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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:16
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Hi,
Korn, you said you wanted help with some graphics, so here they are. Check out this webpage:
http://apolyton.net/haven/webshots4.html
In some cases I came up with several options to choose from.
Some thoughts.
It seems to me that "Classless Society" isn't a good improvement. First off, it doesn't sound remotely like a building - I like my improvements to be solid objects. Second, classless society wasn't ever achieved under Communism, and certainly wasn't achieved on a city by city basis. So I suggest the "Collective" as a better name. I had trouble finding a good picture for it though - some kind of collectivized agriculture was the idea.
I included Prison cos there's such a need for corruption reducing buildings right now. I think the best such building available in ancient times would be the Prison. Courthouses as such didn't come until much later, and the picture reflects it. The Courthouse building in Civ3 looks way out of place until the 1700s or so.
Also, I noticed something wierd. In the game I'm playing now, its about 1000 BC, and I still am not able to build any Universities, but I can build the Newspaper already. This strikes me as very strange. Universities started popping up all over around 1100 AD, and some were much earlier than that. But Newspapers as such didn't come until much later, and certainly weren't tied to the Printing Press. You needed more than just the technology - you needed a huge literate audience, and that didn't come for several hundred more years. At the very least, a city shouldn't be able to build a Printing Press until it builds a University.
By the way, I have no idea where to go from here with these pictures. They're the right size, but beyond that, I'm sure they need to change file type and so on before they'll work in Civ3. I wonder too, how one makes icons for them.
I would prefer the Hollywood sign at night - perhaps someone can help find that one. It didn't show up at first glance. There's probably a better Prison; I was trying to be a medieval looking one, which is much harder than finding a modern one.
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Glostakarov
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York, Yorkshire, England
Feb 2000
time: 05:16
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Some general thoughts:
For my own games I made almost all the improvements give less culture per turn after I won two 'accidental' cultural victories, both in the early 1900s. I was actually going for a Conquer victory the first time, and planning to build the spaceship the second time, but topped 100k culture. The problem was in every conquered city I'd kick out a quick temple and colosseum to keep people happy. So, I lowered the culture per turn of library, university, cathedral, and research lab by one each. To make a cultural victory possible if I wanted it I added a building to each age that generalted a point of culture and did little else. You might want to consider adding them. They were:
Town Square (ancient)
Most ancient villages and towns featured a main square where business was conducted, announcements were made, news was exchanged, and people socialized. +1 culture per turn.
Tavern (middle ages)
Replaces Town Square, +2 culture per turn.
Museum (industrial age)
I was surprised there were no museums in the game, they are a symbol of culture, strengthening and defining a society's sense of cohesion by teaching people who their ancestors were, what drove their passions to create art, and what makes that art distinct from that created by other peoples. +2 culture per turn.
Television Station (modern)
Similar in logic to the Hollywood wonder someone suggested, but this could logically be built in every city. Critics may call television a degredation of culture, but it does have a powerful way of spreading messages of what is the cultural norm. I currently have this one giving +2 culture, but I think I'd like it to also make one unhappy person content and apply a -10% tax income penalty (for people wasting money on the shopping networks and advertisements convincing people to buy things they don't need).
A possible small cultural wonder would be a national museum, such as the British Museum or Le Louvre. You'd need to have museums in 5 cities to build one, and it would crank out a large amount of culture per turn.
Another improvement idea I've been kicking around is a Train Depot. These were hideously important in their day, there are historical accounts of whole towns picking up and moving all their homes and buildings so that they would be along the train tracks. This provided them with a vital link to the outside world, increasing access to luxuries and goods, opening a wider market for the goods the town produced, and providing direct revenue from the railroad itself. A stout trade and luxuries bonus would not be out of line, and the revenue would help support all these other new improvements you've been coming up with. 
On the mod itself:
I disagree with having colosseums disappear in favour of other buildings. For me, seeing the picture change to a sporting arena as I got toward the modern era clicked into place that this improvement does belong. I'm not a strong follower of any sports, but a lot of people are, and they tend to be /very/ strong fans of one team or another. This generates the culture bonus, and both the obession with the game and the time spent watching and playing it justifies the happiness bonus.
