02-11-2001 10:39									#1
	Discussion thread to set up a brand new diplo game: USA Thurs nights Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

HOTW2 may continue in one form or another but around mid-evening USA Thurs nights we should be able to get a new diplo going.
Please apply within: Players who will be around for a year or so...

Here is a thread to start discussion.

* For openers I'll suggest a random or cavebear map.
* I'd like deity level - of course
* No Howitzers?
* Limits on warfare or time limits, but lag is uneven for players.
* SEVEN civs and a pool of subs.
* limits on Happy Wonders.

but heck I'm easy!

	02-11-2001 11:11									#2
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* For openers I'll suggest a random or cavebear map.

What size?

* I'd like deity level - of course
* No Howitzers?

If you use a random map, espically a larger one, the increased ammount of oceans will limit howies. Unlike the usual world map railroad slugouts.

* Limits on warfare or time limits, but lag is uneven for players.

If there's gonna be a war, there's gonna be a war. I Guess there's not alot you can do about it.

* SEVEN civs and a pool of subs.

Okay/

* limits on Happy Wonders.

More details? One per civ? none? How about none at all?


The last games had alot of mods in it. Why not take some modern unit and give it pikeman ability? I know I have suggested this before and not many listened. It's bonus for fighting mounted units is dervived from the unit having 2 movement. The only late game land unit with 2 moves is the howie. You could give it to a current unit, like mech inf, or make a new one.......

Heavy Infantry - 6/6/1 3/1 50 (Pikeman)
Modern Regular Infantry, best defensive ability of any unit available. +50% defense against howitzers, these units are trained to endure bombardment and have counter measures on hand.........

	02-11-2001 11:26									#3
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I would like to play,

My suggestions
- No Wonders (save Apollo of coarse)
- Emperor Level
- Normal Size map
- 5 players
- Increased ship and air movement
- No unit or city bribing
- No SDI

I think there should be fewer players that way subs will not be that much of an issue and time will move faster. A normal sized map will help time also and besides that we won’t have to worry about filling the map. And numbers of cities are less of a strategic tool, than picking good sites for them.

I am flexible also, on all of these things…

As far as the Diplo Rules go…

War, double dealing and back stabbing of coarse will all be included:
War:
Wars of pure aggression but with out an in game reason would be allowed; there have been times in history of pure aggression; it will be up to the world to stop them or they themselves may be next.
It would be in bad form however to wipe someone out, and/or to cripple them early in the game.
It would be ok though to press your advantage if you wanted a river valley ect. It will be up to you whether you want to have a friend on your border or a future enemy.

There are quite a few thoughts on “Balance of Power” equality and fairness in a diplo game, there of coarse is no correct thought, but I think that the game should be more machiavellian in the sense that you do what is good for your Nation not the balance of power. There will be a point in the game when you want to keep the balance of power in the world and then there will be the point where you want to break it for your advantage. However once you do so, you your self might become on the receiving end one day.

Equality and Fairness, where the players all hope to give each other a fair amount of land and opportunity instead of pressing their advantage. It of coarse is up to the individual player however, I see no problem if a civ lands on a big continent and can fill it before anyone lands on it. That they do so, the rest should then join to form a united front against it hence the balance of power will naturally play a role to counter the large threat.

The threat of being overrun, militarily or politically are what makes Diplomacy it is not because everyone is nice and happy, the threat must always be there, that is why I don’t agree to limiting war or alliances.

If a person is in an alliance you don’t like offer them something to change, tech, money, land, an opportunity to win.

A single person’s innovation can help improve the game or think of new Ideas, like foreign aid, payment, and reparations, all could be implemented.

That is all I have to say for now, but feel free to disagree and help shape the next diplo game. I am willing to play anyway have coarse and am not a diplo vet by any means but this is how I would like to play.

	02-11-2001 12:33									#4
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I think a biggish map.

Capo would still be good in the game as a seventh player

I'd miss him.. every second week or so! He could alternate with the AI and post GREAT STORIES!

	02-11-2001 19:51									#5
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Guys, I am really a bastard.

I'll tell you what really happened Thursday, you're going to hate me but at least I'm telling the truth... hope that counts somehow. Before I even begin I'd just like to say that if I were in your shoes I'd be pissed off and would kick me out of the diplogame and probably be VERY hesitant to put me in another one. But whatever...

