31-10-2001 22:30									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Lee Johnson And lest we forget, GAMES ARE LUXURIES! I mean, jeez, it's not like we're arguing moral dilemmas about having to steal bread to live! If people can't afford to buy games, tough! There are a lot of nice things I'd love to have but can't afford--that doesn't give me the right to go around and rip them off. There's a word for people who do that; in Canada, they're called "criminals". All of these excuses are just feeble attempts by people to rationalise illegal behaviour.

Wow, that is among the worst attitudes I have ever seen. I do not buy/download pirated software myself, because I can afford not to and I like having a nice manual and stuff, but I have some points to make:

1) Nothing that anyone says on this thread will change the reality.
2) Many of the companies responsible for the distribution of this game are MONOPOLISING. Infogrames decision to release first in the US sucks. No, I am not a spoilt high-school kid who has to have it first (well, I am in the equivalent of high-school, but I am not going to take insults because of my age, so don't try it or you'll get a mouthful), the reason that the non-worldwide launch thing sucks is because of the attitude which Infogrames take, i.e. screw the rest of the world we can make more money by releasing it in the US first.
3) What we do is our choice, moaning and holier-than-thou attitudes are not going to do anything about it. The fact is that your morals are no better than mine, despite the fact that I have very few. This is because morals in general are worthless, limiting things that are hammered into us by society. THey are worthless due to a general lack of meaninglessness about the universe.

Ok, this one is what I wanted to use the quote for:

4) Lee Johnsen, you live in a wealthy country, so it is easy for you to earn enough money to buy games. Some people do not live in wealthy countries. There will be many people in the world far more intelligent, skillful and hardworking than yourself who get paid pittance. What you are saying is that basically anyone who doesn't live in a rich country can't play games. I doubt you will be saying this when the recession inevitably cuts the over inflated American economy back down to size and brings down the Canadian one with it.

	31-10-2001 22:34									#92
	Put an end to popups!

Ive got no clue earthling....a world wide single release date makes sense to me as well.

Things get rushed sometimes I guess.

Look at the game itself. No Mp. No scenarios. Some reported bugs already. What should have been done, is waiting until it was a complete game and then releasing it world wide on a single date. That way everyone is happy....

Un-fortunately, this idealistic thinking isnt realistic. Its money that makes the world go round. No need to look deeper into this situation than $$.

	31-10-2001 22:37									#93
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: i.e. screw the rest of the world we can make more money by releasing it in the US first.

That's what I don't understand. Why do they make more money by only selling it in the US?

	31-10-2001 22:42									#94
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Infatuation Well said. to the creator of the thread.

Thanks for your support!
You're one of the few who seems to understand me.

	31-10-2001 23:03									#95
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by ADG I only got one thing to say to you: TAKE IT EASY...

I have been calm all the time.
I didn't rant at all. I just used a larger
font for making my final remark more visible.

According to the Internet rules, THIS WOULD BE RANTING.

	31-10-2001 23:10									#96
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I just don't get it folks...When buying a game you actually buy the right to play the game (We can all agree to that, can't we?). But then how can people say we're not allowed to download the game now to play the game, when we all know we're going to pay for that license the day the game will be released in the rest of the world?

It doesn't make any sense at all, Firaxis (and whoever else is involved) gets the money ASAP and we (the rest of the world) gets happier ASAP, which means NOBODY looses

	31-10-2001 23:14									#97
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy You must really be an idiot if you start threads like this !

And you must be in grammar school, if you write
replies like this one.

quote: What's next ? A thread that tells us we shall not murder ? YOU shallt not steal

Strong words, indeed. I'm not that hippocratic.
I was just making clear what's legal and what's illegal.
The final remark was just my personal opinion.
I think it's more fair to buy a legal copy, than
to buy one made by Petrosoft, that might support
the Russian mafia. How sweet!

quote: And why can't I make a copy of the game for personal use ?

Have I said that? Not at all! Don't try anything like that.
I know more than well what I have said.

quote: Go and tell your 2 year old brother that he shouldn't stay up late when pappa and mamma aren't home.