Still, nice mod! I'm looking forward to playing with more than one government being viable in the late game. A side note to an already longwinded post: when building the Forbidden Palace I choose a city of size 7 when I have 4 luxuries available. I want one that generates about 15 shields total, with 1-2 left after waste, and generates food such that it will be easy to keep it at size 7 (9 if I can get a 5th luxury). I rush buy a courthouse, trigger a Golden Age, and keep the city in celebration, which brings it up to a rate which almost finishes the wonder before the Golden Age ends (this is with default cost for the Forbidden Palace). It's a lot of work to coordinate, but works like a charm.
I find it vastly annoying that democracy corruption is based on city distance. If that were the case nothing should ever get done in California, including the production of computer games. :P The democratic model includes enough decentralization of government functions to prevent distant cities from suffering from lack of immediate access to and supervision by thos in charge, and modern communications and travel methods make those points moot anyhow.
But I'll stop ranting and rambling and post now.
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:16
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A couple random thoughts from me as well.
1. I never seem to build Walls. Why should I, when they'll just go obsolete? I recommend boosting them to 100% defense bonus.
2. Tied in with #1, size 6 is much too small for a size limit. I also never build Granaries, cos I don't really need them. Since there doesn't seem to be a way to increase the number of food a city needs to grow one, I'd say increase the change from town to city from 6 to 8. City to metropolis should also be bumped up too. Its silly to have so many cities frozen at 12 for a long time.
3. I also like Glostakarov's improvement ideas, if you need more, except the Tavern, which doesn't sound important enough. Also, having the Mill come around in the Middle Ages to boost production would also be a good one to have.
4. I don't have a strong feeling for a replacement to Classless Society, so long as there's a change!
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OneFootInTheGrave
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Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:16
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you guys never sleep 
just for the armies, if you increase the HP in bit steeper order, elite units will be much harder to beat, therefore the likeliness of getting that all important first great leader will increase. Just a thought, if you will have problems with the general unit.
If you can build the general wouldn't it make armies obsolete, (actually it wouldn't) but making him obsolete with the rifleman is kind of strange. Maybe you can just take armies out and replace them with the general?
I really like the prison idea, that would fill up the building queue at the beginning, and give us the all important corruption decrease.
For industrial ages, there could be an improvement called corporation, with 40% increase in gold for the city. (like the corporate tax at 40% ). And it could serve as another corruption decrease building if necessary.
On the last note I am for turning classless society into Politburo.
Actually... on Glostarkov's ideas. They are brilliant and this is a concept where you have to make a long term commitment to culture victory (not just an alternative, but actually making it a proper strategy). Having buildings for that purpose only is a good way to go and decreasing the default culutre buildings culture contiributions. The effect would be that you have to spend time and resourcens now on culture improvements only, and on defense I guess, that would make it a good play alternative and quite a distinct one to the domination victory (or war) in your mod. It would make a bigger difference between military oriented empires and the culturally oriented ones.
Last edited by OneFootInTheGrave on 29-11-2001 at 17:03
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:16
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quote:
Tried several versions of the mod including the last one. It crashed on me every time late in the game (1950+). |
Why don't you go ahead and post the error?
quote:
Also longbow, swordsman, cavalry etc. would never upgrade to rifleman. That was one of the mods I liked best. |
I'm glad none of those units upgrade to riflemen, because in certain ways cavalry is better than riflemen and longbowmen and swordsmen are too 'ancient' to upgrade to riflemen.
quote:
the newspaper as it is now is overpowered...i will most likely drop it's +50% to research ability, and leave its anti corruption +2 culture stats |
The problem with this is that the Printing Press sprung education into a major increase. Now, IMO, the Newspaper doesn't really reprsenet the outburst in education. Instead I propose that the improvement that falls under Printing Press should be called "Printed Works" (as in pieces of information that are printed). It would have the research ability and produce 1-2 culture per turn. This is not to say that the Newspaper shouldn't be a improvement at all, though, it's just that it should not come under Printing Press.
I really like Glostakarov's idea of having specific culture improvements and lowering the culture output of already culturally producing improvements that also have another function. This will add a lot more diversity to the game.
Adding more city names to this mod would be a very nice addition. You should think about using Sevorak's 'More City Names' mod as a guide to getting more city names (of course if Sevorak would comply with that).