I finish my last class Thursday around 2:30 pm, my car broke down last week so I had to go down to the Pub via the Washington Metropolitan Area Mass Transit, which sucks, to pick up my paycheck and then go back up to school to meet my girlfriend. So I get back to school around four or so, and my best friend James asks what I am doing tonight. I tell him that I have something to do at 8:00 and I can't miss it (HOTW2). He tells me that Joe is turning 21 and we have to go party with him and sh*t. Me being an alcoholic douchebag who obviously doesn't have any consideration for a good bunch of guys that have sacrificed their valuable time to entertain me (well themselves too, but still) tell James that I'll go drink with Joe but only for a little while because I have to be back at 8:00. So we go to Joe's place and start drinkin, before I realize it its 8:30. Joe doesn't have a computer, amazingly, so I couldn't get online to tell you guys. Plus Joe doesn't have any fuggin buses around his house so instead of getting a cab like a should have, or pleaing for a ride from someone, or calling my girlfriend to drive me back I stay and get plastered off my ass.

As I write this I am STILL in the same clothes I wore last night in the UMD terminal. I am a very irresponsable ******* and I deserve anything you guys throw at me.

Now you may ask yourself? Why the hell would he just pass up a game that he not only had a major hand in creating, but did so even after he PROMISED that he would show up.

I wanted to be there, I wanted to fight this war, but it wasn't the same as being dedicated. Drake's statements that this degenerated from a diplogame are somewhat part of it, but I still didn't buy it. To me this is part of a diplogame, wars can happen based on naked aggression that's fine, but I was so distant from my nation, so inactive in its executions that I had no real mental want to play it, that's why I think I was able to just pass it up for freakin' alcohol.

Like I said, its my fault that I wasn't there for a month and my country got dicked, its my fault that everytime I didn't show up my country was in a war and I shouldn't blame my enemies for it because they shouldn't just STOP ATTACKING just because I wasn't there. And finally its my fault for not showing up for like, six wars with Israel. I never actually fought Israel, which is lame as hell because we sure had a rivalry.

Anyway, that's what I'm saying. I'd like to be in a diplogame similar to HOTW2, we could even call it HOTW3 if you guys so desire. But I think it would be wise for you guys to kick me out of HOTW2, I really don't DESERVE to play in it. What I've done is far worse than what Easthaven did or what Dimbleby had potential to do (or not do). We kicked them out easily, why do I deserve different treatment?

With that said I'd continue HOTW2 but it wouldn't be the same for me.

If we do start a new diplogame/HOTW3 I'd like to be the United States of America.

	02-11-2001 22:12									#6
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A non-Earth map is a very interesting idea, if done correctly.

For one I don't think that we should use Civ's random planet creator option, because it creates really stupid and nonsensical maps.

I think we should either collaborate on what it should generally look like and make it ourselves, or "hire" someone else out to do so.

As far as wars and alliances go, the least restrictions the better. This should not even be an issue in a diplogame.

I think we should use the following HOTW2 concepts: We raise the price of happy wonders, no SDI, tech paradigm is slowed, nukes cost more, Fascism is put into place, Communism can support more units, and we put in the HOTW2 added units (Recon Plane, Longship, Mobile SAM), spies have sub qualities.

In addition I think if there is concern over Howitzers, I don't really seem to think there should be, we should raise their build rate as well.

Since I was under the impression that we would be playing on an EARTH map I will rescind my American bid and ask that I am allowed to play as the Celtics.

I still think HOTW2 should be finished, I don't think a new Diplogame, or HOTW3 for that matter should begin until HOTW2 ends or at least is going to be ended.

Also, since we are using the random map to create a mystery atmosphere I think we should also deny humans the ability to speak before they make contact, that way close tribes can develope their similar "cultures" if you catch my drift. ICQ can be used for OOC discussions rather than the King Chat, thoughts?

	02-11-2001 23:30									#7
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why not no wonders at all.!!! why should appollo be included, it has always seemed to me a silly way to end game....

I prefer a larger world , defianly a random map, and some larger oceans to make navy an issue..

deity level would be fun to do with no wonders ,, lots of improvemnts needed...

i can be availeble as per my current schedule, but would like to have a break till after New Year... (i am still avaialble to finish the current one)

As for wars, I think they should be encouraged early not later, it is end wars that take so long and slow the game down,,, end times need to be more peaceful

	04-11-2001 06:59									#8
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Hi guys
I'll make y'all a big ol' "random" map
Matter of fact, I've got one I've been working on that would be really good for a 5-7 player game

	05-11-2001 11:00									#9
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HI ILL PLAY! (or sub) (or make a map)

and ill play with a rpg attitude!
i like emporerx1x1 non player made or random smallish map (55x55)? i like the wonders !
lets play this thursday!

love and peace (unless no one is getting killed)! terry

	05-11-2001 14:52									#10
	Belinda, Post your map/scn! Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by belinda9 Hi guys I'll make y'all a big ol' "random" map Matter of fact, I've got one I've been working on that would be really good for a 5-7 player game

I'd love to check it out!

