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Cypselus
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Arlington, VA
Nov 2001
time: 05:16
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I just installed and started playing with 1.05c this weekend (regent, Babylonians, 8 civ, large, continental), and think it's a great improvement. I confess to not having read the entire thread, so forgive me if I repeat what others have said. With that out of the way, on to the comments.
Doubling unit hitpoints helps tremendously to eliminate some of the screwy results that so flaw the box-stock combat system. Excellent, simple idea. Great work. I do get the trail, but only early in the game. By about 1000 BC, no more trails.
The new buildings are a welcome addition. Gives me more stuff to build.
I think fascism is too powerful. It's like democracy without war-weariness. If there's a penalty to it, I don't see it. Certainly the AI civs all switched as soon as possible. I'm not quite sure how to balance it, but I'll think about it and give my suggestions if any thing occurrs to me.
Thanks for your work.
Last edited by Cypselus on 18-12-2001 at 04:18
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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here is the second blitz beta, it is about 90% done, i will try to update the civilopedia and include all of the files with it on sunday, enjoy till then
some of the changes are
*added colonist founds cities, cost 80/2 moves 2
*increased settler pop cost to 3
*palace adds 25% defense bonus
*Multiplied unit strength by 2 for ancient and middle ages units and 2.5 for industrial and modern units
*Changed experiance levels to the following
conscript 4
regular 6
veteran 9
elite 12
plus much much more!
ps please report any crashes, because it should be fairly crash free, also you need to add a file for both colonist and partisan or the game will crash
Last edited by korn469 on 08-01-2002 at 00:13
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Ancientfool
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You should check your save file first. I read on a seperate thread that the game will crash if your save file exceeds 8024k. This was using Marlas modified earth map where the AI just builds too many cities (extra huge map) by the modern age. Probably not possible to exceed this on your standard huge map but who knows?
If that aint it I cant help you... Ive never gotten beyond 1600ad or so on ANY GAME for various non bug reasons.
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TechWins
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Arizona
Apr 2001
time: 22:16
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Korn, I was playing v1.06beta last night and twice the game crashed on me. The first time it was around 825bc. The second time, in a new game, the game again crashed on me around 825bc. On both games I was playing on a Standard Map and 8 Civs. Nothing peculiar was going on, either, when the game decided to crash. The first time I had just got done building a city and about five seconds later the game crashed. The third time the game crashed about 2 minutes after I got done building a city. That is about the only corralation between the two crashes. However, I did make a few changes to the Mod before I played. Yes, I did create the Colonist file and Partisan file (Partisan was already in place, though).
Outside of the game crashing I really like the changes you made to the Mod. The AI seems to expand a lot less, which is fantastic in my opinion. Not to mention it is very hard for me to expand, then again I did change the shield cost of the Settler from 3 to 4. I think a 4 shield cost for a Settler is a bit too much, so I'll most likely stay with the original 3 shield cost. I noticed you made the Settler a wheeled unit. IIRC, when a unit is 'wheeled' it can't move through hills and mountains without a road being in place. Well, when I was playing my Settler was able to move through hills; I haven't tried moving the Settler through mountains, though. Maybe 'wheeled' just means you can't move through mountains, and I'm wrong on this one.
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Ancientfool
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Hey, i just reinstalled civ3 and tried your mod again and this time everything was great until 1790 or so. On the turn I enter the modern age the game crashes to desktop no matter which tech i select to research. This sounds just like what Desert Dog has seen.
Game settings. Large continents world with minimum water. Playing as Japan with 8 enemy civs. Regent difficulty, Rampaging barbarians.
Mods installed.. No civ color or other mods mentioned by desert dog. I am using the Snoopy graphics set though (which he didnt mention) and im using the resource labels mod.