I, also, like your idea for the General. Except that I think the General should become available at Warrior Code and never become obsolete. Actually to elaborate on that idea you should have the Gladiator (optional name for General) become availabe at Warrior Code and become obsolete at Nationalsim, then have the General become availabe at Nationalsim and never become obsolete. The Gladiator could create an army, cost 80 (remember production levels are low at this time), cost 1 pop (balances things out), no ZOC, and has stats of 0/0/1. The General could create an army, cost 160 (productions levels are higher), cost 0 pop (again balances things out), has ZOC, and has stats of 1/1/3. Now the General may not seem like much of an improvement over the Gladiator, but in fact it is; the General will not ever be captured (can be killed, though) and the Gladiator can be captured (not killed, though) and also the General doesn't cost any pop. Of course this idea is just right off the top of my head and will need a lot of playtesting first.
I hope you continue to come up with gov-specific improvements ideas.
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Glostakarov
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York, Yorkshire, England
Feb 2000
time: 05:16
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I've also run into the problem of running out of buildings, even in some corruption-heavy cities, so I'll suggest another.
Steel Mill (prereq Steel)
Increases production 50%. This will probably require you to increase the shield costs of industrial and modern buildings, but it makes sense and makes the Advance useful for more than getting to other advances. Tack on a citizen made unhappy too, these were sweatshops, like the factories of the time.
I like the idea of the Mill for a medieval improvement, though it will also probably require the shield costs to be increased. Personally I think the shield costs are all a bit low in the unmodified version. In my third game when I realized my cavalry wouldn't upgrade, I turned every city that was done with all its buildings over to tank production, and churned out an army of 100 units in 6 turns. That's obscene, and I didn't even have power plants yet (I wasn't building coal plants because I had Hoover Dam in production). I was still getting advances every 4 turns and 250 gold per turn at the same time I built the army. Admittedly I also had 80+ cities, but almost half were paralyzed from corruption.
Can research costs be increased for the industrial and modern advances? I haven't looked at it yet but that would balance the research increase for printing press.
Oh, also, on ships. The last sail-driven ships were actually pretty fast, much faster than the early steam driven vessels. A fully-rigged ship-of-the-line could do 25-30 knots, which is as good as modern aircraft carriers. The early ironclads, by contrast, were dead slow. The first steam engines on ships were no match for the weight of armour plating. These vessels had sails to get them to the fight, and ran on steam from there, and they still moved like a dead goat.
Ok, last thing for this post. I'd consider building airports if they had some use other than producing veteran air units and being a link in the trade chain. So far I have almost no use for air units and have run into very few situations where I can't connect my cities by other means. And anyhow, shouldn't it be an Air Base or Airforce Base to produce veteran air units? An airport is not a military installation in most places.
Cheers.
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:16
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Some thoughts.
I am very down on the General idea. Reason why is because leaders can rush wonders, as well as be for Armies. So if a General costs 150 to make, and a wonder costs 300, I'd just make the General. Not to mention, this allows a clever player to stockpile wonders, allowing one to finish a wonder the first turn its available. So even if the General cost the same as the wonder, the General would still be a better deal, for the stockpiling factor.
I'd file this into the "stuff broken that Firaxis has to fix" box. The rush and army functions should be separate choices in the editor. In the meantime, make the wonder that lowers the odds of getting a leader come cheap and early, so everyone can get it.
I'd also worry about having too many buildings. Many nice suggestions here, but they can't all be implemented - don't go overboard. I've also run into the no useful buildings left to build problem (though part of that is cos some buildings, like Wall and Granary as I mentioned before, are not worth the cost of building). Speaking of building costs, has anyone done a cost/benefit analysis to determine how productive a city should be before you should build a particular building? For instance, given the initial cost plus per turn cost, some buildings shouldn't be built in highly corrupt cities, but just how corrupt is too much?
That said, I've mentioned elsewhere that the veteran producing status of Airports and Ports should be separated from the economic benefits. This forces the player to think military or economic, instead of having the cake and eating it too. Glad to see Glostakarov also has this idea at least as far as Airports go.
I also second the thought that modern things need to get more expensive, as well as more useful. This should make up for an increase in productivity. Civs that have all the advances (as most civs do - no one ever falls too far behind in Civ3) but lack the infrastructure will start to feel the heat in the Industrial Age and beyond.
Korn,
Do you need any more improvement graphics, and which ones will you be using for the ones in the game already? How does one make icons for these things?
