12-01-2002 02:52									#211
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by korn469 so you want some kind of resource bonus for the jungle? find a mod that has this and i'll co-opt it(with credit of course)

Just talk to Velociryx ... perhaps he cares to trade notes ...

	12-01-2002 06:42									#212
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Quick info from my next test game: The AI apparently cannot cope with wheeled settlers. I managed to cross a sea area 4 tiles wide with a galley and made contact with the Indians. They are alone on a large island / small continent with room for about a dozen cities, but have only founded three so far. These cities are situated in the south of their island, with some mountains to the north and jungle areas to the east and west. No Indian settler seems to have crossed this invisible border. Without any decent production base and any contact to other civs (but me, recently), the Indians have not researched map making until now either and therefore don't have the option to load settlers on a galley and sail around the jungle area to the decent city sites in the north.

BTW, did you know that if one wants to move a settler from a grassland tile to a jungle tile, both tiles must have roads? I didn't, and I guess the AI doesn't know either.

	12-01-2002 07:08									#213
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: BTW, did you know that if one wants to move a settler from a grassland tile to a jungle tile, both tiles must have roads? I didn't, and I guess the AI doesn't know either.

hehe yea i knew this

btw could u send me the save game?

	12-01-2002 08:21									#214
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Sure.

Attachment: cleopatra of the egyptians, 1000 ad.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	12-01-2002 13:03									#215
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

lockstep

i looked at your save game, and yes it does appear that under certain circumstances that a player (especially the AI) will get bottled in because of territory; however in most cases this won't have a crippling effect on the player so unless this happens quite often i think its ok for now

i am planning on trying to get beta5 out sunday evening, anyways here is more of the read me to look under the hood with, notice that i changed barbarians from warriors/horsemen to swordmen/knights along with decreasing the attack bonus against barbarians this taken with slower expansion should mean that barbarians can actually be a speed bump instead of a cash cow

General Settings Changes
*Future Tech Cost now 500
*Minimum Research Time now 2 turns
*Maximum Research Time now 50 turns
*Cities Needed to Support an Army now 2
*Chance to Intercept Enemy Air Missions now 90%
*Chance to Intercept Enemy Stealth Missions now 9%
*Citizen Defensive Bonus now 16
*Building Defensive Bonus now 16
*Basic Barbarian is now a Swordsman
*Advanced Barbarian is now a Knight
*Barbarian Sea Unit now Privateer

Changes to Citizens
*Scientist now provides 3 research and comes with Education
*Tax Collector now provides 3 taxes and comes with Gunpowder

Changes to Civilizations
*Implemented Sevorak's More City Names Mod
*Changed colors for many civs

Changes to Civilization Advances
*Increased cost of all Industrial and Modern Age techs by 10%

Changes to Culture
*In awe of
Culture Ratio 4:1
Chance of Successful Propaganda 40%
Initial Resistance Chance 35%
Continued Resistance Chance 25%
*Admirers of
Culture Ratio 3:1
Chance of Successful Propaganda 30%
Initial Resistance Chance 45%
Continued Resistance Chance 35%
*Impressed with
Culture Ratio 2:1
Chance of Successful Propaganda 25%
Initial Resistance Chance 60%
Continued Resistance Chance 50%
*Unimpressed with
Culture Ratio 1:2
Chance of Successful Propaganda 15%
Initial Resistance Chance 80%
Continued Resistance Chance 70%
*Dismissive of
Culture Ratio 1:3
Chance of Successful Propaganda 10%
Initial Resistance Chance 90%
Continued Resistance Chance 80%
*Disdainful of
Culture Ratio 1:4
Chance of Successful Propaganda 5%
Initial Resistance Chance 95%
Continued Resistance Chance 90%

Changes to Difficulty Level
*Cheiftain
Number of Citizens born content 5
Attack bonus vs. Barbarians 500%
*Warlord
Attack bonus vs. Barbarians 50%
Percentage of optimal cities 100%
*Regent
Attack bonus vs. Barbarians 0%
Percentage of optimal cities 100%
*Monarch
Attack bonus vs. Barbarians 0%
*Emperor
Addition Free Support 10
Attack bonus vs. Barbarians 0%
*Deity
Number of Start Unit type 1: 2
Number of Start Unit type 2: 3
Addition Free Support 20
Bonus for each city 5
Max government transition time 1
Cost factor 5

Changes to Diplomats and Spies
*Build an Embassy cost 15
*Investigate City cost 7
*Steal Technology cost 9
*Steal World Map cost 1
*Plant Spy cost 45
*Steal Plans cost 7
*Initiate Propaganda cost 80
*Sabotage Production cost 8
*Expose Enemy Mole cost 60

Changes to World Sizes
*Tiny
Optimal cities 16
Tech Rate 75
*Small
Optimal cities 20
Tech Rate 115
*Standard
Optimal cities 24
Tech Rate 150
*Large
Optimal cities 32
Tech Rate 225
*Huge
Optimal cities 40
Tech Rate 300

Changes to Worker Jobs
fortress 6
railroad 15
clear pollution 30

	12-01-2002 16:43									#216
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Just a request for the 1.06 readme: Please include the original figures/settings whenever you change something, i.e. 'Cities Needed to Support an Army now 2 instead of 4'.