Sorry, I don't have siblings at all.

	31-10-2001 23:27									#98
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I see nothing wrong with piracy as long as you've paid for the game. I've piad my money to Amazon, and while I'm not pirating the game (I should get it in the mail tomorrow) I see nothing wrong with people pirating it, IF THEY'VE PAID FOR IT.

Remember that fair use laws allow people to make copies of products they own. They can be easily adapted to mean that you can get warez copies if you've paid the publisher for a copy that you have not yet received. It's rather childish of us to say, "No it's my toy, and you have to wait two weeks to play it." Piracy only becomes destructive when it reduces the profits of the developer.

And remember, a warez site is hardly going to benefit from people who download from them. All it means is a greater load on the server, and reduced bandwidth availability for less honest pirates. Thus I urge all loyal Civers to download from warez sites and eat up their resources.

	31-10-2001 23:47									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: And remember, a warez site is hardly going to benefit from people who download from them. All it means is a greater load on the server, and reduced bandwidth availability for less honest pirates. Thus I urge all loyal Civers to download from warez sites and eat up their resources.

Just how do you think warez sites stay in business? Please enlighten us.

	31-10-2001 23:49									#100
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin And you must be in grammar school, if you write replies like this one. Strong words, indeed. I'm not that hippocratic.

And maybe you should go to spelling school...

	01-11-2001 00:47									#101
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That's right, people!!! Because it's illegal it's BAD!!! BAD!!! You must follow the law, and the hell with a moral conscience of your own!

And while we're on the topic, I'd like to address all those laws that no-one pays enough attention to. I mean, have you seen the number of Welshmen in Manchester after midnight???? It's ILLEGAL!!! IMMORAL!!! These lawbreakers must be punished - next time anyone sees a taffy in Manchester at night, string him up from the nearest lamp post. That's what the law says, so it must be right!!! Those evil Welsh, bah! Do they think I'm impressed by them marching around as if the law were just some piffling human institution??


So, even if what you're doing hurt no-one, even if you're still going to pay your dues - FOLLOW THE LAW!!! WE WILL HAVE LAW AND ORDER HERE!!! SIEG HEIL!!!

	01-11-2001 00:54									#102
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: So, even if what you're doing hurt no-one

Tell the thousands of people that get laid off from software companies that software pirating isnt hurting anyone.

So many thick people around here. Sheesh.

	01-11-2001 01:05									#103
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Meisman If they're going where the money is, why not also go to Europe (or Australia, etc, don't wanna offend anyone)? That would be more money wouldn't it?

Well since these places are where the majority of the pirating is then I guess you know why they released in the US first...

Heh, Europe may have money but when they don't buy your game and would rather pirate it then I don't blame them for waiting to release it there.

	01-11-2001 01:35									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I also am pretty angry at decisions that were made, that the responsability for lies in the hands of inforgrames - So I now have my doubts about buying this, or getting it at all - in the mean time.

I'm pretty sure FIRAXIS aren't happy too, but can't do much. I know that if I had a programming project of mine rushed (even though I'm not employed yet ) I'd be pissed off.

	01-11-2001 02:07									#105
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Whew, had to read the entire thread.

My 0.2 cents.


When some company tries to screw me, I have no problems screwing them back.

I've been very carefull with my warez policy and most good games I bought - Red Alert I, Diablo I, Commandos I. I don't intend to buy D2, or commandos 2. I'm *very* lucky that I managed to get a warezed copy of RA 2 which I delted 30 minutes later.

If you claim I robbed the developers of their money, screw it. I don't intend to give them my money for a product I don't like. If the way the developers intend to get the money is by cheating me out of it, making me buy a crappy game just to discover it's crappy - screw them.

All the comparison to cars and shite is stupid. You get to test the whole car, not just a part or up to a certain speed, like a demo. You can change stuff in it. You get it for life.

Also: Cars are certain to work on the roads near your home, and will be compattible with your bumm, so you can sit in it. If cars crash due to bad design the company must pay me. I'm not expected to suffer it quietly.


