22-11-2001 05:29									#31
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i gotta question about the pyraminds now, do they not build graneries now, and what's this sunboat, if you build the pyramids in an in land city, will you get the boat/oblisk?

thnx for the new version

	22-11-2001 17:51									#32
	since this is the war-mod Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

what about doubling the hit points for all the units (I don't know if this is possible), or some way of evening the new-units lose to old ones ratios.

Just an example I have lost two battleships in my first game (I haven't finished this one yet - the tournament one) - one to an ironclad, and one to a transport

I have sunk 2 ironclads before, with one battleship, and a few frigates with the other one. The next thing I know is I attack the ironclad and I am sunk, not to mention the frustration when in the next attack I lose to the transport with the other one, and enemy managed to make the landing! (both battleships with 3 hitpoints vs ironclad/transport with four, but anyway ironclad lost two HP, and transport two???) I'd say this is a bit on the extreme side. (I read somewhere that it should have been 98% in favour of the battleship when attacking ironclad, but it surely isn't)

I guess if you had double the hit points for each unit there would be 50% less chance for weaker units to win since there would be 2X more probability "battles" therefore higher values probability should have twice as many chances to win.

I am not sure if this has been addressed, but just a thought, (or is there a mod that addresses this point aready?)

one more thing

I think it would be good to give fortresses zone of control (like in Civ 2) basically that enemy units have to either attack the fortress or make a nice roud walk around it if they want to go trough. That would give fortresses some sense and make defending borders sensible. (you could have fortresses every three squares for example on the front line and noone could go trough, maybe some stealth unit?)

btw, I missed, but what is the Blitz ability?
and can aircraft sink naval units anc the other way around now?

-- I am getting ready to play your mod after the first normal game

Last edited by OneFootInTheGrave on 22-11-2001 at 18:26

	22-11-2001 18:30									#33
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Paradigm

quote: i gotta question about the pyraminds now, do they not build graneries now, and what's this sunboat, if you build the pyramids in an in land city, will you get the boat/oblisk?

the pyramids no longer give you a granary in each city on the continant...instead it does two things

1) it allows you to build obelisks. only the player who controls the pyramids can build it
2) it gives you an obelisk in each one of your cities on the continant

the obelisk has the following stats:
*cost 80 shields
*one upkeep
*+2 culture

so while it isn't the greatest building ever...this means that if you build it and you have 10 cities on the same continant that suddenly the pyramids is churning out 23 culture a turn for you, and any new cities you place will start with a culture building, so in 5 turns the borders of all of your new cities on the continant will expand...even those that are so far away that they take a trillion turns to build a temple

so this means that the pyramids are now a symbol that allows a player to consolidate their empire with culture fairly rapidly

and yes it applies to every city

ps fascism was not going to be in this version at all, i was trying to add in the partisan unit, however you asked for it and you got it!

OneFootInTheGrave

i haven't tried doubling hit points yet because of one concern that i haven't got around to testing, and that is will units still only regenerate 1 hit point per turn...if so they will be out of action for twice as long which is something i'd like to avoid

i too have noticed that ironclads seem to be able to sink battleships at will...however although i have bumped up both battleship and ironclad stats, battleships have gotten the better end of the deal i think, i am also still adjusting cruise missile stats, so in version 1.03 they should be able to sink ironclads at will, but not completely rape battleships on a cost basis

i will see if it is possible to add zone of control to forts, if not i will make them cheaper just because you asked

	22-11-2001 18:38									#34
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Thanks

btw, I couldn't find what is the blitz abiltiy exactly, and can airplanes sink ships now (and vice versa).

	22-11-2001 18:39									#35
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quote: btw, I missed, but what is the Blitz ability? and can aircraft sink naval units anc the other way around now?

you edited your post after i had responded

the blitz ability allows a unit to attack multiple times,
basically what this means for air units is that you can conduct multiple air missions in a single turn, like lets say you could rebase a bomber you built in new york over to london and then bomb berlin in the same turn for example

ground units just do multiple attacks with blitz, and now armies can attack multiple times so they should be much more effective

aircraft still can't sink naval units, but without gaining air superiority naval operations will suffer, and whatever i did to cruise missiles appear to make them capable of sinking ships!