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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francoImpaler
when the game crahed what exactly happened? was it a hang up without the game closing down or was it an illegal operation or was it something else?
did rename the infantry.ini to partisan.ini in the partisan unit folder you created right?
did u download v1.04b with the fascist name update?
if you all of that, then a short description of what caused the crashed along with a savegame would be great!
additionally as long as you have your units in a city with a barracks the units DO upgrade,
all infantry units eventually goto riflemen, and all horse units eventually goto tanks, i know for a fact that warriors will upgrade to riflemen for a cost of 100 gold (that might be too low but i can't change the upgrade cost modifier)
Harlan
quote:
I'd file this into the "stuff broken that Firaxis has to fix" box. The rush and army functions should be separate choices in the editor. |
they are, right now in the editor, under units is a category called Special Actions, right below Airdrop is two boxes one is Build Army, the other is Finish Improvement, so all generals could do is build armies, leaders have both boxes marked, but i certainly wasn't planning on allowing generals to finish improvements
also harlan i have no idea of how to make a .pcx file yet, graphics certainly are important, but gameplay is my first consideration, and i haven't even came close to making all of the gameplay changes i want to, so unless i can find a graphics helper, they will come later
TechWins and OneFootInTheGrave
more about the general
i want armies to be very important in my mod unlike in normal civ3, that is why i have reduced the cost, and given them blitz, i still like the idea of only being able to build armies in the city with the military academy, but from my testing it appears hardcoded to only appear after you have gotten a win with an army (and have discovered military tradition) so if you follow a fairly peaceful route you might not get a great leader in game, and thereby never be able to build the military academy...i want to give the play a method of getting around this, but not destroy the imporance of a military academy by allowing armies (through generals) to be built in every city
also the pentagon is hardcoded not to appear until you have three or four armies in the field (i don't remember which it is right off the top of my head) so i don't want to have hundreds of armies running around in the ancient era, but i don't want to make it basically impossible for anything but total warmonger to ever get a chance of building the military academy, so that is my thoughts behind it
Glostakarov
instead of the name town square, how about the Forum or something to that effect?
quote:
Oh, also, on ships. The last sail-driven ships were actually pretty fast, much faster than the early steam driven vessels. A fully-rigged ship-of-the-line could do 25-30 knots, which is as good as modern aircraft carriers. The early ironclads, by contrast, were dead slow. The first steam engines on ships were no match for the weight of armour plating. |
well here is my view on units, i think that all units are a fairly large group of units (larger than a company smaller than a division) that represent a span of units, so for example an infantry unit to me covers from about the late 1890's up to the mid 1960's, with a little overlap with both the rifleman and mechanized infantry, and that units are an overall average of all units in their category both from the begining to the end, and that all actions are on the operational level spanning a long period of sustained operations...so although humans as a species might not move any faster today, foot soldiers will operate much more efficiently just because of modern combat boots and MREs (meal ready to eat aka modern rations) much less communications advances, GPS systems, night vision etc...so a comparison of the best sailing warships to the earliest ironclads isn't exactly what i was thinking of when assigning stats
ok but general ideas i've picked up from all of the replies
*more seperation between military and trade buildings
*lessen culture of all buildings
*balance that by adding in culture only buildings
*give each era a broaden range of buildings
*more government specific buildings and wonders
because of all of the building discussion i think i am going to look at them a little more in depth and then move from their
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Glostakarov
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York, Yorkshire, England
Feb 2000
time: 05:16
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quote:
Originally posted by korn469
Glostakarov
instead of the name town square, how about the Forum or something to that effect? |
Works for me.