	12-01-2002 21:34									#217
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

lockstep

now you tell me!
actually this was a dirty little secret of mine, but the thing is many of the changes were done one night back when Apolyton was on the old servers and was having problems so i made the entire readme with all of the changes and when i hit submit i lost it all
so i remember what i changed not what i changed it from, however i have an untouched version of the original civ3mod.bic so in the final readme i'll go back and compare the two and tell what i changed from, but for now i'm just putting in the changes

have you been able to play anymore today? also this is just out of my own curiosity, i'm -5 GMT (eastern standard time) how about you?

	12-01-2002 23:01									#218
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

hmmm for some strange reason the game is crashing every time i i goto the middle ages

here is the crash data

quote: CIVILIZATION3 caused an invalid page fault in module CIVILIZATION3.EXE at 016f:0054b750. Registers: EAX=00641eb4 CS=016f EIP=0054b750 EFLGS=00010216 EBX=00642200 SS=0177 ESP=00abf448 EBP=00000040 ECX=00000000 DS=0177 ESI=00641c40 FS=5247 EDX=00000000 ES=0177 EDI=00641eb4 GS=0000 Bytes at CS:EIP: 8b 41 08 56 85 c0 74 09 b8 18 00 00 00 5e c2 10 Stack dump: 004ba8da 00641eb4 0000000f 0000000f 00000000 00875764 00641c40 0055885e 00875764 00641c40 006422d0 bfe162b4 0064c7f4 0054dc0c 00875764 bfe162b4

any ideas or anyone else experiancing a crash like this? it almost seems that selecting fuedalism causes the crash, but i don't know why it would

	13-01-2002 00:19									#219
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by korn469 lockstep have you been able to play anymore today? also this is just out of my own curiosity, i'm -5 GMT (eastern standard time) how about you?

I'm GMT +1. (Take a look at the times I posted today and you'll notice my dirty little secret. )

Yes, I continued my previous game and have reached the late Industrial age. Took a break then because the game became somewhat tedious. Later I'm gonna force a revolution, switch to all available governments (7) for testing purposes and compare the stats (commerce, corruption, supported units etc.). BTW, I have 26 cities at the moment which is quite more then the original no. of optimal cities for a standard map, and corruption is still just a nuisance for a Democracy (13% overall, 70% in the last city I captured). I'd really like to know the details of the corruption formula.

quote: i looked at your save game, and yes it does appear that under certain circumstances that a player (especially the AI) will get bottled in because of territory; however in most cases this won't have a crippling effect on the player so unless this happens quite often i think its ok for now

I respectfully disagree. If the AI gets bottled in like the Indians in my test game, it's doomed for sure. Also, this happened in my third game with the 1.06 beta, and I quit a game before because I was 'nearly' bottled in (the peninsula situation I talked about). I suspect that effects like these would be quite common.

However, I may have some good news for wheeled settlers. First, as I noticed in my third game when I made contact with the civs at the other continent, the missing ability for settlers to cross mountain chains and jungles seems to make for a very 'natural' empire expansion - the borders of the different empires at least slightly resembled geograpy. I already started to like this feature of your mod, but then remembered the pathetic Indians' fate. Second, while the AI obviously has no idea how benificial roads can be if you face nothing but jungle, it definitely knows how to race to yet-to-be city sites by loading settlers on galleys. The Indians just couldn't build galleys because they were so backward. But what if they could have built a primitive, slow ship capable of transporting a settler ... a 0/1/2 sea unit available right at the start ... a coracle ?

Seriously, while one can argue if coracles are an important addition to Civ3 or rather 'fluff' stuff, in combination with wheeled settler they are a must. That is, if the AI would use coracles to counter a problematic starting position. This needs to be tested, but I'm optimistic.

quote: any ideas or anyone else experiancing a crash like this? it almost seems that selecting fuedalism causes the crash, but i don't know why it would

FYI, selecting feudalism never caused a problem in my games.

	13-01-2002 20:10									#220
	Full PM-box? Change here!

lockstep

quote: Yes, I continued my previous game and have reached the late Industrial age. Took a break then because the game became somewhat tedious. Later I'm gonna force a revolution, switch to all available governments (7) for testing purposes and compare the stats (commerce, corruption, supported units etc.). BTW, I have 26 cities at the moment which is quite more then the original no. of optimal cities for a standard map, and corruption is still just a nuisance for a Democracy (13% overall, 70% in the last city I captured). I'd really like to know the details of the corruption formula.

i'm sorry to hear about the game bogging down into tediousness, could you please describe what exactly what made the game feel boring? any thoughts on what could be done to relieve it? additionally have you seen the AI use armies, and do you find that you are using more armies than before?

as for the corruption formula, it is effected by map size (sets the number of optimal cities), difficulty level (sets the percentage of optimal cities, government (sets corruption level), number of cities (if over the optimal number then it causes corruption), and distance (determines corruption)

as far as the coracle, i agree with you on principle that there needs to be a naval unit that doesn't have any requirements, but i am not sure how to implement it yet because map making takes four techs to get to (or two techs for the english)

so we could do the following

*add a ship in the 0.0.1|1 to the 0.1.2|1 range that cost 10 shields and doesn't require any tech (this is what i'm leaning towards)
*reduce galley movement to 2 and remove its tech requirement
*simply remove the galley's tech requirement

i haven't figured out the crash yet

i'm looking forward to your testing

Also i am begining to think that the entire tech tree might need an overhaul because it is quite unsatisfactory, but i'm unsure about this for various reasons, and this is a future change, certainly not something for v1.06

also the unit resource model needs some tweaks at least in the industrial and modern ages