	22-11-2001 18:44									#36
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I like this very much

I hope to finish my first (and normal) game by tomorrow.

	22-11-2001 18:52									#37
	Inflate your Upload Space

well i can't wait for you to play my mod and to give me some feedback on it

	23-11-2001 03:06									#38
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Just checking out your mod but im wondering why you removed the cruise missile ability of battleships? I think I remember that the Iowa battleship was reconfigured to launch tomahawks and used them during desert storm..

Pretty sure at least. 1940s style battleship later updated with modern tech.

Just curious.


---edit: forget the above, just saw that you put it back in.

Last edited by Ancientfool on 23-11-2001 at 03:38

	23-11-2001 03:57									#39
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Seem to have some kind of hang bug with the mod. 1650bc or so playing as the Japanese. I traded Iron Working to the American Indians and the game went into a "please wait" for 15 minutes before I had to ctrl-alt-delete. Cant think of any unusual circumstance.

Never happened before so im assuming its the mod. PentIII 800, yada yada.

Last edited by Ancientfool on 23-11-2001 at 06:37

	23-11-2001 10:31									#40
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Ancientfool

the reason i took out the battleship ability was not to confuse the AI, kind of like in how you can add worker abilities to all units but the AI won't recognize it unless it has every single one of the abilities and it is set in its AI routine to be a worker

once i am sure that the AI will use cruise missiles on Aegis cruisers then i will go and see if it can handle them on battleships with AI set to Naval Power

as for the crash, does it only do it with the Japanese or does it do it with all civs? i will play it and see if it causes my computer to hang up, and hopefully try to fix anything that it is causing it to hang...if there is any other info you can give me i'd appreciate it

__________________________________

oh yea and if you think about it, the AI in civ3 isn't that much better than it was in SMAC, overall i say it is better, but the one thing that soren and the rest of the firaxis team did right was to simplify the rules enough to give the AI a chance

in Civ3 you will get the most productivity out of a square if it has been cleared and then has a railroad, and either irrigation or a mine and the AI has the following choices

*clear forrest/jungle
*clear pollution
*build road
*build railroad
*build mine
*build irrigation
*plant forrest
*build fortress
*build colony
*rejoin city

in SMAC there was no one best possible configuration except maybe for forrest everything, and the AI had the following choices

*clear fungus
*build road
*build magtube
*build farm
*build mine
*build solar collector
*build borehole
*build echelon mirror
*tap aquefier
*plant forrest
*plant fungus
*raise land
*lower land
*build condenser
*build soil nutrifier
*build sensor
*build bunker
*build airbase

so the AI certainly has it easier in civ3

	23-11-2001 11:01									#41
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Yeah, just happened again but this time at around 2500 bc. Screen frozen. Japan, regent difficulty, large world, middle archipeligo world, standard other settings with 11 (? max) random opponents. Both frozen games had the exact same settings.

This time it didnt follow a tech swap but otherwise im not sure what I was doing. Not running any other actual mods but I am using the Snoopy graphics set.

Ill try another nationality and see but otherwise im going to remove it for now.

	23-11-2001 11:12									#42
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Ancientfool

well i will play with the same settings and see if it freezes on my computer, i did edit Japan so they liked fascism so that might be the cause of the lock up, or for some reason it might not like Snoopy's graphics set...but i will get back to you

	23-11-2001 16:06									#43
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Keep up the good work on the mod Korn, as a fellow modmaker, I wish you luck!

	24-11-2001 02:21									#44
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korn do you plan on keeping the facist gov in the upcoming mods??

I am currently playing regent, American, 4 other players, large map; 450AD.