quote:
Originally posted by korn469
well here is my view on units, i think that all units are a fairly large group of units (larger than a company smaller than a division) that represent a span of units, so for example an infantry unit to me covers from about the late 1890's up to the mid 1960's, with a little overlap with both the rifleman and mechanized infantry, and that units are an overall average of all units in their category both from the begining to the end, and that all actions are on the operational level spanning a long period of sustained operations...so although humans as a species might not move any faster today, foot soldiers will operate much more efficiently just because of modern combat boots and MREs (meal ready to eat aka modern rations) much less communications advances, GPS systems, night vision etc...so a comparison of the best sailing warships to the earliest ironclads isn't exactly what i was thinking of when assigning stats
ok but general ideas i've picked up from all of the replies
*more seperation between military and trade buildings
*lessen culture of all buildings
*balance that by adding in culture only buildings
*give each era a broaden range of buildings
*more government specific buildings and wonders
because of all of the building discussion i think i am going to look at them a little more in depth and then move from their |
Fair enough, and good summary. Something that occurred to me while trying to make distant cities productive, it would probably be appropriate for temples to reduce corruption in the ancient and medieval ages (at least). Of course, the church wasn't always free of waste/corruption itself, but I'd say overall it had a positive affect, especially when a much higher percentage of the population had strong religous beliefs. I can't imagine the building could be made to just lose that one ability at a certain tech though, and a third religious building might be going overboard, so just ignore me.
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lockstep
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Vienna, Austria
Aug 2001
time: 06:16
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I didnīt test your mod until now because I still need to learn the details of the original game version. Therefore I donīt want to comment extensively on the 'tweaking' of unit stats; however, I have some general thoughts regarding your changes to the game.
Ideas I strongly agree with (read: that should be part of a future 'standard Apolyton modpack' if there will be one):- Moderate increase of the movement rates of naval units (as in version 1.0 of your mod);
- Ability to upgrade for units like swordsman, longbowman, cavalry etc.;
- Addition of a Fascist government (trade bonus, no war weariness, nuisance corruption);
- Possibility to build armies (not to rush wonders) without a leader.
Ideas I find interesting, but that may be unbalancing or otherwise problematic:- More productive specialists. Even if tax collectors and scientists are next to useless now, I donīt want the return of Civ2īs specialist cities (where specialists are more productive than working the city radius) as a viable strategy. Weīll have to see how the first patch deals with corruption.
- Raised unit support cost for certain governments. IMO, this has to be playtested extensively (but you already seem to have started to do so ).
- Additional buildings (newspaper, museum, mill etc.). While there may be good reasons for each suggestion, there is a small line between interesting variation (a la Civ2 with about 30 buildings) and annoying repletion (a la CtP2 with about 50 buildings). Yes, re-introducing the stock market as a third tax-increasing building could be nice, but then what would be the point of the 'Wall Street' small wonder?
Ideas I disagree with:- The Obelisk (culture-only building, gives +2 culture, requires the Pyramids, Pyramids put an Obelisk in every city). IMO, one of Civ3īs design principles is that you can hurt a rivalīs culture through waging war and conquering/razing his cities, but you canīt improve your own culture (because culture buildings are destroyed when a city 'changes sides'). With your mod, conquering the city that has built the Pyramides will vastly improve your culture rating in the long run.
- Negative culture for certain buildings/wonders. Factories, Coal Plants etc. already have pollution as a major downside, and a decrease in culture is a needless double penalty IMO. Moreover, I donīt like the (theoretical) possibility that a city may have a negative culture rating. Would that cause its influence border to shrink? Would a negative rating even be displayed in the cultural advisor screen?
- Government-specific buildings (as opposed to wonders). While it may be interesting to split the colosseum into a 'Movie Theater' (for Democracy), a 'Propagandy Ministry' (for Fascism) and a 'Classless Society' (for Communism), I donīt see a game-mechanism yet that would prevent me from building all these buildings in each city (using tactical government-switching) and therefore gaining a +9 happiness increase. (The editor has only one flag called 'replaces all improvements with this flag checked', and it is used for the different power plants.) IMO, this is very unbalancing.
- Universities making citizens unhappy. Whereīs the gameplay reason for this? If you feel universities are too powerfull, I suggest to increase their costs.
Regarding air combat and corruption, Iīm quite sure the first patch will adress these issues, so you can change your mod accordingly.
BTW, please donīt overrate my lengthy criticism. Iīm glad that mods like this one are being developed, and Civ3 will surely become an even better game in the long run also because of your work.
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OneFootInTheGrave
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Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:16
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After a little effort I came up with 5 governmetal traits so to say.