I intend to buy Civ III, HOMM IV, try MOO3 and maybe buy it.

If the designers of Max Payne hadn't dispersed, I'd buy it too, but now I know that group of people wont' see a penny of my money, so I don't think I will.

Either way I don't have a warez copy of it.


But I must tell all the nice advocates, that prices don't change that much and infact often grow. 50$ games often cost 60-70$ in Israel. And In Israel, 50$ is more money than it is in America and takes more time and effort to get, so we have to pay even more for it is really annoying.

Many games can't be bought at all in Israel. Many games which I see on the internet, I never saw on the shelves in Israeli stores. So piracy did help me to broaden my knowledge and awareness.

	01-11-2001 02:42									#106
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous Well since these places are where the majority of the pirating is then I guess you know why they released in the US first... Heh, Europe may have money but when they don't buy your game and would rather pirate it then I don't blame them for waiting to release it there.

Actually most if not all big piracy that crack games are USA located. Even if they have members all over the world their servers usually are in the USA for economic reasons.

Deviance ßßßßßßß



ú Ä Äú- ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ-úÄ Ä ú



Sid Meier's Civilization III (c) Microprose



ú Ä Äú- ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ-úÄ Ä ú

ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÂÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿

³ Cracker.....: Team Deviance ³ CD Count ......: 01 ³

³ Date........: 10/2001 ³ Protection.....: SafeDisc 2 ³

ÃÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ
ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ

They released in 29/10 the game cracked. So it seems hidding CD's from us all that are "thieves" around the world is just worthless.

PS: Don't start sending me mails or ICQ messages for the game because i don't have it YET.

	01-11-2001 05:33									#107
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This whole arguement is pointless, maybe aside from the moral/immoral argument: Over and over again I've heard software companies and software-type people say that casual pirating (ie, copying the game and giving it to a friend, or even using the software on multiple computers you own) is far more detrimental to the software industry than warez, and they say it always has been that way and always will be. What boggles me though, is if we (the consumers) are passed on the projected cost of such piracy, then why do companies release supposedly uncrackable software and it still has astronomical prices? Sounds to me like some people just like to find excuse to push up profit margins.

And drake, piracy has nothing to do with layoffs in the software community. Companies are downsizing because THEY made bad business decisions, ie overbuying hardware and overinvesting in companies that serve no real purpose

	01-11-2001 05:37									#108
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hahaha, u moralists.

	01-11-2001 10:46									#109
	Re: illegal ..... who gives a **** Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by GMOsco Im am going to download the game simply because it is illegal if it was not illegal then i would buy it.

Double morality? Does what's illegal when
it's illegal, but when it's made legal, he stops
doing that.

	01-11-2001 11:05									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns So downloading and playing Civ 3 is not illegal, as long as you do complete your preorder.

...and pay for your legal version of the game.
Making a preorder doesn't make you a license
holder.

	01-11-2001 11:18									#111
	Re: Re: Illegal is illegal, and not legal! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by cort spreading the manual cannot be illegal. a manual is totally useless, if you donot have the game, so there is nothing wrong with it.

Publishing any copyright protected material
without the permission of the copyright
holder is forbidden by law. In US too.

This doesn't mean that all copyrights would
be fair, but it's more fair for Firaxis that we
pay for our Civ III copies. Of course if we aren't
grateful to them for making the game for years,
then we can apparently (don't blame me,
quite many of you seem to have forgot that even
Sid should have some sort of compansation for
his efforts) just do what ever we want.

	01-11-2001 11:59									#112
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by ADG Worldwide release would defently make piracy go down, cuz many people say: "the game just has been released and I want to play it now like the Americans, so I will download a warez copy". when the game arrives many will people say: "I got the game now, so why waste money buying the game"...I don't do it that way, but I know a lot of people who does it that way...

Good thought, ADG!

BTW, you would perhaps like to see this?
A movement for a worldwide release of the LE.
The Bisquit Tin Coalition!
www.the-bisquit-tin-coalition.cjb.net
www.bisquit-tin-coalition.cjb.net

	01-11-2001 12:09									#113
	Re: An article for the naive Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by drake This article is a year old, and the numbers have probably increased since then.