	24-11-2001 22:51									#45
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thanks monkspider!

quote: korn do you plan on keeping the facist gov in the upcoming mods?? I am currently playing regent, American, 4 other players, large map; 450AD.

paradigm

why do u ask? did it cause your game to lock up also???

i really hope it didn't!!!!

but if it doesn't cause problems then i fully intend on keeping it

	24-11-2001 23:37									#46
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Korn, is the Fascism gov included in your mod identical to Wolfschanzes, or did you tweak some settings to your personal satisfaction?

Currently, Wolf has designed fascism to be an intermediate gov between democracy and communism, with communism being the 'ultimate' war goverment. Many modders created a fascism mod where fascism was the ultimate war government.

Personally, I'm not certain which I prefer. But, if you could tell me which kind of fascism you've adopted, it may help me decide whether to use your mod as is, or to tweak fascism to something closer to what I want.

Great work, by the way. Too bad you couldn't get Manhattan to work as a small wonder - maybe in a couple of months. Regarding unit stat changes - was this done to make later-age units more powerful offensively and defensively versus older units? If so, I concur. One of the programmers (Soren, I think) mentioned that unit stats were relatively close to one another to prevent a player with modern units from simply obliterating opponents, and while I understand his goal, I prefer realism (an ironclad would not sink a battleship) over fair play.

Again, good job.

	25-11-2001 00:22									#47
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ajbera

i created my own version of facsism for various reasons, one was i intend on keeping my download fairly small (less than 500kb) and wolf's was already 2.2 mb

so without being able to download his version, and since he didn't have a good readme i just made my own, based mostly on nazi germany

since this is the first attempt at modding governments i am sure that i will institute more changes along the way, but my goal is to give the people at least three (maybe more later) viable modern government choices

so far i pumped up communism by giving them better spies, more unit support, and immunity to investigate city

i pumped up both democracy and republic by giving them small unit support 0/1/2

what i would really like to do is to give democracy the ability to support free workers to pump up their economy

as for fascism in my mod, it has the trade bonus and the same corruption rate as democracy, however workers in democracy work faster

i intentionally made fascism have forced labor instead of paid labor so the only thing they can do with their extra money is to use it for either research or espianage

they have the same support rate as a monarchy

however fascism has one major down side, and that is it can never assimilate and it has massive resistance factors...so as a fascist you will either have to raise cities you capture or garrison them to quell resistance

i gave them a 4 military police rating, and i bumped communism up to 4 also, but what i would like to do (it's impossible right now) is to make each military unit under fascism to quell 2 pop and to have a limit of 3, while under communism each unit only quells one unit but have a limit of 8

so fascism should be a good government in terms of research, but you have to use forced labor (and endure the unrest that comes with it to hurry) and while it is pretty good at fighting, communism may be better because of its higher support, and democracy would be better at economy...but facsism would be good, and if you don't mind either razing everything or deal with massive resistance then you should be fine

what i would really like to be able to do is set government specific buildings...what i might be able to do is have temples, cathedrals etc, be in the same class as kgb/gestapo buildings so they would replace each other, but i haven't tried this out yet so i'm not sure who it will work

also i made modern units more effective all around so that a modern military should have an easier time of overcoming an obsolete army, plus in my mod everthing upgrades, so there shouldn't be any warriors running out in 2010 anyways

my next big project is adding in partisans, which will have the following stats

2(8).2.2 range/rate of fire 1/1, with the hidden nationality flag, and treats all squares like roads, available with communism, they will cost 20 shields and 1 pop

so how would you like fascism to work and what are your thoughts on it?

Last edited by korn469 on 25-11-2001 at 00:49

	25-11-2001 12:58									#48
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A change I made to your Mod were to have the Courthouse give off 2 culture. The reason for this is because in large part the Courthouse is fairly useless, so this will provide some importance to the Courthouse. Of course this is just a personal preference of mine, but also an idea for you.

Another change I made was to Fascism; I changed the corruption level from minimal to nuisance. I think that Democracy should be the only gov. with a corruption level of minimal.