Modern
Stealth Bomber 3 resources
Stealth Fighter 3 resources
Modern Armor 3 resources
ICBM 3 resources
Tactical Nuke 2 resources
Aegis Cruiser 2 resources
Nuclear Sub 2 resources
Mech Infantry 2 resources
Jet Fighter 2 resources
Radar Artillary 2 resources

Industrial
Battleship 3 resources
Carrier 3 resources? (possibly 2)
Tank 2 resources
Sub 2 resources
Destroyer 2 resources
Bomber 2 resources
Fighter 2 resources
Helicopter 2 resources
Ironclad 2resources
Paratrooper 2 resources
Marine 1 resource
Infantry 1 resource?
Artillary 1 resource? (though this brings up some interesting restrictions)
Riflemen none
Partisans none

plus i also think i'm going to bump up the infantry units attack to 20 (8 before the stat increase) because if the AI could properly handle that then it would change the dynamics of industrial age warfare somewhat (tanks would either have to stay on the offensive or risk a great chance of effective counter attacks)

Also i need to recheck the buildings before i post there stats, but here is how each building fits into the game (the * means i added that building)

Capital
Palace

Happiness
Temple
Colosseum
Cathedral

Economic
Market Place
Bank
*Stock Exchange

Trade
Harbor
Air Port

Military
Walls
Coastal Fortress
Barracks
*Port Facility
*Airforce Installation

Production
*Mill
Factory
Manufactoring Facility
Coal Plant
Hydro Plant
Solar Plant
Nuclear Plant

Research
Library
University
*Public School
Research Lab

Corruption
Courthouse
*Newspaper
Police Station

Growth
Granary
Aqueduct
Hospital

Pollution
Mass Transit
Recycling Center

Cultural
*Forum
*Theater
*Museum

	13-01-2002 22:00									#221
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by korn469 i'm sorry to hear about the game bogging down into tediousness, could you please describe what exactly what made the game feel boring? any thoughts on what could be done to relieve it? additionally have you seen the AI use armies, and do you find that you are using more armies than before?

It became tedious to give orders to 26 individual cities to add the next building in the build queue, but this is a general problem of Civ3, not of your mod. (I use the domestic advisor screen to to this - maybe there's some efficient way I haven't figured out yet to pre-define three or four different build queues.) Anyway, the additional buildings fit nicely in the game, I'd just get rid of the public school (science building no. 4).

I haven't seen AI armies in my test games. I built my first army after i had finished the military academy and loaded it with 3 knights, but haven't used it so far. (I probably will, if only for testing purposes - how often will it be able to attack per turn?)

quote: as far as the coracle, i agree with you on principle that there needs to be a naval unit that doesn't have any requirements, but i am not sure how to implement it yet because map making takes four techs to get to (or two techs for the english) so we could do the following *add a ship in the 0.0.1|1 to the 0.1.2|1 range that cost 10 shields and doesn't require any tech (this is what i'm leaning towards)

Also my favourite choice, provided you can add some decent graphics in the long run. Regarding the stats, 0/1/1 seems the best choice to me (slow enough to make galleys still worthwile, defense value so the coracle cannot be captured by AI privateers).

quote: *reduce galley movement to 2 and remove its tech requirement

Also okay with me.

quote: *simply remove the galley's tech requirement

IMO, this makes early contact with some neighbouring civs too easy.

quote: i'm looking forward to your testing Also i am begining to think that the entire tech tree might need an overhaul because it is quite unsatisfactory, but i'm unsure about this for various reasons, and this is a future change, certainly not something for v1.06

After finishing my tests regarding government stats and army blitz ability, I'll probably wait for the beta5 version to start a new game. And yes, the tech tree needs to be tweaked (especially for the modern area), but not in v1.06.

	14-01-2002 03:37									#222
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by korn469 armies move as fast as their slowest unit, and only if the army contains (only?) units with blitz will it actually have blitz...so while an army of knights won't have blitz, an army of modern armor/mech infantry should have it

I built an army and loaded it with 3 calvalry units (who, also in your mod, don't have the ability to blitz). However, I was able to attack with this army two times per turn. As the army retreated after the first attack and had only one movement point left, this corresponds to the cavalry's movement rate of 3. Apparently a cavalry army has blitz!

Savegame is enclosed. The army is loaded on a transport; move it to the continent to the west and attack an American city.

	14-01-2002 12:44									#223
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

beta 5 is up

its getting there

i will post better responces tommorrow

	15-01-2002 03:25									#224
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Changes to Improvements and Wonders

Improvements
Capital
Palace 100/1/0 Center of Empire, +25% defense

Happiness
Temple 60/1/1 +1 Happy (Religious)
Colosseum 120/1/2 +2 Happy
Cathedral 160/2/2 +3 Happy [Temple] (Religious)

Economic
Marketplace 100/0/1 +50% Tax Output, Increases Luxury Trade (Commercial)
Bank 160/0/3 +50% Tax Output [Marketplace] (Commercial)
*Stock Exchange 200/0/4 +50% Tax Output [Bank] (Commercial) The Corporation

Trade
Harbor 80/0/1 Allows Water Trade, Increases Food in Water (Commercial, Coastal)
Air Port 160/0/2 Allows Air Trade, 1 Pollution {Oil} (Commercial)

Military
Walls 20/0/0 +50% Defense, 12 Bombard Defense (Militaristic)
Coastal Fortress 40/0/1 16 Naval Power, 12 Naval Bombard Defense {Iron, Saltpeter} (Militaristic, Coastal)
Barracks 80/0/1 Veteran Ground Units (Militaristic) Warrior Code
*Port Facility 120/0/2 Veteran Sea Units [Harbor] (Militaristic, Coastal) Astronomy
*Airforce Installation 160/0/3 Veteran Air Units [Airport] {Oil} (Militaristic) Flight