I think the mod is the version c
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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ok here is a taste of the changes i made in v1.06, it's only the units right now, but i will try to post it all soon
v1.06
Changes to Units
Settler 0.0.1 3/3 (wheeled) {Colonist}
Worker 0.0.1 1/1
Scout 0.0.1 1 (all terrain as roads) {Explorer}
Explorer 1.1.2 2 (all terrain as roads) Astronomy
Marine 30.20.2 10 (amphibious unit) rubber
Paratrooper 25.25.2 [8] 110 (airdrop) oil, rubber
Warrior 1.1.1 1 {Legionary}
Archer 4.2.1 2 {Longbowman}
Spearman 2.4.1 2 {Pikeman}
Swordsman 6.4.1 3 {Rifleman} iron
Chariot 2.2.2 2 (wheeled) {Mounted Warrior} horses
Horseman 4.2.2 3 (mounted) {Rider} horses
Pikeman 2.6.1 3 {Musketeer} none
Longbowman 8.2.1 3 {Rifleman} iron
Musketman 4.8.1 4 {Rifleman} saltpeter
Knight 8.6.2 6 (mounted) {Coassack} horses, iron
Rifleman 10.15.1 6 {Infantry}
Cavalry 12.6.3 8 (mounted) {Panzer} horses, saltpeter
Infantry 15.25.2 8 {Mech Infantry} rubber
Tank 40.20.3 10 (blitz) {Modern Armor} oil, rubber
Mech Infantry 30.45.4 12 (blitz) oil, rubber
Modern Armor 60.30.4 12 (blitz) oil, rubber, aluminum
Catapult 0.1.1 8[2]1 2 (wheeled) {Cannon}
Cannon 0.2.1 16[2]1 4 (wheeled) {Artillary} saltpeter
Artillary 0.3.2 30[5]2 8 {Radar Artillary}
Radar Artillary 0.4.3 40[7]2 12 (blitz) aluminum
Cruise Missile 0.0.1 25[8]4 6 (tactical missile, cruise missile, foot soldier, load, airlift) aluminum
Tactical Nuke 0.0.1 0[0]8 13 aluminum, uranium
ICBM 0.0.1 (ICBM) 25 Aluminum, Uranium
Galley 1.1.3 2|2 {Caravel}
Caravel 2.4.4 3|2 {Galleon}
Frigate 6.6.5 5 4[4]1 {Ironclad} iron, saltpeter
Galleon 2.4.5 5|4 {transport}
Ironclad 12.12.6 10[5]1 7 {Destroyer} iron, coal
Transport 3.5.8 10|8 oil
Carrier 3.25.10 20|5 (radar) oil
Submarine 25.10.8 9 (can see submarines) oil
Destroyer 30.20.11 15[5]1 10 (can see submarines) {Aegis Cruiser} oil
Battleship 50.35.10 25[5]2 20 oil
Aegis Cruiser 30.30.11 10[5]1 16|2 (can see submarines, radar, can carry tactical missiles, carry foot units only) aluminum, uranium
Nuclear Submarine 15.20.9 15|3 (can see submarines, can carry tactical missiles) uranium
Fighter 12.10.2 15[3]6 8 (blitz) {Jet Fighter} oil
Bomber 0.7.2 25[8]8 10 (blitz) oil
Helicopter 0.4.2 0[0]6 9 (can see submarines) oil, rubber
Jet Fighter 25.20.3 25[5]8 12 (blitz, radar) oil, aluminum
Stealth Fighter 0.5.3 35[5]8 12 (blitz, radar, stealth) oil, rubber, aluminum
Stealth Bomber 0.3.3 38[10]8 240 (blitz, radar, stealth) oil, rubber, aluminum
Army -.-.1 13|2 (army, blitz, pillage)
Jaguar Warrior 2.2.2 1 {Warrior}
Bowman 4.4.1 2 {Archer}
Hoplite 2.6.1 2 {Impi}
Impi 2.4.2 {Spearman}
Legionary 6.6.1 3 {Immortals} iron
Immortals 8.4.1 3 {Swordsman} iron
War Chariot 4.2.2 2 {Chariot} horses
Rider 8.6.3 6 (mounted) {Samurai} horses, iron
Mounted Warrior 6.2.2 3 (mounted) {Horseman} horses
Musketeer 6.8.1 4 {Musketman} saltpeter
Samurai 8.8.2 6 {War Elephant} iron
War Elephant 8.6.2 6 (mounted) {Knight}
Cossack 12.8.3 8 (mounted) {Cavalry} horses, saltpeter
Panzer 40.20.4 10 (blitz) {Tank} oil, rubber
Man-O-War 8.6.5 6[4]1 {Frigate} iron, saltpeter
F-15 25.20.3 30[8]8 120 oil, aluminum
Privateer 4.2.6 4 (hidden nationality, zoc) {Destroyer} iron, saltpeter
Partisan 8.8.4 2/1 (hidden nationality)
Colonist 0.0.2 8/2
Changes to Combat Experiance
Conscript 4
Regular 6
Veteran 9
Elite 12
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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the full version isn't ready yet, but here is the latest beta
note: to install the beta you will need to replace the current civ3mod.bic file with the civ3mod.bic file i included, however i strongly recommend that you make a backup of your original civ3mod.bic in case my mods crash your game
also to keep the game from crashing you will need to create two unit folders (you can find these folders in ...\Civ3\Art\Units), the partisan unit folder and the colonist unit folder, you will then need to copy all of the files from the paratrooper unit folder to the partisan unit folder, and rename paratrooper.ini to partisan.ini then you will need to copy all of the files from the explorer unit folder to the colonist unit folder and rename explorer.ini to colonist.ini
 Attachment: blitzv1.06beta6.zip
This has been downloaded 265 time(s).