I also took away the trade bonus tundra receieves when a road is built upon it. In all reality, how much is commerce going to increase when a road is built in tundra?

A few suggestions (items I would like to have included) I have for you are as follows:

1)Make the older boats more powerful, so they will actually be worth building. In fact adding another boat in between galley and caravel would be pretty nice, if you are willing to create new units, but if not then that's fine (if so contact Snoopy to help you out on the graphics part of it, I'm sure he'll do so). Most likely increasing the stats for the older boats will in turn force you to increase all of the other boats' stats, and this is fine by me.

2)Tweak the tech tree a bit. Making Monarchy a prerequisite for Feudalism is a definite. Adding an elephant unit (again if you can/want to) for Polytheism, then in turn lower the stats for the Indian War Elephant and make the Indian War Elephant the upgraded UU to the Elephant.

3)Use the changes I made to your mod.

4)Continue to keep up the good work, because you have done a valiant job on this mod, Korn.

	25-11-2001 21:13									#49
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TechWins

well i had already been toying with the idea of giving the courthouse a +1 bonus to culture, but hey i will go with your suggestion and add +2

also i intend to keep fascism's level of corruption the same, and then rebalance the game by differentation of the buildings democracy, fascism, and communism can build

for example most likely in version 1.03 (certainly in version 1.04) i plan on making the following change to colosseums

Democracy will replace the colosseums with the Movie Theater
Fascism will replace the colosseum with Fascist Youth
Communism will replace the colosseum with something, i know what it stats should be i'm just not sure about what to call it

i also have a few wonders in mind for them

as for tundra, should i take away the food bonus also? but taking away the trade bonus sounds good

1)Make the older boats more powerful

when you say make the older boats more powerful, which boats are you taking about exactly? and also which stats do you think needs improving? i have already made all of the boats besides the galley more powerful (all of them have at least better movement, and most have better attack/defense) could the same effect you desire be achieved by making them cheaper? i don't want modern naval units to lose to old naval units, but if you can point out what imbalances you see i will try my best to correct it

2)Tweak the tech tree a bit. Making Monarchy a prerequisite for Feudalism is a definite.

the only way to make monarchy a prereq for feudalism without changing the era's they come in is by making it a required tech, i'll see about that and the war elephants but i'm not sure when i'll put those in

i'm glad you are enjoying this mod! has it crashed any on you tech wins?
any other thoughts or suggestions?

	25-11-2001 22:20									#50
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Ancientfool

it looks like it is freezing on me too when i use your settings, i'm not sure why though i will work on fixing it

	25-11-2001 23:27									#51
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ancientfool

could you reload my mod and see if this save game freezes on your computer, because it doesn't freeze on mine even thought it has the seetings that causes the freeze...i'm not sure what's wrong but i will keep playing this game to try and find out

Attachment: civilization iii autosave 4000 bc.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	26-11-2001 02:54									#52
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by korn469 as for fascism in my mod, it has the trade bonus and the same corruption rate as democracy, however workers in democracy work faster i intentionally made fascism have forced labor instead of paid labor so the only thing they can do with their extra money is to use it for either research or espianage they have the same support rate as a monarchy however fascism has one major down side, and that is it can never assimilate and it has massive resistance factors...so as a fascist you will either have to raise cities you capture or garrison them to quell resistance i gave them a 4 military police rating

I suggest to change the corruption rate of Fascism from 'minimal' to 'nuisance' (same as Republic) like Wolfshanze did in his mod. Otherwise, I agree with your version of a Fascist Civ3 government, especially with the assimilation chance of 0%.

	26-11-2001 05:25									#53
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well since you and techwins both want it, ok in version 1.03 i will change it to nuisance

i am play testing right now and v1.03 will most likely be out tommorrow...i am really trying my best to fix the partisans

	26-11-2001 06:28									#54
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should we start a new game with 1.03 or can we just upload the update and continue a saved game?