Production
*Mill 160/0/2 +25% Production, Must be Near a River; Engineering
Factory 240/0/4 +50% Production, 2 Pollution {Iron}
Manufactoring Plant 320/0/5 +50% Production, 1 Pollution [Factory] {Aluminum}
Coal Plant 160/0/4 +50% Production, 3 Pollution [Factory] {Coal}
Hydro Plant 240/0/4 +50% Production, Must be Near a River [Factory] {Iron}
Solar Plant 320/0/4 +50% Production [Factory] {Rubber}
Nuclear Plant 240/0/4 +100% Production, 1 Pollution, Must be Near Water, Can Explode or Meltdown [Factory] {Uranium}
Offshore Platform 240/0/3 Increases Shields in Water, 2 Pollution (Coastal)

Research
Library 80/2/1 +50% Research Output (Scientific)
University 200/3/3 +50% Research Output [Library] (Scientific)
*Public School 200/1/2 +50% Research Output
Research Lab 240/1/4 +50% Research Output [University] (Scientific)

Corruption
Courthouse 80/0/1 Resistant to Propaganda, Reduces Corruption
*Newspaper 120/1/2 Reduces Corruption [Library] Printing Press
Police Station 160/0/2 Reduces Corruption, Reduces War Weariness [Courthouse]

Growth
Granary 60/0/1 Doubles City Growth Rate
Aqueduct 100/0/1 Allows City Size Level 2
Hospital 160/0/2 Allows City Size Level 3

Pollution
Mass Transit 200/0/3 Removes Population Pollution {Rubber}
Recycling Center 200/0/3 Removes Building Pollution

Cultural
*Forum 60/2/1
*Theater 160/4/2 Free Artistry
*Museum 240/6/4 [Theater] Atomic Theory

Wonders
Capital
Forbidden Palace

Happiness
Hanging Gardens
Oracle
Sistine Chapel
Shakespeare's Theater
JS Bacg's Cathedral
Cure for Cancer

Economic
Colossus
Wall Street

Trade
Great Lighthouse
Magellan's Voyage
Smith's Trading Company

Military
Great Wall
Sun Tzu's Art of War
Leonardo's Workshop
Universal Suffrage
Manhattan Project
Heroic Epic
Military Academy
Pentagon
Strategic Missile Defense
Intelligence Agency
Battlefield Medicine

Production
Hoover Dam
Iron Works

Research
Great Library
Copernicus's Observatory
Newton's University
Theory of Evolution
SETI Program
Apollo Program

Corruption
N/A

Growth
Longevity

Pollution
N/A

Cultural
Pyramids
United Nations

Space Ship Parts
SS Thrusters
SS Engine
SS Docking Bay
SS Cockpit
SS Fuel Cells
SS Life Support System
SS Stasis Chamber
SS Storage/Supply
SS Planetary Party Lounge
SS Exterior Casing

	15-01-2002 04:12									#225
	Inflate your Upload Space

Lockstep

i figured out the Blitz results

earlier, techwins reported that an army of knights did not have blitz, and then you report that a cavalry army does have blitz

well here is what is happening

Armies do have blitz, but every time a unit retreats that means that the army loses one one movement point, so what probably happened was that the first knight in techwins army most likely retreated so the attack (1mp) and the retreat (another 1mp) eat up all of the knight armies movement

so if you were able to attack with a cavalry army and none of the units ever retreated then it could have up to three attacks, but if you attacked, and the first two units in the army then retreated, all of the armies movement would be gone, i don't like that firaxis implemented it this way, but oh well

what i am wondering is does each time a unit retreat it uses up an army mp even when the army doesn't have blitz? if that was the case then this makes armies even weaker

i have some radical ideas formulating, and they may help improve the game significantly (on the other hand they could ruin it)

i'll post them soon as i think them out

	15-01-2002 04:32									#226
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Just wondering, the attatchement file only appears as 'file'. How do I use your mod?

	15-01-2002 06:45									#227
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Toasty

it says file? hmmm strange, on this server it usually has been calling all downloads just attachment without an extention

if you rename it from file to like blitz.zip it should open up for you if, not please post here and tell me

but anyways, last night before i went to bed i really started thinking of reasons why late game tedium exists and things we could do to fix it

today i came up with an idea, and that is to change all land offense and defense units starting with the discovery of gunpowder to cost at least one pop point

while although it won't be correct historical on a percentage scale, it should make the game behave in a more historical fashion

i feel that air units and naval units should cost about 10% more because of this change, but land bombard units shouldn't change price, and this will make them more attractive to build


because of this look for beta6 in a few hours, i know i am rapidly changing but, i felt this idea at leasts need full blown testing, it might not pan out but i want to give it a shot

also i am going to change the early gunpowder units slightly

musketman, rifleman, and infantry are all getting an attack rating increase to make them more well rounded

comments? i will be checking the thread while i edit the civ3mod.bic so please post

EDIT: Beta 6 is out, a link to download it is on the first page, enjoy!