Last edited by korn469 on 15-01-2002 at 08:25
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lockstep
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Vienna, Austria
Aug 2001
time: 06:16
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Some preliminary comments (sea and air units not included):- The idea to raise the movement rate of industrial and modern units (especially defensive units) seems very interesting, but will have to be heavily tested as it virtually kills retreat in the late game. Anyway, I suggest to trim mech. infantry movement to 3 (still more than in v1.16).
- I strongly agree with lowering the defense value of modern armor to make mech. infantry wortwhile.
- I like your idea to raise the A/D values for industrial and modern units by 25% (compared to ancient and medieval units) to combat the 'spearman beats tank' problem. However, I also like initial A/D values of 1, 2, 3 etc. Perhaps you could just enhance the late-game units with a ratio of 'about 1.25' (e.g. change rifleman to 5/8, infantry to 8/12) and don't change early units at all?
- If you decide to double early unit stats, I see no reason to except warriors. (BTW, the combination of warriors with 1/1/1 and Jaguar warriors with 2/2/2 is a game breaker IMO.)
- To smooth out the transition from the medieval to the industrial era, I suggest to change musketmen to 4/10 (2/5 in the original scale). This should also be helpful against the 'rush to cavalry' strategy.
- Regarding artillery units, the higher movement rate of modern units seems logical. OTOH, I really don't know what to think of defense values ... it was nice to be able to capture artillery, but the lack of stacked movement in v 1.16 makes you think twice about using artillery at all.
- The ability to upgrade to unique units ... after some thoughts, I agree with you. At the very least, musketeers make sense then.
- Ditto for your changes to the scout; this will enhance the expansionist CSA. OTOH, by giving the explorer positive A/D values, won't the AI view it as combat unit and border intrusion as agressive act? (The AI cares about its borders.)
- The concept of land units with hidden nationality is interesting, although I can't comment on the partisan's stats.
- I agree with raising hitpoints of the different experience levels, but won't result a 4/6/9/12 scale in battles that last forever? What about 3/4/5/6, 3/4/5/7, 3/5/7/9 or 3/5/7/10?
- The idea of settlers costing 3 population points just doesn't seem right to me. If you want to delay early expansion, rather increase shield costs for settlers to 4 or 5.
- Last, but not least the colonist ... I think the original reasoning behind this unit was to provide expansionist civs with a 2-movement-point-settler so that they could claim the best city sites in the early game. I suggest that you do just that: Give expansionist civs a 0/0/2 4/2 'colonist' and other civs a 0/0/1 4/2 'settler'. (Note: AFAIK, expansionist civs must start with a settler to prevent civ3 from shutting down. However, after founding their first city they will build colonists instead of settlers.)
Okay, I'll stop ranting now. Keep up your great work, and I´m anticipating the definite version 1.06 ...
Postscript: AFAIK, the 'blitz' ability means that a unit can attack once for each movement point. Armies (also in your mod) have a movement rate of 1, therefore 'blitz' doesn't make sense for them. Have you tested the effects of raising the movement rate of armies? (And speaking of armies and blitz, have you ever witnessed an army of, say, 3 knights that attacked three times in a turn? If not, this part of your mod needs to be tuned seriously.)
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korn469
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Poetic Justic
Apr 1999
time: 00:16
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lockstep
point by point
quote:
The idea to raise the movement rate of industrial and modern units (especially defensive units) seems very interesting, but will have to be heavily tested as it virtually kills retreat in the late game. Anyway, I suggest to trim mech. infantry movement to 3 (still more than in v1.16). |
afaik a unit with a higher movement value should still be able to retreat, so u could move a modern armor unit once, attack a fortified infantry unit and although the infantry unit has 2 movement the modern armor unit should be able to retreat...also i purposely raised the mech infantry movement so was as fast as modern armor so that stacking mech infantry/modern armor in an army would be effective
quote:
I strongly agree with lowering the defense value of modern armor to make mech. infantry wortwhile. |
one of the main aims of my mod is to encourage combined arms, and faster mech infantry along with less capable modern armor defense should really encourage combined arms with these two units
quote:
I like your idea to raise the A/D values for industrial and modern units by 25% (compared to ancient and medieval units) to combat the 'spearman beats tank' problem. However, I also like initial A/D values of 1, 2, 3 etc. Perhaps you could just enhance the late-game units with a ratio of 'about 1.25' (e.g. change rifleman to 5/8, infantry to 8/12) and don't change early units at all? |
the reason i did this was to make it virtually impossible a warrior would ever beat any modern unit
quote:
If you decide to double early unit stats, I see no reason to except warriors. (BTW, the combination of warriors with 1/1/1 and Jaguar warriors with 2/2/2 is a game breaker IMO.) |
game breaker? jaguar warriors are only better in relation to warriors
quote:
