31-10-2001 20:17									#61
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quote: And with that mentality is it any wonder why the Russian economy is a joke and is in shambles? If the general mood is to steal something instead of pay for it no wonder they are having such a hard time holding a stable economy. FOr that matter, with the rest of the world apparently abdicating piracy on such a scale they only have themselves to blame with their own economic troubles. If people don't want to pay for something then they shouldn't ***** when they are out of work because people are stealing merchandise instead of buying it. Buying and selling is what makes your economy work, not stealing.

Do you know what is the average salary in RUSSIA???

My guess goes for around one CIV III game per month more or less. (with less being more probable)

	31-10-2001 20:18									#62
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Solver destroy the warez CD

Sure...

	31-10-2001 20:18									#63
	Increase Your PM Length

Boys, boys, boys... piracy is a rather nasty habit but the software industry does benefit of it (limited).

Elaborating:

I got a pirated version of Civ. Bought Civ2. Bought CivToT. Bought SMAC. Shall buy Civ3 (fortunately a friend TBSer like me bought CtP and CtP2 and saved me the money, time and frustration - I never played those over 3 hours total).

I got a pirated version of HOMM. Bought HOMM2. Bougth HOMM3. Shall buy HOMM4.

I got a pirated version of MOO. Bought MOO2. Shall buy MOO3 Immediately after release (I shall preorder it in USA and pay for it double - what can I do? I love the new stuff they put in it )

OTOH, I bought Baldurs Gate, TOTSC expansion, BG2, TOB expansion.

Where does this gets us? If you like a game, you shall rush to buy it's offshot. It's so simple. I bought a RTS original without testing the series with a pirated version (namely the last C&C) and I cursed myself a dozen times for it - WHAT A WASTE OF GOOD MONEY!!!!

Of course, the above are correct when one condition is met: You can afford all those games.

If you are a teenager and rely on Dad's money... sorry, but only the kids of the fairly wealthy can afford 15-20 games per year with the outrageous prizes they got (about 40-50 Euros for a new game... tsk tsk tsk...).

I am independant financially for the last 15 years, so I could afford games from very early on. But I don't want to waste money on something I don't know if I like.

The risk factor should be minimized - and since shops in Greece don't have a trial period for software... piracy shall live on and on.

And the different release date issue is a BIG one. How do you expect people (especially youngsters, who are very "high school"ic anyway) to be patient for a couple of weeks more, when their overseas friends tell them "yeah, I got it, it's great, I play by the hours" etc?

I won't download it because I haven't got but little free time to play (so I really can spare those two weeks). But what about kids in high school age, with loads of free time?

Accept the reality.

And... I think Rasbelin's initial post is silly, immature and way off line - to put it frankly it's not his goddamn business to tell people what to do.

	31-10-2001 20:23									#64
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So many righteous people on this forum!

But I wonder how many of you have ever (or never) borrowed a cd/album from a friend or the library and taped it?
I doubt that any of you have never done it. Still it's exactly the same.

My point is you shouldn't lecture people for something you've done yourself frequently just because it concerns your favourite game.

On a more personal note: Firaxis and Infogrames will get my money anyway and you are in no position to judge me.

	31-10-2001 20:30									#65
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Rosacrux: good for you that you bought all these games after having first pirated. I admit I had the same experience: to play all fancy games had to get a copy somewhere, when I started to earn some money I begun to spent them on girls ... oopps games of course.

Having said that, when my kid comes to me one day and aks for some money for Civ (put a number) or any other game, I will rather buy him a copy than encourage to get a pirate.

	31-10-2001 20:47									#66
	Remove this text

quote: My point is you shouldn't lecture people for something you've done yourself frequently just because it concerns your favourite game. On a more personal note: Firaxis and Infogrames will get my money anyway and you are in no position to judge me.

Boy, aren't we making unfounded assumptions here! You don't know anything about me or what I do on a day-to-day basis; if it makes you sleep better at night to assume that everybody's as ethically bankrupt as you are, more power to you.

I'm not trying to single out specific individuals. However, as long as people keep spouting ignorant twaddle in attempt to justify software piracy, I'm going to speak out against it. If some of them end up with a guilty conscience as a result, that's not my fault. They might be great guys in all other respects, but don't expect me to be impressed when they confess their unsavory activities in a public forum.

	31-10-2001 20:49									#67
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how the heck did this appear here?

Last edited by Rosacrux on 31-10-2001 at 20:57

	31-10-2001 20:56									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Faboba Ras - **** off. No, no SERIOUSLY. Shut the hell up, we're adults and can do whatever we want. Unless you can think of a way to stop it.

Oh dear! Get mature, you behave like a child
that has suffered lobotomy. It's useless to pick
on me by saying that I couldn't do anything.
Faboba, I'd like to show you a certain finger.