As always all feedback is appreciated

Last edited by korn469 on 15-01-2002 at 07:55

	15-01-2002 17:52									#228
	Late Game Tedium Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Without reading all of the above, late game tedium exists beacuse:

1. There in no - one more turn feeling
* too many units (stacking would help)
* too many workers (better automation would help) - but it works for me anyway, if you are too good for the rest it doesn't really matter.
* too predictable
** if you can build enough units you will run over them eventually - that is fun just has to be made faster
** if you play peacefully you just have to make sure to have enough shields and fill in a 'recipe' build queue - that is OK just has to be made more automated. (insert worker automation) + ability to build good FORTRESSES (perhaps with civ II style ZOC to protect your border on time and the enemy cannot just easily roam accross your territory.) ( At least you would have the ability do protect yourself in that way)

2. Not enough diversified tech to discover, too little units, buildings, governments too.

3. The governments are not different enough (you can choose communism for war, (or fascism) or democracy for everything else) we could have some late game choice too, I think that there should be around 2 gov per age coming in the late stages of the age that have distinct attributes and advantages. (but the gov. tab in the editor might be too short with options for this one)

4. too slow to conquer once you have started to do it - should shorten the time for it (movement until you fight - enable roads in the enemy territory for starters), RR as it is helps too, as well as blitz ability.

5 Armies and fighting in general - * CTP style armies are much less tedious to menage and their combination of Bombard/ infantry/ flanking units idea was great and provides for fun way to fight.
To implement it here perhaps you should be able to assign that the first unit attacking in an army should be the bombnard units and than the flanking ones and only than the defensive ones but there is probably no way to do this. (but you can compensate with the style - build three armies of three units one with artillery , one with tanks, and one with mech inf. and than attack as you please.

*I think that the ability to attack the land units and destroy them with airplanes (fighters)/ ships is essential to make the units more useful and that eliminates the need to sweep after the fight.


Therefore what you would have after this changes:

Good beginning and the decent middle (perhaps a few tech changed and units/ buildings / goivernments added for better diversity). And when the end comes if you are peaceful you could just protect your borders with fortresses/ airplanes/ ships and not move until you are attacked workers would be good automated and you would quickly skip the turns while chasing the space victory or diplomatic one etc....

If you are a wargamer instead you woulkd have to naturally build up the army (shipa and airplanes would be useful too) protect the borders if you want or not. Stack up the units in the armies and go (no annoying slow movement in the enemy teritorry) and one last thing the cities defecting even if they have more than three iuntis in the city. that shoiuld be disabled too. Perhaps if you leave the city empty it shopuld defect like in 90 % of the cases. One unit 60% two units 30 % and three units 0 % . That makes sense.

Here it goes.... you wouyld be able to conquer quickly or the defender would beat you quickly and a lot of the late gsame tedium would dissapear coupled with more interesting tech to discover, a few interesting units and buioldings more ( a few I think not more than 5 just less, of each per two last ages) and two more governments.

That's it for now

	15-01-2002 22:02									#229
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Comments on cav in army.

Perhaps the army was allowed to attack twice because the first attack did not lead to a conclusion, that is, the unit retreated which does not complete the attack sequence (ie promotions, one unit dies). Just a thought! It would be easy to try this with one cav. Probably no one has since you're not likely to attack with a 1 hit point cav after it retreats.

	15-01-2002 22:56									#230
	Tired of ads?

OneFootInTheGrave

just a few comments

quote: * too many units (stacking would help)

armies are much cheaper, its easier to build the military academy, and additionally armies can hold up to five units, plus you can have twice as many armies in my mod as in normal civ3

quote: * too many workers (better automation would help) - but it works for me anyway, if you are too good for the rest it doesn't really matter. * too predictable

well there is nothing i can do about worker automation, however i'm trying to make it less predictable

quote: ** if you can build enough units you will run over them eventually - that is fun just has to be made faster ** if you play peacefully you just have to make sure to have enough shields and fill in a 'recipe' build queue - that is OK just has to be made more automated. (insert worker automation) + ability to build good FORTRESSES (perhaps with civ II style ZOC to protect your border on time and the enemy cannot just easily roam accross your territory.)

combat is hopefully more fun, and fotresses are MUCH cheaper, it cost 6 turns of terraforming compared to 16 in normal civ, so a regular civ if they are in democracy and have replaceable parts can build a fortress in one turn

quote: 2. Not enough diversified tech to discover, too little units, buildings, governments too.

i added new buildings and i will add a few new tech and units at a later date

quote: 3. The governments are not different enough (you can choose communism for war, (or fascism) or democracy for everything else) we could have some late game choice too, I think that there should be around 2 gov per age coming in the late stages of the age that have distinct attributes and advantages. (but the gov. tab in the editor might be too short with options for this one)

you're right, there aren't enough options in the government tab to really make a difference

quote: 4. too slow to conquer once you have started to do it - should shorten the time for it (movement until you fight - enable roads in the enemy territory for starters), RR as it is helps too, as well as blitz ability.

roads can't be enabled in the editor, so more movement points is the only option

quote: 5 Armies and fighting in general - * CTP style armies are much less tedious to menage and their combination of Bombard/ infantry/ flanking units idea was great and provides for fun way to fight. To implement it here perhaps you should be able to assign that the first unit attacking in an army should be the bombnard units and than the flanking ones and only than the defensive ones but there is probably no way to do this. (but you can compensate with the style - build three armies of three units one with artillery , one with tanks, and one with mech inf. and than attack as you please.

can't be done in the editor

quote: *I think that the ability to attack the land units and destroy them with airplanes (fighters)/ ships is essential to make the units more useful and that eliminates the need to sweep after the fight.

