship, destroyer, frigate, ironclad, bomber, fighter, jet fighter.

Not listing numbers (bombardment strength, range, bombardments per turn) because we know at least some of them are different now.

It's going to be [fun] or [worthless] to make all the changes in the lists in the book once the game is out.

	28-10-2001 21:34									#162
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Reading this I can only conclude that Civ3 is even more slanted towards the defender than the attacker. Take note that the quote doesn't say anything about the experience levels of troops. It seems a couple of Phalanxes on a hilltop will still be able to keep an entire army at bay. Could someone explain how the exp level of units factor into the defense bonus?

No Phalanxes in the game.
Couple of Spearmen then, I think they are different only in name (defense of 2, attack of 1). Lets assume they're Vets (4HP), fortified on a hill. Defense of 2+1+1 each.

Knights have 4 attack, so that would be even if they were vets. And knights only cost 3.5 times as much. I think an ARMY of Regular Swordsmen (3 attack) would have no problem (9HP of 3 Regulars) -- it would just take a couple turns.

I do not claim to know how combat works when there are multiple defenders, so I'll leave it up to your imagination.

Unless the spearmen were in a fortress, then according to the book the knights would be able to walk right past them since the spearmen exert NO Zone of Control.
Again, according to the book, if they WERE in a fortress (add another 1 to their defense) the knights could STILL walk right past them. The spearmen get a free shot at them (similar to bombardment, using their attack strength, I think), shooting their 1 attack vs. the knights' 3 defense for each square they pass through. 25% chance of snipping off a hit point each time.

	28-10-2001 21:48									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe We have heard elsewhere F-15 also does it. Cruise Missle is not included in precision strike capable list -- but I sure hope it can.

Yet another candidate for editing if not precision strike capable.

Thanks for the ongoing info, Jaybe.

	28-10-2001 21:49									#164
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What about railroad movement-bonus within your own territory?

Exactly how (once and for all) does an invasion into enemy-territory affect the attackers movement along uncontrolled enemy-roads? Likewise; along yet uncontrolled enemy railroads?

------------------------------

And it would also be great if we could sort out the city working-area/ city border-area confusion, once and for all:

- Does a newbie 1-pop city always start out with 8 surrounding working tiles (= shield; trade; food), and if so; when does it expand to its maximal 20 surrounding working tiles? 21 considering the city-tile itself.

- Does a newbie 1-pop city always start out likewise with a free initial culture-border (8 surrounding squares) - then expand to its first level (2 squares out) after 10 culture-points? Then second level (3 squares out) after 100 culture-points?

- Important! Does wonders give cultural points to ALL cities, or just to the city there its been built?

	28-10-2001 21:53									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf What about railroad movement-bonus within your own territory? Exactly how (once and for all) does an invasion into enemy-territory affect the attackers road-movement, and also railroad-movement? ------------------------------ And it would also be great if we could sort out the city working-area/ city border-area confusion, once and for all: - Does a newbie 1-pop city always start out with 8 surrounding working tiles (= shield; trade; food), and if so; when does it expand to its maximal 20 surrounding working tiles? 21 considering the city-tile itself. - Does a newbie 1-pop city always start out likewise with a free initial culture-border (8 surrounding squares) - then expand to its first level (2 squares out) after 10 culture-points? Then second level (3 squares out) after 100 culture-points? - Important! Does wonders give cultural points to ALL cities, or just to the city there its been built?

1) After 10 cultural points i believe.
2) Yes
3) Just the city in which the wonder has been built gets the cultural bonus. (But cultural points are pooled for the whole empire, but don't determine city-specific things like city cultural borders)

	28-10-2001 21:58									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf What about railroad movement-bonus within your own territory?

There are a lot of posts here so it's easy to miss, but someone who had the guide besides Andrew mentioned (or maybe it was him?) that there was only one reference to railroads in the entire guide and it didn't say anyhting about movement.

One can't be entirely sure but I think this means there is still infinite movement. If they in fact didn't change it, I would be fairly disappointed. This means that railroads and railroad disruption become overpowered.

Especially when pillaging just one segment could disrupt the whole flow of a military campaign. This of course would be early in railroad construction since later a cautious player would make sure this wouldn't happen by building more links.

	28-10-2001 22:00									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Akron 1) After 10 cultural points i believe.

I dont believe so. If so, they could just as well give you 20 potential working-squares right from the start. Being limited to only 8 surrounding working-squares for only max 10 initial turns is totally meaningless.

Hopefully Andrew1999 will clarify this (and invasion-related road/RR bonus as well)

quote: 2) Yes 3) Just the city in which the wonder has been built gets the cultural bonus. (But cultural points are pooled for the whole empire, but don't determine city-specific things like city cultural borders)

I hope your right. Lets see if Andrew1999 can confirm this.

	28-10-2001 22:01									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Railroad (non-combat) note: Other than increasing commerce by one (along with roads), I could not find any mention of them in the whole book.

Just quoting for my previous post.

	28-10-2001 22:03									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf I dont believe so. If so, they could just as well give you 20 potential working-squares right from the start. Being limited to only 8 surrounding working-squares for only max 10 initial turns is totally meaningless.

But it's only just 10 turns for your first city, where you get a free palace which generates 1 cp per turn right away. In other cities, you have to build something that generates cp first. So it could be far more than 10 turns for the first expansion.

	28-10-2001 22:05									#170
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First of all, thx Andrew for all the juicy information.