Not too keen on randoms unless we want an unknown worl game.

	05-11-2001 15:03									#11
	Here's one of mine... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This is a map I did for a scn a while back.

Attachment: real2_b4000.scn
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	06-11-2001 04:25									#12
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Hi,

I would like to try my hand at a diplo game!

Thanks

	07-11-2001 07:11									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

i would like to try a random map.. a non world one.. I think knowing a lot of the world layout dictates too much of what p[eople do at start... the only benifit i see on playing a world map is to allow discussion of known areas in threads, a small price to lose for playing unknown world

	07-11-2001 08:08									#14
	ill play thursdays Got spare money?

i like random maps tween medium and small (55x55)~
i can play if u all will have me!

thanks terry

	07-11-2001 08:16									#15
	Random map is a no no... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't think we should do a straight random map.

While HOTW2's future is very unclear right now I'm going to discuss playing in this game until I figure that sh*t out.

But we shouldn't do a straight up random map because they tend to be pretty lame.

We should either just get one of us to make it and to just randomly throw out the civ start points or we should get someone else to do it and allow that guy/gal to use their judgement in placing the tribes.

And uh, you guys want me to make a mod for this? Cuz I think it'd be cool to make a mod with flags and sh*t. Also since this is a random map we should make our own countries up, that'd be cool and would give it a personal flair.

	07-11-2001 10:20									#16
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I think we should play on a medium or half way between a medium and large map, enough room for expansion and small enough to fill. I want a pure random map, but how big is yours Belinda?

Though if we were to use a world map, we should use the small one

I think the point made in the HOTW thread is good by capo I think we should play to 2001 C.E. because as I agree with Rasputin that Apollo’s so I say we either include all or no wonders, whatever is fine for me.

While we haven’t worked that much of it out yet… I am sure we will be happy to have Common_Terry and ComandoAndy join the ever-growing Diplo community.

When we decide what is up Capo, I am sure we will be happy to take you up on your offer.

I think we should defiantly include no SDI though, but I am flexible on all the possibilities

	07-11-2001 15:49									#17
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Random maps suck but I'd prefer not know the world so let's get cavebear to do a realistic medium to large map and place the civs for us.

AND get Capo to do the modpak:

I'll be Captain Deiticus of THE DEITIANS, as annointed by deity

I'm sure the METALHEADS would fit nicely into this game!

I'd like a sun symbol in my flag and I think we should give Capo a list of our preferred city names so they come up automatically as we play.

	08-11-2001 09:14									#18
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quote: Originally posted by deity I'm sure the METALHEADS would fit nicely into this game!

METALHEADS!!!! WOO-HOO!!!

As much as I'd like to see the Lords of Metal make a comeback in the Diplogaming genre (really really bad) I really can't commit to a Diplo game again. My political advocacy stuff is really picking up plus i still have freaking school to deal with and trying to hammer out a bit of a social life and make money to support myself and conquering the world for the Youth makes my schedule a bit tight. I'm sticking with HOTW2 till its end, but I'm really hoping it doesn't go on too much longer because I really need to take another break from Civ to focus on more important issues (like getting back on CNN).

Ozzy the Dove-Eater of the ear-spliting METALHEAD Empire will have to wait till Civ3. Axl, Hetfield, Rob Zombie, Rob Halford, Dave Mustaine, OZZY, and all the rest of my long list of characters will have to sit on the sidelines for now. Till next time.

	08-11-2001 10:04									#19
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Prometheus
I want a pure random map, but how big is yours Belinda?


Whatever it was, it's gone to data heaven now!! (since my hard drive crashed and burned! LOL)
If you want cavebear to do you one, that's fine: won't hurt my feelings. I just thought you would really be better off if instead of using the computer-generated random (which really can be kinda yuck and WAY biased towards some tribes -- I had one once started me out on the bottom of the world for crying out loud!)) you got someone from outside the game to make y'all one up: you know, someone who had some idea of what's entailed and could stick people around where it was halfway fair; make sure there was a good balance of ocean/land: that kind of thing. I really don't think it's right for someone to make the map who is going to play the game, do you? It kinda defeats the purpose of having an "unknown" world, don'tcha think?