	31-10-2001 20:59									#69
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If you've never copied an audio cd, which would surprise me, I apologise Lee. But I very much doubt if this can be said from the majority of people in this thread who are ranting against warez.

quote: but don't expect me to be impressed when they confess their unsavory activities in a public forum.

What a petty, I was trying so hard to impress you but I've failed. Oh boy, how sad, never mind.

	31-10-2001 21:00									#70
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quote: I got a pirated version of HOMM. Bought HOMM2. Bougth HOMM3. Shall buy HOMM4.

"Do you have a car? I'm coming over to take it. If I like it, I'll buy next year's model."

You just don't get it, do you?

	31-10-2001 21:06									#71
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quote: "Do you have a car? I'm coming over to take it. If I like it, I'll buy next year's model."

Lousy analogy Lee. He's not taking anything away; worst case he's denying someone something. And he's not even doing that because he bought it anyway.

Maybe you should try again!

	31-10-2001 21:10									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Seems that the bottom line is:
Americans condemn the rest for being childish and impatient.
The rest is frustrated that Infogrames has decided to discriminate against them.

Shall we ease a bit on the personal insults before someone closes the thread?

	31-10-2001 21:14									#73
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Can someone please explain why oh why Infogames decided to delay the release in the rest of the world!

	31-10-2001 21:14									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Firaxis is one of the companies that will actually get my money (got a copy of Civ I from a friend, bought Civ II, bought SMAC, will buy Civ 3), but perhaps some of you folks should re-examine the supposed immorality of copyright infringement. Right now, copyrights expire 75 years after the death of the author (90 in the case of corporate works). It didn't used to be that way. In Shakespeare's time, copyrighting was non-existent. In later times, copyrights lasted for only a few years. Just because an industry can manipulate politicians enough that they pass more and more stringent regulations doesn't mean that the things they outlaw have become immoral. Screw 'em. I have illegal copies of 50 songs and half a dozen games sitting on my HD right now. The crappy ones won't get my money. The good ones will.

And Lee: the last time I checked, stealing your car is illegal because you're left without a car, not because I get something for nothing.

	31-10-2001 21:15									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer Can someone please explain why oh why Infogames decided to delay the release in the rest of the world!

Not delay. Probably shipping issues.

	31-10-2001 21:19									#76
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Leve Vlaanderen!

	31-10-2001 21:21									#77
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I was upset about not having Mp in civ3.....and I am going to wait till the game has it before I buy it....thats what? Months and months away? (If at all)

And guess what, many people, condemned others for being impatient and whiny about not getting mp with the game. How is this any different? It's "discrimination" in the same exact sense.

American markets for games are larger than those in other markets as a whole. Just as the market for sp games is larger than those in the mp market as a whole. It comes down to this. They are going where the money is. Thats how businesses work. I've accepted this. Now everyone else needs to accept it as well.......and if anyone feels really strongly about it, they should show their consumer power and boycott buying the game.

I've accepted that it will be months atleast before I get civ3. Nothing I can do about it, so why worry? My life isn't going to fall apart if I dont get it right away...and neither is the people overseas who can't get a legit copy right away.

The best things are always worth waiting for.

	31-10-2001 21:31									#78
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If they're going where the money is, why not also go to Europe (or Australia, etc, don't wanna offend anyone)? That would be more money wouldn't it?

	31-10-2001 21:39									#79
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quote: Lousy analogy Lee. He's not taking anything away; worst case he's denying someone something.

Ha! I was waiting for somebody to say this. I know I'm shouting into the wind here, but let me try to explain it for those unclear about the concept:

It's not about physical objects. When you buy software, you're not just paying for the trivial cost of the recording media, manual, and packaging: You're paying for the right to use the software--and indirectly, compensating the people who created the software, which cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars to develop. The fact that someone can make perfect copies of this stuff for next to zero cost does not alter the fact that he has not paid for the right to use it, in the same way that I have no right to come to your house and start using your car without permission. So, yeah--he's denying somebody something: He's denying them the money they should have received for the product they produced!

SOFTWARE PIRACY IS NOT A VICTIMLESS CRIME!

Lord God Almighty--why is this so hard for some people to understand?

I work in the software industry. I've seen years of my hard work cracked and distributed by nameless thieves who didn't care that they were figurately stealing food off of my table. So, yeah, this a touchy subject for me.

quote: And he's not even doing that because he bought it anyway.

No, in the example I quote (and in a few other cases) he only claims to have bought the sequels; he never paid for the original.

I'm done with this thread; if I haven't changed anyone's mind by now, I very much doubt that anything else I can say is going to make a difference.