Interesting article, Drake. Thanks!

BTW, many of the Russian piraters are connected
to Russian organised criminals, so buying
CD-R's with illegal software from them,
is like giving protection money to a mobster
in Chicago in the 30's.

	01-11-2001 12:54									#114
	Re: Re: An article for the naive Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin Interesting article, Drake. Thanks! BTW, many of the Russian piraters are connected to Russian organised criminals, so buying CD-R's with illegal software from them, is like giving protection money to a mobster in Chicago in the 50's.

Are the mobsters extinct in 60's in Chicago? Or later maybe?
How do you know that pirates are connected to organized crime (in Russia)?

Ozymandous:"Maybe for the same reason you don't steal things from stores when you can afford to buy them??

Do your parents care if you steal? I mean if you were caught shop-lifting would they be mad or just say "well he hadn't gotten his allowance yet so it's ok"?

Geeze, grow up and show some morals for once."

Are you sure that you are a perfect moral person who has right to patronize even on people's parents? How old are you? Do you know Eli for his (or her) entire lifetime, so you are sick and tired of his (or her)immorality?

I think that this discussion has gone too far.
Count me out.

	01-11-2001 13:32									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have never pirated a game, with the exeption of Civ1 ( because - blow me down with a feather, I can't find it in the shops. So what am I to do, trail the country so I can find it in some bargin bin for £2.50?? )

As per the laws of Finland ( so what if I don't live there. If other people can justify their action by it..... ) I have shared..... I think a grand total of 7 of my games with my close friends - me personally borrowing 2 I can think of, and lend the rest.

Right now there are no games residing on my hard drive I do now own.

I JUST WANT ( and can I emphisize this point ) A COPY OF THE FRIGGIN PDF MANUAL. WHAT IN THE NAME OF GOD IS WRONG WITH THAT.

Jason said a couple of days ago he would send me it but I haven't heard anything since. It's not going to hurt Firaxis or infograms, in fact if I have it, I may be able to convince more people to buy the game.

All I ask is two things -

The .pdf version of the manual.
Someone to explain to me what the 'issues with voodoo cards' are. Because I'm sitting staring at a screen being run by a Voodoo 3 2000 and I just want to be sure the game will run.... OK?

	01-11-2001 13:34									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Check the Help forum. It's all there. Firaxis admits to this problem and will have a fix. Until then, there is some stuff you can tweak manually.

	01-11-2001 14:18									#117
	Re: Illegal is illegal, and not legal! Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin Civ III is out and so is all the illegal stuff related to the game. So I think it's good to remind three things. 1. Buying or dowloading an illegal copy of Civ III is strictly forbidden by law. 2. Making copies of an authentic copy of the game is also forbidden, unless your local laws allow that. In Finland you're allowed to make "a few copies" (2-3) for your own personal use and your closest relatives (like mum, dad, siblings,...). 3. Spreading the handbook as a PDF document is also forbidden, unless you have the permission of the copyright holder (in this case Infogrames). And my final remark: Do not support piracy, buy a legal version!

HOLY SH*T ITS ILLEGAL!? OMFG IM GOING TO GO BURN MY ISO AND BATHE MYSELF IN HOLY WATER OH CHRIST LORD FBI DONT ARREST ME PLEASE DONT I DIDNT KNOW.

and i guess all the copies i was gona give to my friends should be turned in to the proper authorities. sigh. what would i do without you, Rasbelin.

	01-11-2001 16:34									#118
	A pedant strikes Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Illegal is a sick bird. I think you mean unlawful

	01-11-2001 16:39									#119
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well I now have the game But mark my words, I intend to buy it when it is available!

	01-11-2001 16:44									#120
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

A few tidbits to think about.

If you go to a showroom and take a car and don't pay for it, it is illegal.

If you go to a showroom with a replicator, see a car and clone it and drive it off, is that illegal?

Just an interesting thought for you...you'll see the relevence if you have a brain and see that it is not necessarily those with a pirated version (may I add, for the right reasons) who have dodgy morality.