I will list them here and perhaps we can use them to give us some perspective on that in the gameplay terms
Age------ancient--------medieval----------industrial--------modern
Type---(to 500AD)-----(500-800)--------1800- 1920's----1920's on
1.---Despotism----------Tyranny----------Dictatorship------Fascism
2.---Monarchy------Feudal Monarchy **--Proleterian---Communism
------------------------------------------Commune***
3.---Theocracy--------Theocracy----------Theocracy--Fundamentalism
4.---Republic---------Constitutional**----Democracy-----Democracy
------------------------Monarchy
5.---City State*------Unitarian **---------Democracy-------Socialist
---------------------Monarchy----------------------------Democracy
I hope this alligns OK, but basically I have put forward 5 types of governments that have dinstinct traits. Three of these traits would go under monarchy style and two of them in the democratic style.
I have not read this anywhere so the table is quite subjective, but it could serve a purpose.
The swing in the table would go from 1 .Totalitarian control by one individual to 5 with people controlled governments, and moving trough the ages. (Ie what was the peoples response to the government style in certain age).
.
Neverheless how to use this in Civ III.
I would propose a system were certain gov. attributes are getting changed in regards to the age the gov. is from and in which part of gov. spectrum they are from.
Well if we are looking to fill in the gap, I think that in style 1 goverments people were generally unhappy, corruption high, low food, without war these governments would generally collapse, or they would cause quite a lot of unhappiness but good production for the age. Style 3 gov, is the most happy one, good at war , with lower production medium corruption, food. Style 5 are more unhappy again, especially at the time of war. But style 5 gov is most economically/ scientifically advanced, lowest corruption for the age they are from, and high production, food.
The goverments that we got with Civ III are Despotism, Monarchy, Republic, Democracy, Communism. (I hope I didn't miss any)
So basically we get 3 from monarchy traits, and 2 with democratic traits.
You have already added Fascism, that would be for me at least modern equivalent of despotism.
What we miss (as I don't think we need more here yet) as you pointed out is some form of Medieval Monarchy. From here I would give it the stats of bettered monarchy, the problem is where would we fit it in the civ III tech tree, which seems to me gives all the govs in fairly short period, (monarchy and republic are 5th advances both, and democracy comes 6th in medieval times.
I think that some government differentiation would be very welcome, but tech tree should be changed to make an early medieval monarchy useful and different. Civ III tech tree does not seem to be very good anyway.
Just for a proposal if you want to get into this
1. move monarchy to tech # 4. kick out polytheism. maybe give a bit more despotism feel to it, (lower some stats, but not the food penalty, since it is quite strong with present attributes.
2. make literature requirement for the republic, to make a time span between the two a bit bigger.
3. give feudalism the government - Feudal monarchy, and provide it with fairly good stats, a good choice to republic, maybe republic could be a bit stronger in trade/ corruption, and feudal monarchy a bit stronger in war/happiness(like 4 units make people happy) since most of the world was a monarchy still in 1800's.
I think that would be quite fair. I would prefer moving democracy a bit furher down the list to a first advance in the industrial ages, like a prerequisite to nationalism, therefore you could get free artistry straight from printing press wich is OK too. And make banking lead straight to economics. That move would give a further boost to scientific civs (get democracy straight at the beginning of the age without waiting), which I'd say is desireable too. That would make fascism (it comes after nationalism too I hope) and communism kind of a response to democracy on the tech tree.
Anyway this is my take on governments. (actually I would like to add socialist democracy, to get some democratic choice in the game, in modern age but I am not sure that you (Korn) are interested to go in that direction). Pleas feel free to add to/ use the table above, but that could be a basis for a mod on its own, where government attributes would be the key to make significant differences between the ages, contrary to the way civ III plays now. But that might just wait for another time.
just some explanations below
*city state (Harlans CTP idea) represents ancient Greek style gov.
** three different monarchy types would represent the kinds of rule that developed in medieval times...
constitutional -UK type, with a parliament,
unitarian - Habsburg monarchy type where the king was the king of all the kingdoms under him and they are united trough him (needed good diplomacy and making sure that subdued kingdoms are kept happy),
feudal - french, russian and most common type, king does almost all that he wants
*** that would represent all the brief 'commoner' contolled governments like the French Paris Commune, and basically states which either collapsed, or were turned after a few years into communism.
the rest are familiar I guess, some names are here just to differentiate between the ages.
Last edited by OneFootInTheGrave on 30-11-2001 at 23:25
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Glostakarov
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York, Yorkshire, England
Feb 2000
time: 05:16
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A couple thoughts from my last unmodified game:
Trying for a conquest victory I found myself unable to win because the Russians were somehow alive with no cities and no units that I could find. Doubt there is anything we can do about this, but maybe some Firaxis people will see it.
