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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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my idea was to give modern naval units treat all terrain as roads and blitz so they could move in the 9-15 {ie they would have 3-5 movement points) range and they would also be able to carry out multiple attacks
this could mean a battleship off of your coast could be more than an annoyance 
however it didn't work, treat all terrain as road doesn't function with naval units, but i did email barry about this as well and hopefully the next patch will solve this problem and the navy will become an important part of the air/land/sea triad
so here is how i have tweaked the naval units so far
Ancient Naval Units
*Galley 0.1.2 10|1 (sink in sea, sink in ocean) {Caravel} NONE
*War Galley 2.2.3 30 (sink in sea, sink in ocean) {Sloop} Map Making
Middle Age Naval Units
*Caravel 0.1.4 40|2 {Galleon} Astronomy
*Sloop 3.3.5 4[4]1 40 {Frigate} Astronomy
*Frigate 6.5.6 8[4]1 60 {Ironclad} Magnetism
*Man-O-War 8.6.6 8[4]1 60 {Frigate} Magnetism
*Galleon 0.2.5 50|4 {Transport} Magnetism
*Privateer 4.2.7 50 (hidden nationality, zoc) {Commerce Raider} Navigation
Industrial Era Naval Units
*Ironclad 10.9.8 10[5]1 90 {Destroyer} Steel
*Transport 0.6.8 100|8 Mass Production
*Destroyer 12.15.12 12[5]1 110 (can see submarines, zoc) {Aegis Cruiser} Mass Production
*Battleship 25.20.10 16[6]2 200 Mass Production
*Carrier 0.12.10 200|5 (radar, doesn't carry bombers) Advanced Flight
*Submarine 16.6.10 110 (can see submarines, zoc) Mass Production
*Commerce Raider 15.10.11 130 (hidden nationality, zoc) Mass Production
Modern Naval Units
*Aegis Cruiser 16.24.12 12[5]1 160|3 (can see submarines, radar, can carry cruise missiles)
*Nuclear Submarine 10.14.9 150|3 (can see submarines, can carry cruise missiles and tactical nukes)
ok so how do those changes look?
Last edited by korn469 on 31-03-2002 at 07:26
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kettyo
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Budapest, Hungary
Mar 2002
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by korn469
however what role will the air to surface missile play that a tweaked normal cruise missiles can't fill? would they come at different times or what? how would you differentiate between them?
you mentioned increasing the range for air cruise missiles, now if they have the same damage as normal cruise missiles but double the range, then i don't see anyone building normal cruise missiles even if air cruise missiles are subject to air intercepts, if we have two units in the exact same role, one of them is going to be better in most situations and the other one will build the other |
korn,
I thought this missiles as "air-launched stand-off attack missiles".
It's a perfect term from the link you gave me thank you. It was really useful. Note it doesn't comment the relative failure of cruise missiles against Yugoslavia. (mainly hitting civilian buildings,chinese embassy etc.)
So every attack missiles planes launch from a safe distance such as american Harpoon or soviet AS-6 Kingfish etc.
The main use of the air missile (asm) would be garrison bombing which is really impossible now because of the low range and movement of the current cruise missile (ssm).
With increasing the range of the ssm naval tactics would become ugly, Destroyers sweeping the seas many tiles before missile carrying ships/subs and when sensing something crush it with the missiles behind (i always play on huge worlds with the lowest land mass for great naval battles). And i doubt the ai will understand this tactic. So i think the ssm range should remain. Increasing ssm movement could possibly be a solution and it could make the asm unnecessary. Just changing the current cruise missile to air unit isn't working because you would lose te ability to load onto cruisers/subs.
There are quite some differences in the use of the hypothetic asm and ssm.
Land war: - asm is immobile and has 8 range while ssm is mobile (moves 1) and has range of 4
- asm is really useful for destroying garrisons & far away weak enemy units & crushing enemy units in neutral territory when having air superiority while ssm is useful for active defense of key locations, cities, fortresses or attacking towards railways without the need of air superiority
Naval war: - cruisers/subs carry ssm, carrier can carry asm
- more ways to use a carrier
- asm can pose serious threat to bombarding/invasion naval forces without carrier support (otherwise the ships just move to the range of 4, shoot their missiles and move away without the risk of being hit. with asm this changes some)
I really think the 2 type of missiles could work better than just 1.