not only can this not be done in the editor (the editor is pretty, and easy to use but not powerful at all) but i disgree with airplanes completely destroying units...if you have ever played SMAC then you would get the chop and drop strat, where all you needed were airplanes and paratroopers, it wasn't fun at all...plus by doubling hitpoints, a 1hp unit is virtually defenseless

quote: Therefore what you would have after this changes: Good beginning and the decent middle (perhaps a few tech changed and units/ buildings / goivernments added for better diversity). And when the end comes if you are peaceful you could just protect your borders with fortresses/ airplanes/ ships and not move until you are attacked workers would be good automated and you would quickly skip the turns while chasing the space victory or diplomatic one etc.... If you are a wargamer instead you woulkd have to naturally build up the army (shipa and airplanes would be useful too) protect the borders if you want or not. Stack up the units in the armies and go (no annoying slow movement in the enemy teritorry) and one last thing the cities defecting even if they have more than three iuntis in the city. that shoiuld be disabled too. Perhaps if you leave the city empty it shopuld defect like in 90 % of the cases. One unit 60% two units 30 % and three units 0 % . That makes sense. Here it goes.... you wouyld be able to conquer quickly or the defender would beat you quickly and a lot of the late gsame tedium would dissapear coupled with more interesting tech to discover, a few interesting units and buioldings more ( a few I think not more than 5 just less, of each per two last ages) and two more governments. That's it for now

well the editor constrains me greatly, but i am trying to achieve the goals you have outlined

btw have you tried out beta6 yet? if so what do you think?

RPMisCOOL

quote: Comments on cav in army. Perhaps the army was allowed to attack twice because the first attack did not lead to a conclusion, that is, the unit retreated which does not complete the attack sequence (ie promotions, one unit dies). Just a thought! It would be easy to try this with one cav. Probably no one has since you're not likely to attack with a 1 hit point cav after it retreats.

here is what happened, there was a3 unit full movement (3) full hitpoint cav army beside three riflemen, the cav army attacked using one movement point, the first unit in the army had to break off but the attack continued, however that one unit breaking off cost the army another movement point, then the second cav unit in the army attacked and killed the first rifleman, then the cav army still had the option of attacking because the army conferred blitz on it

	15-01-2002 23:03									#231
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korn,

Ok, that blows my theory. Guess I didn't have the whole story straight. I'm going to give your mod a try even though it looks like you've had people experiencing a few crashes. Any idea if it is just the regular Civ3 crashes or due to your mod?

	16-01-2002 06:31									#232
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korn, just downloaded and tried the mod. I thinks its great. One of my major problems with the game is the expansion mode, and by creating a three population settler, you change the expansion rate greatly.

A couple of questions...

1) Are descriptions possible? It doesn't seem so, but keeping all the changes in my mind it tough, and it would be nice to be able to edit the Civilopedia to incorporate the new changes. Probably very difficult. We need a TeamCiv to create nice little tools for us.

2) Is there a reason warriors stayed 1/1/1 when everything else doubled?

Otherwise, I thinks its great. I look forward to some new updates, especially with the new ship. I think that idea is a winner.

Edit:

I took a look at the civilopedia text, which is pretty straightforward to use. I might suggest just searching for important game concepts, like the Wonders, the Units, the Governments, and changing the information. A lot of the descriptions don't need changing, but it seems to me that the ones where you might want to refresh your memory.

Although, I'm sure you are a busy man, and this isn't exactly the most pertinent thing for a good mod, but fundamental, in my opinion, for a great mod.

Last edited by hbavatar on 16-01-2002 at 06:38

	16-01-2002 08:23									#233
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RPMisCOOL

quote: Any idea if it is just the regular Civ3 crashes or due to your mod?

well there are three types of crashes

1) crashes caused irectly by the mod because of certain variables changes, these happen everytime and once you actually figure out what causes the crash its easy to fix, my mod has had some of these but i think beta6 is fairly free of them

2) crashes caused by the mod amplifying instabilities in the civ3 code, these are hard to detect because they usually happen somewhat randomly and they can be hard to fix, i'm unsure if beta6 has any of them

3) crashed that are completely unexplained and are most probably just civ3 crashed, my mod should have about as many of these as civ3

unless i introduced a number of type 2 crashes then my mod should be about as stable as civ3

that is part of the reason why i am asking for all of the feedback possible

hbavatar

quote: Although, I'm sure you are a busy man, and this isn't exactly the most pertinent thing for a good mod, but fundamental, in my opinion, for a great mod

i agree with you completely, and in previous versions of my mod i have had varying degrees of success in matching the civilopedia up with the changes, iirc either v1.02 or v1.03 had a completely compliant civilopedia, and v1.06 when it is finally ready will include this as well

however the civilopedia is fairly low on my list of priorities right now, which are as follows:

1) Change and balance game concepts to increase overall enjoyment from playing Civ3

2) Fix all bugs my Mod introduces

3) Match the units_32.pcx, the Civilopedia, and the pedia icons up

4) Release the finished mod and actually play a few games for fun

as to why i changed all of the other units stats but warriors there were reasons, but lately i am begining to think that dividing all of the stats but warriors would be better because it is simpler that way, and although i don't know for sure i think many here would perfer it like that

so what do you playtesters think?

Should i leave attack and defense at their current levels, or should i divide attack and defense rates by 2 so they would be closer to the original civ3 values?

	16-01-2002 19:57									#234
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Well I haven't played it for a while, it was just a little brainstorm.

A quick tought of how could we make the end game run better. (even though things like CTP style combat will be hardly ever possible)

What I can see that almost all aspects that could have been bettered are made better already.