If I tinker with the 'optimal number of cities for corruption' setting, how exactly does it affect my corruption? My last game I ended with nearly 200 cities in a large (not huge) map, where the 'optimal' number is 24. With decent placement of my capital and forbidden palace I had about half those cities producing at acceptable levels of corruption under Democracy.
Blitz on armies will be so welcome. I tinkered around with armies just to see what could be done, and found them to be almost worthless because they could only attack once. I did make good use of a few armies of defensive units (infantry, etc.) since frequency of attack makes no difference there.
I'm almost going to miss being unable to upgrade cavalry. I discovered that having 50odd spare cavalry around is a great way to rush production in newly conquered cities. You can't buy a production rush in a resisting city, but you can disband a cavalry for 20 shields, and before you know it you have a temple and courthouse in every new city.
Manufacturing Plants are worthless, they come way too far down the tech tree to be useful. I have yet to build one, because if I can't produce well enough by the time I have access to them, I'm in trouble. I haven't bothered with nuclear power plants either; with careful planning I had 6 cities that could produce one-turn modern armour. What more do I need? I don't think I really need to produce Longevity in 5 turns (I did it in 8).
Mechanized Infantry are of dubious usefulness at the default stats. At 12/18/3 (the manual incorrectly says 12/20/3) their defense is only 2 better than modern armour's 24/16/3, a difference of about 12%. When modern armour became available I started rush building with my mech inf (37 shields each) and replacing them with modern armour. I didn't feel the lack, so I think Mech Inf need a boost, combined arms kind of falls apart in the modern age. That or maybe a mid/late modern age unit to replace it.
War weariness under democracy wasn't half as bad as I'd been led to believe. In fact, it only seems to cause problems in cities filled with citizens ethnically of the civ you are attacking. All that means is I have to be thorough about wiping out the enemy. That and a blitz offensive, taking several cities in rapid succession, then obtaining peace, is the only way to go. Also, letting the new cities starve for a few turns then grow rapidly loads them up with citizens of my nationality and solves the problem for when I continue blitzing. I felt so good about finding a use for grainaries.
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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TechWins
save games don't like when you add new buildings, you can mod them once they are in the game adding them causes savegames to short circuit, little did i realize that it would allow so many stuctures in the game
but i fixed it
anyways why are you against roads providing a +1 to commerce in tundra? why not tundra, desert, mountains, hills, jungle, and forest? why only tundra? 
but i worked around the problem of too many police stations and United nations
(they now come with intergrated defense, require 25 obelisks, and the government anarchy)
Confederation is an alternative to despotism (ie weaker than monarchy/republic), but communal corruption is supposed to be a flat rate of corruption across your empire, it doesn't seem to work like that at all 
Glostakarov
the one thing i took most from your thread was the effectiveness of modern armor and in 1.05b i decreased their defense to 12
so here is 1.05b
hope that works better
 Attachment: blitz1.05c.zip
This has been downloaded 635 time(s).
Last edited by korn469 on 03-12-2001 at 07:10
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lockstep
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Vienna, Austria
Aug 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by korn469
Confederation is an alternative to despotism (ie weaker than monarchy/republic), but communal corruption is supposed to be a flat rate of corruption across your empire, it doesn't seem to work like that at all |
If communal corruption really is broken at the moment and needs to be patched, thereīs no point in adding governments that use this feature (or tweaking existing ones like Communism). I suggest to deal with the whole government issue only after the first patch - leave Fascism as it is now, but donīt tweak anything any further.
I generally like the additional city buildings, but have some comments:- The idea that the mill is replaced with any of the later power plants (i.e. becomes obsolete) is interesting but doesnīt really fit in the Civ3 scheme. Marketplaces may as well be replaced with more powerfull banks, temples with cathedrals etc.. I suggest to keep mills in the later game and to give factories only a production bonus of 25% instead.
- If you add the forum as the 'culture-only' building of the ancient age, let the Pyramides provide a forum in every city on the same continent (and drop the Obelisk). Looking at the stats, forums do exactly what Obelisks do, and this would allow a player who didnīt manage to build the Pyramides to 'catch up' cultur-wise, but at higher costs. (Another Civ3 design principle IMO.)