Darn, the way Wonders are set up I believe Firaxis is being too conservative with it. There are not enough new Wonders to speak of, barring the little ones which don’t excite me at all.

Are we really seeing another end of the spectrum, now: while Acti CTP 2 team pushed too many radical ideas (and many stupid ones as a result) to a Civ game, Sid’s team tend to lag behind in adding game features and too easily content with past stuff?

Gee I wish Brian R. is still around. I think he is really the motor that generates Firaxis’ or Old Microprose’s ingenuity.

	28-10-2001 22:06									#171
	Why did Firaxis change the functions of some wonders and didnt tell us Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If you look at the wonder list, the Great Wall says somehing about easier to kill barbarians stronger walls blah blah blah. I wanted to be able to draw the wall on 10 spaces of the map (like what firaxis said it was going to be)

Where the great Canal wonder? You know, the one where you could build it then connect two bodies of water by tracing on the map a canal?

	28-10-2001 22:08									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Baloo Are we really seeing another end of the spectrum, now: while Acti CTP 2 team pushed too many radical ideas (and many stupid ones as a result) to a Civ game, Sid’s team tend to lag behind in adding game features and too easily content with past stuff?

How many new features do you want?

Do you really want me to start listing all the new ones? I'm sure I could easily come up 50-100 without trying too hard.

	28-10-2001 22:19									#173
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Does it say anything about the A.Is willingness to trade. For example are they really stingy with iron in the Acient era and oil in the Moderen? Is it easy to get a right of passage treaty?

	28-10-2001 22:19									#174
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quote: Originally posted by albiedamned But it's only just 10 turns for your first city, where you get a free palace which generates 1 cp per turn right away. In other cities, you have to build something that generates cp first. So it could be far more than 10 turns for the first expansion.

Yes, but the point is that (according to you), expanding from 8 surrounding working-tiles to the maxed out size of 20 surrounding working-tiles, only require 10 culture-points. Since the temple-improvent is cheap & easy to build, thats way too fast. Again, why bother with implementing this 2-step work-area expansion, if its that easy to expand? I dont think your version is very likely.

	28-10-2001 22:26									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf Yes, but the point is that (according to you), expanding from 8 surrounding working-tiles to the maxed out size of 20 surrounding working-tiles, only require 10 culture-points. Since the temple-improvent is cheap & easy to build, thats way too fast. Again, why bother with implementing this 2-step work-area expansion, if its that easy to expand? I dont think your version is very likely.

True the temple is probably quick to build. But generally you're going to build a defensive unit first in a new city. And depending on the situation, you may also build a worker first to start irrigating or building roads. So you might not get to the temple for a while. Or you could decide that expanding your borders quickly is the top priority, build the temple first, but not have the worker or the defensive unit.

I'm pretty sure (though not 100% certain) from screenshots I've seen that when you first start a city, you can only work the 8 squares around it. When your borders expand the first time, so does the workable radius. Subsequent border expansions don't affect the workable radius - that remains at 20 tiles (21 with city center).

	28-10-2001 22:30									#176
	Re: Why did Firaxis change the functions of some wonders and didnt tell us Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia If you look at the wonder list, the Great Wall says somehing about easier to kill barbarians stronger walls blah blah blah. I wanted to be able to draw the wall on 10 spaces of the map (like what firaxis said it was going to be) Where the great Canal wonder? You know, the one where you could build it then connect two bodies of water by tracing on the map a canal?

Firaxis Dan came on the boards and said that both ideas were scrapped a while ago because "it was a matter of scaling." They wanted to have wonders actually show up on the map but didn't like the way they were implemented, so they scrapped the idea. At least they were willing to try, actually put it in the game, but took it out rather then keep a half-assed feature into the game. Not every idea on the list is a feasible idea.

	28-10-2001 22:58									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Andrew1999 Once the UN is built, there are periodic elections for the world leader (it doesn't say how often.) The candidates are: The UN builder Anyone with 25% of the world's territory (I assume just land) Anyone with 25% of the world's population There are always at least 2 candidates--the civilization with the next largest population is used if there would only be one candidate.

Veeeery interesting...
BTW, thanks Andrew! Well done!

quote: All it says about the actual election is: "When the election takes place, you must win the majority of votes from other civilizations."

Hmmm... sounds like a real clue to me.
I suppose we can't solve it until Tuesday.

	28-10-2001 23:00									#178
	Railroads still have infinite movement Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

and here is the screenshot to prove it

http://apolyton.net/forums/attachme...=&postid=563322

	28-10-2001 23:01									#179
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quote: Originally posted by albiedamned I'm pretty sure (though not 100% certain) from screenshots I've seen that when you first start a city, you can only work the 8 squares around it.

I agree with you so far.

quote: When your borders expand the first time, so does the workable radius.

It has been said by some Firaxian (Im too lazy to find that quote - but I clearly remberer it) that the city-working area expands just as city culture-border do - but not nearly as fast. This seems to indicate that the working-area does NOT expand in conjunction with the city culture border.

Oh well - time will tell, I guess.

	28-10-2001 23:05									#180
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SERAPHIS-thanks for update

I think that you guys are confusing cultural borders with city radius. The city radius is always 20 squares. YOu can put your workers to work any bonus tile in that radius

The Cultural border is the one that expands. The cultural border is only useful to harvest luxeries and strategic resources, and to show the limit of your empire.