When You think the asm is too powerful compared to the ssm the cost of asm could be increased some. Either one could come with rocketry or electronics i don't know.
Asm is really not launched from the deck of carrier but look at the stats, ssm range is 4 (say the asm missile has same range). So the attack plane carrying the missile just have to fly half the distance to the target which is a safe distance to shoot at the target at range of 8. It's not that bad. Although i don't think it's possible to create a correct animation for this event, for the game it works.
ONE MORE SERIOUS SUGGESTION: Give fighters, jet fighters and f-15s see subs ability for carrier anti-sub searchs to be possible. It's really important because we can't have a recon plane unfortunatly.
quote:
Originally posted by korn469
yeap a longbowman english CSU would be historically accurate, but shouldn't the english golden age come slightly later |
i don't know, smarter should consider
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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kettyo and reefer addict
hmmm, i thought i had fixed the carrier bug with beta7.5, damn i missed that one
though what i was going to do is make bombers and stealth units have the foot soldier flag to prevent them from landing on carriers and leave everything else the same, i will hurry on beta8 i've been really busy but i think i can finish it tommorrow
lockstep
communism sounds good 
kettyo
i have to be up in 5 hours for work, so i don't have time to respond to your arguments in depth, but i will think about the points you made
here is one comment though
quote:
Land war: - asm is immobile and has 8 range while ssm is mobile (moves 1) and has range of 4
- asm is really useful for destroying garrisons & far away weak enemy units & crushing enemy units in neutral territory when having air superiority while ssm is useful for active defense of key locations, cities, fortresses or attacking towards railways without the need of air superiority |
on defense air superiority is virtually assured because afaik intercept range for air superiority missions is half operational range, also with asm having 8 range and ssm having 4 range that means the ssm would have to be four spaces past the city to have equal range so in most cases it would have equal range or less, and it is totally dependent upon the enemy not bombarding the roads leading out from it
on a similar note what role do cruise missile fill right now? because it seems like a more cost effective strategy would be to use air units to soften up the advancing enemy then to use mobile ground unit to finish them off, so what advantages does the player have by using cruise missiles?
quote:
ONE MORE SERIOUS SUGGESTION: Give fighters, jet fighters and f-15s see subs ability for carrier anti-sub searchs to be possible. It's really important because we can't have a recon plane unfortunatly. |
sounds like a good idea, we'll try it and see if it is unbalancing
more to come tommorrow
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falsfire3401
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Winterpeg, Canada
Mar 2002
time: 23:16
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Hi I just played my first game with this mod, and I really like. However, one oddity I noticed was that there were no gems on the map anywhere. By the endgame I had explored the entire map and didn't see them, they weren't underneath one of the few remaining AI cities as they weren't listed in the trade windows either (not even as "Gems: 0 extra"). Is this an intended side-effect of the mod, to only have 7 luxury resources on the map? I've attached a savegame sampling:
 Attachment: chinese-5.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).
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Tridotan1
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Korn,
Why are you so keen on not allowing bombers onto carriers? Who would want a carrier with just fighters on it? The only good thing about fighters is that they defend against bombers, so are best based inland. But I guess that won't matter if the enemy can't even bomb you. This tweak has UNBALANCED the game. Carriers are useless. Bombers are useless unless in a pangea or fighting a same-continent foe. Fighters are practically useless unless in a pangea. Air power means nothing. American SU becomes useless. Stealth technology becomes useless, as do the units that come with it. If you think that in "real life" only fighters do the bombing, think again. B2 stealth bombers are loaded onto carriers occasionally, as were bombers in world war 2 during the Dooley raids. (The brave american bombings of mainland Japan.)
As for the museum thing, make a new tech called Archaeology. Make it optional and put it in the early industrial age after nationalism or something like that. If you want to take it further; make a wonder called "L'Ouvre" or "British Museum". If you want to take it even further make a city improvement available at Genetics called "Museum of Science"
One more thing, if you feel you have finished everything else off. Change the civilopedia (if you can) to accurately reflect new units and unit tweaks. And change the tech tree some more by adding new pictures of the improvements and units that become available. Finally, add graphics to the improvements to show in the city view screen.