I haven't tried settlers with 3 pop points, but I'd say that makes sense and will try it very soon.

I have to playtest, but I would leave attack and defense as it is -at least leave a version like that somewhere where interested ones (like me) can download.

on the airplanes and bombardment... that is true what you say, but lately they can almost singlehandedly win wars as well as there is no way to kill many stacked units in one place straight in the game.

Once I had more than 30 enemy calvary on one place and had to bring tank after tank to that same place just to kill them all. (and they often stack up these days ) If I had a fighter with 10 MP and blitz (desn't have to have very strong attack strenght), that would make it probably 4-5 airplanes as opposed to 15-20 tanks and other units like infantry etc to kill them all. (reduces late game tedium) but impossible for now...

overall sounds great, changes that I would want I will try it (perhaps even tonight if I manage ) and give you feedback.

So the ball is on Firaxis, if nothing else than on : roads in enemy territory, airplane/ship civ II option, fortress civ II option (or better to say ZOC), governments etc...

just a say on ZOC, yes you have changed the fortresses early on on my suggestion (thanks) to be much cheaper which definitley makes it better, but the bombard ability is very close to nothing (obviously it is not up to you , but Firaxis). In Civ II it was actually able to defend a bigger part of territory and the enemy had to take it out before they invade you (if you had a couple of them making a "wall" ) but they did not have to be next to each other but every 2nd square (civ II ZOC), and if the squares were lined up vertically (or on the diagonal of that trapezoid you know what...) you could cover quite a lot of territory with three four of them and close a passage or make a front. While now the enemy just passes aside loses 2-3 HP's in an army and who cares. defensive units in the fortress stay behind. Why would they even bother attacking a fortress with 50% up on the defensive value when they can just pass. That addition could cut on others moving around your territory too if you don't want them like settlers, workers going around etc....

Last edited by OneFootInTheGrave on 16-01-2002 at 20:39

	16-01-2002 21:13									#235
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OneFootInTheGrave

quote: Well I haven't played it for a while, it was just a little brainstorm. A quick tought of how could we make the end game run better. (even though things like CTP style combat will be hardly ever possible) What I can see that almost all aspects that could have been bettered are made better already. I haven't tried settlers with 3 pop points, but I'd say that makes sense and will try it very soon.

sounds cool to me

quote: Once I had more than 30 enemy calvary on one place and had to bring tank after tank to that same place just to kill them all. (and they often stack up these days ) If I had a fighter with 10 MP and blitz (desn't have to have very strong attack strenght), that would make it probably 4-5 airplanes as opposed to 15-20 tanks and other units like infantry etc to kill them all. (reduces late game tedium) but impossible for now

well i took my advice and i divided all of the stats by two and did some rounding so they more closer to Civ3's stats

however since i was going to increase the cost of airpower anyways i decided that you were right and in my version i bumped them up some, so here are their current stats on my civ3mod.bic (it is ahead of beta6) in the form a.d.m Bmbstr[RoF]Oprng cost resources

Fighter: 6.5.3 8[4]6 100 oil, rubber (blitz)
Bomber: 0.3.3 12[8]8 120 oil, rubber (blitz)
Jet Fighter: 12.10.4 12[6]8 150 oil, aluminum (blitz)
F-15: 12.10.4 15[8]8 150 oil, aluminum (blitz, radar)
Stealth Fighter: 0.4.4 16[6]8 150 oil, rubber, aluminum (blitz, radar, stealth)
Stealth Bomber: 0.2.4 18[10]8 300 oil, rubber, aluminum (blitz, radar, stealth)

anyways with those changes, ten fighters would be able to maul a stack of 30 Cavalry, and eight of the modern era air units should be able to maim that stack.

quote: just a say on ZOC, yes you have changed the fortresses early on on my suggestion (thanks) to be much cheaper which definitley makes it better, but the bombard ability is very close to nothing (obviously it is not up to you , but Firaxis). In Civ II it was actually able to defend a bigger part of territory and the enemy had to take it out before they invade you (if you had a couple of them making a "wall" ) but they did not have to be next to each other but every 2nd square (civ II ZOC), and if the squares were lined up vertically (or on the diagonal of that trapezoid you know what...) you could cover quite a lot of territory with three four of them and close a passage or make a front. While now the enemy just passes aside loses 2-3 HP's in an army and who cares. defensive units in the fortress stay behind. Why would they even bother attacking a fortress with 50% up on the defensive value when they can just pass. That could cut on others moving areound your territory and ytou don't want them like settlers, workers going around etc

hmmm...this gives me an idea, it wouldn't be a fortress per se, but it could behave like a civ2 fortress (if ZOC works like in civ2, or does zoc just mean free shot?) but create a unit called a landmine for example, give it 0.0.1 stats and make it immoble but give it zoc, also make it cheap like 10 shields, and make it so that workers could carry them so that a landmine stacked with a in a fort would give you civ2 like fortresses

how does that sound?