- About the laboratory ... Iīd say four research buildings are overkill. Even the name 'laboratory' reminds me of 'research lab'.
Generally, you should verify if there is a limit to the number of improvements and wonders that the city view will display and if exceeding that limit would cause the game to crash. (Gramphos seems to be an expert regarding these issues, so maybe he knows.) If you hit a crucial limit with your mod, I suggest to generalize the power plants in the game (how, I have no idea at the moment) and thus gain two or three improvement slots.
P.S.: I have to agree with Glostakarov that manufacturing plants are available too late to be of any use.
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:16
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Ok well that's good.
quote:
anyways why are you against roads providing a +1 to commerce in tundra? why not tundra, desert, mountains, hills, jungle, and forest? why only tundra? |
The reason for that is because in real life tundra is virtually useless, whereas those other terrains you mentioned people have been able to excell/prosper in their respective terrain. Also, taking away the trade bonus for tundra will hopefully scare the AI away more from building in tundra. I know when I play my games with tundra lacking the trade bonus it seems as if less AI cities are in tundra, or it might just be a coincidence.
quote:
Confederation is an alternative to despotism (ie weaker than monarchy/republic), but communal corruption is supposed to be a flat rate of corruption across your empire, it doesn't seem to work like that at all |
Yes, I know that it is an alternative to Despotims, but I still feel that it is too weak. Mainly because I thought 'communal' was the worst corruption level to have. Although, since 'communal' doesn't function properly (as you say). I think I agree with Lockstep, if 'communal' doesn't work, then you might as well disband any of thought of adding a gov. that has a 'communal' corruption level. What have you noticed in terms of Communism with the 'communal' rating, though?
Regarding Lockstep's three bullet points:
1) ASFAIK, the Factory can't give off a 25% production bonus, so the mill will have to be upgraded to the Factory. Regardless of their being a 25% production bonus I would still rather have the mill upgrade to the Factory.
2) I completely agree with everything.
3) I really don't have an opinion on the issue.
I think you should change the town limit from 6 to 8 and the city from 12 to 14, as somebody else stated before, as well.
The added hitpoints seems to really help combat out a lot, so please don't change the hitpoints for the units.
I really like the way the General fits into the game.
The added culture buildings along with the decrease in already culturally producing buildings (that also have another function) seems to very nicely.
Updating the Civilopedia more efficiently (if the editor will allow it) would be a plus. It seems as if you added cons/pictures for a improvements, or is this just me?
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lockstep
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Vienna, Austria
Aug 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by TechWins
1) ASFAIK, the Factory can't give off a 25% production bonus, so the mill will have to be upgraded to the Factory. Regardless of their being a 25% production bonus I would still rather have the mill upgrade to the Factory. |
I re-checked the editor, and there is no simple flag called '+50% production output' (different from research, luxuries and tax). Instead, you can adjust it 'whole-numbered', and the factory (for which the manual states a 50% output increase) features the figure '2'. So '1' (the figure that Korn choose for the mill, BTW) should be a 25% increase.
Anyhow, itīs somewhat strange that the mill not only gets obsolete, but does so with the next-but-one production-boosting buildings (the power plants). Ítīs like the marketplace would get obsolete with the (added) stock exchange.
quote:
2) I completely agree with everything. |
Thanks for the 'anti-Obelisk' support. 
quote:
3) I really don't have an opinion on the issue. |
About the 'four-buildings-of-the-same-type'-issue ... Itīs just a personal preference, but I liked the way how the original civ mostly got by with two buildings of the same type (e.g. marketplace/bank, library/university etc.) Civ2 added more 'level three' buildings (stock exchange, research lab), and Civ3 took away again some of them (stock exchange) and replaced their function with small wonders (Wall Street). Iīd say, at least donīt add 'level four' buildings.
A small inconsistency I didnīt note until now: There are three 'culture-only' buildings (forum, theater, museum), and the 'happiness' and 'research' buildings also yield a (reduced) amount of culture. The courthouse and the police station, which now both reduce corruption, donīt yield culture (IMO correctly), but the newspaper does. Iīd suggest to drop this feature and instead add the flag 'resistant to propaganda' to the newspaper (this seems more consequential than for the courthouse, which features this flag now).
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29-11-2001 10:55
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