	26-11-2001 06:44									#55
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

i'm not sure yet OneFootInTheGrave

i am still trying to locate the cause of the lockup and i haven't got to add the partisan unit yet

though doing some testing, neither submarine nor stealth do anything for ground units

	26-11-2001 11:34									#56
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Korn,

I really like your idea of having the coliseum turn into a different building when a different gov is intact, but I am curious on how you are going to be able to do that.

Concerning tundra, I had originally taken away the food bonus, but I realized that would leave tundra without any original terrain bonuses what so ever. Although, this would deter the AI from placing cities near tundra even more, so maybe it's not a bad idea after all. Then again it might cause large problems for unlucky Civs that are placed in large part around tundra for their starting position. What do you think? While talking about terrain, when a mountain is mined it should give three extra shields. Grassland should not give off a bonus when mined, and neither should plains. This just creates a horrific looking map and a plethora of micromanagement. To counteract the loss of shields available, just lower the shield cost of Ancient units/improvements/wonders.* In fact, certain Ancient wonders that usually aren't built often should have their shield cost lowered significantly, anyways.

The older boats I was referring to are galley, caravel, frigate, etc... It just seems to me that boats, especially the 'older' boats, are useless (same as Civ2). Maybe decreasing the shield cost would do the trick, as you suggested.

Yeah, that's too bad about not being able to make Monarchy a prereq for Feudalism. Maybe Monarchy should be a required tech to advance to the next level, because Feudalism shouldn't be able to be researched unless Monarchy is researched first. However, this might unbalance the tech tree a bit. I'm not really sure on this one. Well, I hope you eventually put those in the game, because an elephant unit is desperately needed, IMO. Music Theory and Printing Press should provide an improvement or wonder with them, because too many techs are 'useless' (only are links to other techs). An idea for the improvement for the Printing Press would be an improvement called "The Printing Press" that would either increase production or education. A Small Wonder idea for Music Theory would be called "The Study of Arts" that would give off 10 culture per turn or something to that effect. Also, lowering the cost for ancient techs might speed up the game a bit.

* - If the Printing Press improvement is added as a production increaser, then taking away mining bonuses for grasslands and plains and lowering the shield cost for Ancient units/improvements/wonders will be balanced. By the time the shield cost for items increases a production increaser will be available. If most of these ideas are taken into consideration, then they will be balanced, otherwise they may not be.

quote: i'm glad you are enjoying this mod! has it crashed any on you tech wins? any other thoughts or suggestions?

No the mod hasn't crashed on me, YET. Well, that's about all of the suggestions I have for now.

	26-11-2001 20:55									#57
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins Music Theory and Printing Press should provide an improvement or wonder with them, because too many techs are 'useless' (only are links to other techs). An idea for the improvement for the Printing Press would be an improvement called "The Printing Press" that would either increase production or education.

I was thinking along these lines, but I suggest city improvement called "Newspaper." The newspaper would provide 1 culture and a small research bonus (simulating the spread of diverse opinions and information in the paper.) Perhaps a small wonder, with slightly beefier settings, called 'National Newspaper?"

	27-11-2001 03:36									#58
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ok, downloaded the save file. Ill play it tonight and see what happens.

	27-11-2001 16:32									#59
	Had a few problems but here it is Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

When i was creating the zip file i erased my civilopedia.txt so i am including an old civilopedia, however the mod should work, please follow the install instruction included with the mod

hope you enjoy, please report any problems you have and feel free to make suggestions!

Last edited by korn469 on 28-11-2001 at 04:06

	27-11-2001 23:30									#60
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I got the Please Wait... freeze.

I was playing 1.03 vesrion, new game on huge world, the English. It was only 1300 BC, a few tech researched, it happened when all my units were engaged and I gave the scout go to command (with mouse) and it froze.

no idea of the reason. I have win 2000, amd xp1333, 256 mb ram etc...

and I am using snoopys raised terrain.

here is the save turn before that one

Last edited by OneFootInTheGrave on 27-11-2001 at 23:43