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lockstep
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Vienna, Austria
Aug 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Tridotan1
As for the museum thing, make a new tech called Archaeology. Make it optional and put it in the early industrial age after nationalism or something like that. |
I had about the same idea, with the new tech being called 'historiography'. However, IMO we should only start tinkering with the tech tree after Firaxis has eliminated the crash bug associated with tech icons and more than 82 techs (hopefully, this will happen in the next patch).
quote:
One more thing, if you feel you have finished everything else off. Change the civilopedia (if you can) to accurately reflect new units and unit tweaks. And change the tech tree some more by adding new pictures of the improvements and units that become available. |
Good idea, but you're asking a lot of korn.
quote:
Finally, add graphics to the improvements to show in the city view screen. |
And now you're asking too much, IMO. 
BTW, korn, any news regarding beta8?
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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quote:
BTW, korn, any news regarding beta8? |
i have a crazy job, until two weeks ago i was getting about 4 hours a week, which was enough for me to get by on with my savings, but where i bought a new car (i got a 99 chevy cavalier with with 30k miles on it for 5,100 dollars, not to bad at all right?) that took a huge chunck out of my savings and the work load is seasonal and has increase quite a bit so i'm back to putting in 40 hours weeks along with going to school and trying to get in shape so i can join the army reserve i haven't had any spare time to spend on the blitz mod, also my mom bought a new house and i promised i'd help her move on the weekends and i'm on my way there now, i don't have that much more to do to finish it up, but then again i don't have any time to do even that, tommorrow evening hopefully, i'm sorry for the inconvience but i hope you can understand
quote:
Why are you so keen on not allowing bombers onto carriers? |
for the flavor of realism
quote:
Who would want a carrier with just fighters on it? |
the US Navy for one
quote:
Carriers are useless. |
Tridotan1
well one carrier full of fighters right now can do about as much damage as what two carriers full of bombers could do in 1.17f...
quote:
B2 stealth bombers are loaded onto carriers occasionally, |
when? they are based in Missouri, and from what i've read it takes about 100 hours of service for every hour of flight time, also there are very few facility able to service them, and carriers are not one of them, also as far as i know they are not designed to land on a carrier, and i'm fairly sure the catapult wouldn't get them airborne
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/odd/odd25.jpg
there's a picture of B-2's on a carrier, but it's faked
check out this site for more
http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/odd/index4.htm
quote:
as were bombers in world war 2 during the Dooley raids. (The brave american bombings of mainland Japan.) |
the Doolittle raids were nothing more than propaganda and had no real impact on japanese wartime production, and it wasn't until the US started getting bases closer to japan that US bombing really began to take its toll
quote:
This tweak has UNBALANCED the game. |
i'm going to do slightly more tweaking on bomber and fighter stats, i'll also look at incorporating the air base mod into the blitz mod, but if that doesn't work i'll once again allow bombers to land on carriers if the consenus is that airpower is too weak, but in all seriousness (i was joking around with you above) i'll try my very best to make sure it isn't unbalanced when i'm finished tweaking, and if something doesn't work i'll go back to the original setting, i just usually have to try every possible tweak first
quote:
As for the museum thing, make a new tech called Archaeology. |
adding and changing techs will be the last thing i do
quote:
One more thing, if you feel you have finished everything else off. Change the civilopedia (if you can) to accurately reflect new units and unit tweaks. |
i have been doing that on a limited basis already 
and when i fit the definitive 1.06 this will be completely finished
micokeman
are you trying to hurry with the hurry button in the city screen or with the leader's hurry command? the leader's hurry command should function as normal, but trying to use the hurry command from the city screen in a city that has a leader in it has no effect in the blitz mod or civ3 1.17f
hollywooddchi
that is technically a civ3 bug and not a blitz mod bug and hopefully they will fix it
Last edited by korn469 on 06-04-2002 at 21:52
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:16
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The powers of editing a post, eh Korn.
I know exactly how you feel about having limiting time...going to school (about 7 hours, five days a week), working 30 hours a week, homework, trying to maintain a social life outside of school, having free time for yourself, and a few other things that I haven't mentioned is quite a difficult task to balance. Usually in the process of doing it, too, sleep gets dropped from the whole mix (3-4 hours of sleep a night:lol So I completely understand how you feel.
Well, since this modmaker is going to start doing playtesting here soon I bet that the next patch release should be in the next few weeks.
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Dr. Stones
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Scottsdale, Az
Apr 2002
time: 05:16
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Ive been lurking in the shadows too long. I have installed the mod and it looks great so far. Except one thing. I can beat the regular game on Emperor level. With this mod I cant. I'm playing Zulu and Im being beaten like a red-headed step child!!!! Im very behind in the tech race and my cities are now being overrun by my neighbors culture......ARRRRRGGHHHH!!!!!! Looks like I have no chance to get a wonder built too........any suggestions?