	09-11-2001 21:55									#20
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I'm in Massachusetts, and I'd love to join a diplo game on Thursday nights. Any free slots left? Whoever is in charge, drop me an ICQ. =)

--ryan

	10-11-2001 01:20									#21
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ok probalby time to decide who the main players are, we have a fine list of volunteers so far... If I am elected a main player I will forward my Civ Name , Leaders titles and city names and flag to capo for a mod pack...

	10-11-2001 04:02									#22
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well, let's recap who we've gotten so far that have actually said "I want to play!" so you have a list to correct

deity
prometheus
capo
raz
common_terry
CommandoAndy
sanskritboy
frank?

sounds like a pretty full crew to me

	10-11-2001 04:42									#23
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thanks for that list Belinda, I glad you put a ? mark next to Frank, not sure he has volunteered to paly yet. or whether he can play, last time he tried to join HOTW2 he haqd problems...


So based on that list, do we accept 7 human players, I noticed that some only wanted 5... with subs...

We have 8 names so far, how bout a sort of team game where we get minimum two names for each civ in game and then the team works outs a roster to play, for instance, (just picking names at random) We could hav ethe following teams

1. Deity & Sanskritboy
2. Prom & Common Terry
3. Capo & Drake(hopefulyl he will join)
4. Raz & Commando Andy
5. Frank & Belinda (again not on list yet)

So then if both members of team agree they could paly alternate weeks , say first week Deity palys then Sanskritboy... or if either member cant make it the other plays two weeks in a row...

Breing a Diplo game, any agreeements made by previous leader must be abided by or broken for diplo reasons!!

This may make it easier to get regular attendees (but not ddefinate look at hiow many subs were needed for HOTW2.@!!!)

	10-11-2001 05:23									#24
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deity said i better post.
i'd like to play.

	10-11-2001 06:55									#25
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OK, here are my views:

7 players will make for the best game but we need time controls.

Makeo is a must to play!

Caravans slow the game down way too much as does conquest, so here are my solutions -
* Only trade with yourself
* Only capture maximum three cities per turn (a timer is unfair due to lag so I prefer a 3 city limit)

This is in the spirit of diplo-gaming and shut up drake

The excess players over 7 can be subs.. so I think a good crew for the game would be:

Raz
Capo/drake?
Makeo
Prometheus
Belinda
Common Terry
deity

As thread starter I think this is about how the requests came in, despite the fact makeo posted late - we spoke very early on.

I think if there are enough players we could set up two games of 5 or 6 players on the same map/modpak!! And compare notes!!!

	10-11-2001 07:59									#26
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well except for makeo being a late poster !!!! .. I still think my idea of tying to get signed ub subs is better than hoping to get ones as each week goes by... maybe an idea would be for the subs to paly a secondary game at same time just for fun and then if they needed in main game we can allow AI to play in secondary game... with a rwegular rotation of team members you wouldnt feel like a secondary player ....

	10-11-2001 08:17									#27
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Heh, by the time this game starts, Ill be able to play, hopefully. I'll be leaving this place and getting back on a modem or cable. Hope I have Civ3 out of my system too

	10-11-2001 08:33									#28
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grea tFrank, as one of the guys i rank highly for involvment in diplo games I hiope you can play ....

From my short experience the follwingwould be essential for a Diplo game..

Capo ( hisposts are the best , jsut wish he would play more)
Drake (posts and plays brillaintly)
Frank (very good diplo player)
Ozzy (Brilliant Role PLaying)
Deity (the best civer and enjoys the role palying)

Of course I would want Prom back and Belinda too, I jsut didnt get much interaction with them so cant comment !!!!

	12-11-2001 06:30									#29
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Well, while I would like to play; I can’t commit for sure, I am going to the American University in D.C. next semester so I won’t know my schedule till January so you can give my place to someone else if you guys are looking to get going. I will catch the next Diplo game hopefully.

If my Thursdays look free I will let you’ll know and I will sub if you need one.

	12-11-2001 09:08									#30
	UH Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

OK I probably asked for it cause I had to butt in and talk on it
but I can't commit to a second weekly diplo game and I just started the one on Monday night. I was really just originally volunteering to make y'all a map! LOL

So I don't really want to be a reg on this one (though it sounds like a great crew either way)

I'll sign up for the sub pool, though. As long as the "subbing" doesn't turn out to ba a Mali-type blindsiding!