	31-10-2001 21:46									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Lee Johnson When you buy software, you're not just paying for the trivial cost of the recording media, manual, and packaging: You're paying for the right to use the software

Thank you Lee. You've just made the point most pirates here have been trying to get across. Most have said they will use the warez version until their pre-order arrives or it becomes available in the shops.

This does mean that if I pre-order Civ3 and my credit card gets charged, I am allowed to use the software. Period. Right?

	31-10-2001 21:47									#81
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quote: If they're going where the money is, why not also go to Europe (or Australia, etc, don't wanna offend anyone)? That would be more money wouldn't it?

No doubt meisman. My point is that they go where the most money is first. There will be more units sold in US then any other country, guaranteed.

They will get to others in time, (just as they will get to MP and scenario stuff in time). All I'm proposing is a bit of patience.

I don't see why anyone HAS to have this game RIGHT NOW....I really don't get that.

Like someone said, games are a luxury, not a necessity and should not be talked of like they are.

	31-10-2001 21:48									#82
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If it makes you feel any better, you can come and steal my Seat Ibiza.

	31-10-2001 21:49									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Lee Johnson "Do you have a car? I'm coming over to take it. If I like it, I'll buy next year's model." You just don't get it, do you?

No, dear, you are the one who doesn't get it. Very poor analogy, indeed (as mentioned by others).

Let me put it in a more clear way, since you seem to be slow and/or too childish to understand what I am saying. I'll even make it "point by point", so it really gets in your mind:

point 1: Piracy is alive and kicking. No matter what measures the companies apply, the piracy industry (ie violation of the copyright) shall live on - that is reality.

point 2: (made already by others) Don't compare apples with hazelnut - we are not talking about a product, we are talking about the license to use something. You don't buy the program, you buy the right to use the program. Big difference.

point 3: You can try a car before you buy it. You can try a TV before you buy it. You can listen to a song before buying the album. You can read the summary and some pages of a book before buying it - the same should apply to games, so simple. If a demo is out and instead using this you go to a pirated version of the full game... yes, that would be out of my list. But this is not the case, right?

point 4: A game is not anything like a car - it serves solely recreational purposes and as that it's expiration date is pretty close to the purchase. Couple that with the fact that it costs a considerable amount of money - where does that leads us? To my previous saying about kids unable to afford all the games they wish to (because the magazines say they should get them, because their friends have them... because... because...).

Still don't get?

	31-10-2001 21:51									#84
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quote: Thank you Lee. You've just made the point most pirates here have been trying to get across. Most have said they will use the warez version until their pre-order arrives or it becomes available in the shops. This does mean that if I pre-order Civ3 and my credit card gets charged, I am allowed to use the software. Period. Right?

Yes, You personally have the right to the software. But Warez sites arent set up in a way where only legit customers get the dl's.

More copies are being made by people that have no intention of paying a dime, than copies from legit, honest people. The whole warez system is corruption at its highest level, and by participating in it (in any way) is contributing to the corruption.

	31-10-2001 22:05									#85
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Not delay. Probably shipping issues.

Have the CD's that are being sold in the USA been made there?

Probably they were made in some asian cheap labour country.

	31-10-2001 22:18									#86
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quote: Have the CD's that are being sold in the USA been made there? Probably they were made in some asian cheap labour country.

Whats the point?
Besides promoting your off topic agenda.

	31-10-2001 22:20									#87
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quote: No doubt meisman. My point is that they go where the most money is first. There will be more units sold in US then any other country, guaranteed.

Ok, but why can't they start selling it everywhere at the same time, on October 31st? That's my whole point. I don't understand their reason to delay the release date outside the US. It doesn't make sense and apparently pisses off a lot of people.

	31-10-2001 22:20									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Now please stop with throwing dirt and give me a link where I can download Civ3 (btw this is quite entertaining )

	31-10-2001 22:25									#89
	Re: Re: Illegal is illegal, and not legal! Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Faboba Yes yes yes yes. We're all rich guys from Finland who happen to have a law exonerating the acts everyone else is now supposed to feel guilty for.

Faboba, I have never claimed that I would
be rich. Far away from that!
I'm just making a point that you should follow
the written laws; that why they excist.
Ask yourself, is it fair to make illegal copies
on Civ III? Perhaps you should study your
local laws for further details on the punishments
for spreading illegal software.

	31-10-2001 22:29									#90
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by drake More copies are being made by people that have no intention of paying a dime, than copies from legit, honest people. The whole warez system is corruption at its highest level, and by participating in it (in any way) is contributing to the corruption.

I know that and I'm not defending those that distribute warez. The reason why I am taking this stand is that I fail to understand why some suit&tie in a board room somewhere decides to release Civ in America 18 days before any place else. It is a decision that makes no sence, even if there was no piracy. The fact that piracy thrives makes that decision even more puzzling.

All I want to know is WHY? What is the reason for the delay, and for prohibiting overseas orders?