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:16
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Even though, there hasn't been much playing of Civ3 lately by me (bought an X-Box recently  ), I still have aspirations of playing of the game once the next patch comes out. That is only if the changes/additions/features of v1.21f are appealing enough to get me to play again.
Well, the actual reason why I'm posting this is because I've come up with an idea.
IIRC, Korn, you increased the disappearance ratio of resources and kept the appearance ratio the same. Either way, though, it doesn't matter. IMO, Firaxis had the intentions of making resources fairly difficult to come by, and just quite enough difficult that trades would have to be made in order to get certain resources. However, IMO, that didn't turn out the way Firaxis had intended it to. Instead players were irritated with the way resources were sparatic and if every Civ had a certain resource except themselves. It does seem unfair that by random chance you were placed in a land that doesn't contain the resources you would like to have. Although, net very often would you not be able to get a required resource, so the strategic realm of resources was lost. Typically most Civs were able to get the resources they needed, therefore, the need for trading of resources was diminished. If resources were a lot less than common, then not as many Civs would be able to have a particular resource. With less Civs having a particular resource, then the chance of trade will increase as long as other Civs have an excess of the resource. However, another problem arises in that resources disappear fairly quickly. If a Civ had the oppurtunity to have control over a particular resource for a longer amount of time it would give the effect of a certain Civ dominating a particular resource. In turn more strategy will be added to the game by less Civs having a resource and those Civs having those resources for a longer amount of time.
Here are the new values I suggest for resources: Decrease each appearance ratio on each strategic resource by 40, then decrease the disappearance ratio down from 900 to 500 on all of them. Except on horses the 'd ratio' should be decreased down to 400. How is it that horses can disappear? I guess for game purposes even a low 'd ratio' is needed.
With the changes made to all of the units the effect should not be to devasting to Civs who lack resources to the point that there is no chance of winning for them. One era that could use another 'no resource' unit is the Ancient era. Under Mysticism the Raider unit should be added, and should have be 3|1|1 3. *If you don't like my resource idea, then you could add the Raider unit in a differen way: Make the Raider unit have hidden nationality and would be 1|1|2 3.* The Middle Ages could use another 'no resource' unit around Military Tradition or so, but I can't think of any myself. Then for the rest of the game the units are pretty well balanced for the most part in terms of 'no resource' units (this is considering the units to be added into beta 8).
Btw, how is beta 8 coming along anyways? I know you've been busy, which is fine, but do you still plan on supporting this mod? I'm sure the answer will be a 'yes', but I'm just curious. Come Wednesday we will find out if any new additions have been implemented into the editor.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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Antex
as i stated at civfanatics, the use of the word obsolete by me was really a misnomer, and with the tools we currently have there is no way (that i know of at least) to obsolete buildings, however gramphos might be able to give you help, i think he is on vaction right now and not very active but he should be back soon
techwins
i have a question, do you want a low chance of resources disappearing? if so, then high disapparence ratios from what i understand mean low chances of resources disappearing, basically 900 means on average a resource node disappears every 900 years
quote:
Btw, how is beta 8 coming along anyways? I know you've been busy, which is fine, but do you still plan on supporting this mod? I'm sure the answer will be a 'yes', but I'm just curious. |
yes is the short answer,
the longer answer is work has gotten even more hectic than ever and i'm getting in 60+ hours a week counting the commute (though i'm hoping to get a job with sprint which is about 50% better in terms of hourly wage and about half of the hours), then there is school, trying to run at least a mile, helping my mom move all of her stuff (she's a pack rat i told her it looked like i was moving in sanford and son) on sundays (but we about have it finished around 20 or 30 more hours so a few more sundays), then i have a girlfriend (2 years 7 months and counting) who demands and expects to have me for the greatest majority on saturdays which is the one day we both have off, then all of the other little things
all i need is a day or two off so i can get everything together, but i'm going to wait to incorporate what's in the patch i have my fingers crossed, i really hope they throw us a bone on some of the things we've asked for
so start hoping with me i get the job at sprint, as it is now, on weekdays i barely have time to do anything 
ps this quick reply feature is awsome!
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31-03-2002 00:42
...
In summary, that sucks! Any solutions?
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