EDIT:

ARRRG! it still crashes on me everytime i select fuedalism! i guess i need to reinstall the game and recreate the civ3mod.bic, for some reason that seems to help

also i have decided to change food consumption to 3 and change food values to balance this...this will allow cities to die from starvation (and it doesn't appear to crash the game)

	17-01-2002 02:18									#236
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quote: however since i was going to increase the cost of airpower anyways i decided that you were right and in my version i bumped them up some, so here are their current stats on my civ3mod.bic (it is ahead of beta6) in the form a.d.m Bmbstr[RoF]Oprng cost resources Fighter: 6.5.3 8[4]6 100 oil, rubber (blitz) Bomber: 0.3.3 12[8]8 120 oil, rubber (blitz) Jet Fighter: 12.10.4 12[6]8 150 oil, aluminum (blitz) F-15: 12.10.4 15[8]8 150 oil, aluminum (blitz, radar) Stealth Fighter: 0.4.4 16[6]8 150 oil, rubber, aluminum (blitz, radar, stealth) Stealth Bomber: 0.2.4 18[10]8 300 oil, rubber, aluminum (blitz, radar, stealth) anyways with those changes, ten fighters would be able to maul a stack of 30 Cavalry, and eight of the modern era air units should be able to maim that stack.

I will try it now and tell you what I think...

quote: hmmm...this gives me an idea, it wouldn't be a fortress per se, but it could behave like a civ2 fortress (if ZOC works like in civ2, or does zoc just mean free shot?) but create a unit called a landmine for example, give it 0.0.1 stats and make it immoble but give it zoc, also make it cheap like 10 shields, and make it so that workers could carry them so that a landmine stacked with a in a fort would give you civ2 like fortresses how does that sound?

That sounds BRILLIANT

This would give purpose to the fortress and to protection of the borders (which I would really like if I am going for a peaceful win (or need to close a passage). I don't know that Civ II style ZOC can be assigned to a unit? (cannot move in an adjectant square-has to kill if it wants to pass)

They could come at infantry time... hmm what about middle ages, fortresses served than to a similar purpose, perhaps this kind of unit but maybe make it like an improvement (the best would be ability). Anyway if it can only be a unit - it should be somewhat abstract but I feel that this idea will certainly add to good gameplay.

	17-01-2002 05:08									#237
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First of all, I like the idea of bringing the stats back down, but keep your changes. The point of it all, as I understand and agree with, is to make combat a little mor eregular. One of the more frustrating elements of game at this point is the irregularity of military victories. My tanks losing to rifleman, etc. By increasing the number of hit points, it would appear that you are giving the stats longer to take affect. Over a long period of time, or more chances, a statistically better unit should win. That leads to more regularity, and the meaning of a spearman or samurai killing a tank goes up. I mean really, if a samurai took out a tank, that would be a big deal. So, I say bring them down, but keep the hit points up.

A comment on settlers, which I wanted to bring up... It would seem that if you are going to make them wheeled, and thereby limit their terrain options, you should increase their movement rate, such that they go where they can faster. With the three pop points and higher but limited movement, you greatly change the expansion process. The borders will look very different from the normal game, and controlling large stretches of mountains, and thereby resources becomes much harder. Introducing the ship will make a big difference too.

I like the mines, if they are possible. ZOC is tricky, and mainly meaningless. Being able to keep troops out, or funnel them into particularly tough areas would be a nice change from the current form of defense.

The new buildings are nice, although icons would be a neat touch, but not very important. I guess I tend to think about the finishing touches first.

Anyway, its going great so far.

	17-01-2002 05:32									#238
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hbavatar

what i meant was keep HPs the same but divide attack and defense by 2, and in fact i've already done this

quote: It would seem that if you are going to make them wheeled, and thereby limit their terrain options, you should increase their movement rate, such that they go where they can faster. With the three pop points and higher but limited movement, you greatly change the expansion process. The borders will look very different from the normal game, and controlling large stretches of mountains, and thereby resources becomes much harder. Introducing the ship will make a big difference too.

all of the changes to settlers was in order to delay expansion somewhat, and to actually have a real age of colonization around mid game when the colonist appears

quote: I like the mines, if they are possible. ZOC is tricky, and mainly meaningless. Being able to keep troops out, or funnel them into particularly tough areas would be a nice change from the current form of defense.

i'm working on it and if it is possible i'll add it

quote: The new buildings are nice, although icons would be a neat touch, but not very important. I guess I tend to think about the finishing touches first.

i'll get around to this hopefully sooner rather than later :d

i'm glad you are enjoying it, same goes for you OneFootInTheGrave

	17-01-2002 06:44									#239
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 hbavatar all of the changes to settlers was in order to delay expansion somewhat, and to actually have a real age of colonization around mid game when the colonist appears

Okay, but in the game I just played, the world has basically been colonized before anyone discovered navigation. I guess it would be worth it to consider the world type you are playing under. I use thick continents, which generally leads to few islands. In an island heavy game, I think you are right about the Settler's difference, but in a island free game, they don't do much.

I think the advantage to having very mobile settlers is that the initial expansion will settle down, making the explosion of colonization much more meaningful. By having people settled and ready, there will truly be a race to expand when that time comes around. There are pros and cons, but that's the way I see it.

Another question, is there any advantage to building granaries after building the Pyramids? I'm sure I could find that somewhere.

Ohh, and one more thing. In the art folder's is the splash window that pops up when you start the game. When you open it, you could simply write in that the game has been modified, like this:

Korn's Blitz Modification v.xxx

It would be a nice professional addition.

	17-01-2002 08:09									#240
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quote: Another question, is there any advantage to building granaries after building the Pyramids? I'm sure I could find that somewhere.

pyramids no longer put a granary in each city, instead it gives each city on the continant +1 culture in a round about way

quote: Ohh, and one more thing. In the art folder's is the splash window that pops up when you start the game. When you open it, you could simply write in that the game has been modified, like this: Korn's Blitz Modification v.xxx

great idea!!!