To smooth out the transition from the medieval to the industrial era, I suggest to change musketmen to 4/10 (2/5 in the original scale). This should also be helpful against the 'rush to cavalry' strategy. |
i'll look into this, but i also wanted a rather dramatic change going from the middle ages to the industrial era
quote:
Regarding artillery units, the higher movement rate of modern units seems logical. OTOH, I really don't know what to think of defense values ... it was nice to be able to capture artillery, but the lack of stacked movement in v 1.16 makes you think twice about using artillery at all. |
while there isn't stacked movement in 1.16 armies in v1.06 will be much more prevalant, plus i really don't agree with being able to capture artillary units, to me it goes against the principles of being rewarded for your actions, the small defense values will make unprotected artillary vulerable, but it should remove the abilit to capture them
quote:
The ability to upgrade to unique units ... after some thoughts, I agree with you. At the very least, musketeers make sense then. |
i really don't see why a nation should be punished for having a unique unit (ie all nations except rome and persia can upgrade warriors to swordsmen)
quote:
Ditto for your changes to the scout; this will enhance the expansionist CSA. OTOH, by giving the explorer positive A/D values, won't the AI view it as combat unit and border intrusion as agressive act? (The AI cares about its borders.) |
i hadn't thought about the ai getting upset armed scouts, if this is a problem i'll change it
quote:
The concept of land units with hidden nationality is interesting, although I can't comment on the partisan's stats. |
the partisans speed should allow them to retreat from more powerful units, originally i set them as bombard units, with a weak bombard, but the AI is completely passive when set to bombard, for the AI to use partisan units effectively it needs them to be offensive units, which the AI will certainly use to take over poorly defended cities
quote:
I agree with raising hitpoints of the different experience levels, but won't result a 4/6/9/12 scale in battles that last forever? What about 3/4/5/6, 3/4/5/7, 3/5/7/9 or 3/5/7/10? |
battles shouldn't take forever, but if they do get too long you can always cut off the animations...plus with a greater number of hitpoints bombard units become more valuable since having one hitpoint out of a possible 6 for regular units is much worse than having one hp out of a possible 3 for regular units
quote:
The idea of settlers costing 3 population points just doesn't seem right to me. If you want to delay early expansion, rather increase shield costs for settlers to 4 or 5. |
if shields are the limiting factor, then ICS rears its ugly head, as long as population is the limiting factor ICS doesn't exist
quote:
Last, but not least the colonist ... I think the original reasoning behind this unit was to provide expansionist civs with a 2-movement-point-settler so that they could claim the best city sites in the early game. I suggest that you do just that: Give expansionist civs a 0/0/2 4/2 'colonist' and other civs a 0/0/1 4/2 'settler'. (Note: AFAIK, expansionist civs must start with a settler to prevent civ3 from shutting down. However, after founding their first city they will build colonists instead of settlers.)
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my reasoning for the colonist wasn't to provide expansionist civs with a 2 mp settler, it was to delay some expansion to the midgame and prevent the problem of the map filling late early game
quote:
AFAIK, the 'blitz' ability means that a unit can attack once for each movement point. Armies (also in your mod) have a movement rate of 1, therefore 'blitz' doesn't make sense for them. Have you tested the effects of raising the movement rate of armies? (And speaking of armies and blitz, have you ever witnessed an army of, say, 3 knights that attacked three times in a turn? If not, this part of your mod needs to be tuned seriously.) |
armies move as fast as their slowest unit, and only if the army contains (only?) units with blitz will it actually have blitz...so while an army of knights won't have blitz, an army of modern armor/mech infantry should have it
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lockstep
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Vienna, Austria
Aug 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by korn469
afaik a unit with a higher movement value should still be able to retreat, so u could move a modern armor unit once, attack a fortified infantry unit and although the infantry unit has 2 movement the modern armor unit should be able to retreat...also i purposely raised the mech infantry movement so was as fast as modern armor so that stacking mech infantry/modern armor in an army would be effective |
I'm not sure about this one, but always thought that the 'retreat' concept only applies if a unit with a movement rate greater than 1 attacks a unit with a movement rate of 1. This needs to be tested ... Regarding mech. infantry, I see your point, but then you should perhaps increase the infantry movement rate to 3 to match that of the tank. (Hmm, this could make for another 'realism vs. gameplay' debate ...)
quote:
the reason i did this was to make it virtually impossible a warrior would ever beat any modern unit |
But what about a spearman? Seriously, I just wanted to suggest a big increase of late-game-unit stats and no increase at all of early-game-unit stats. OTOH, this matter isn't that important ...
quote:
game breaker? jaguar warriors are only better in relation to warriors |
Well, I don't have much experience when it comes to war-mongering, but from Vel's strategy threads I can only conclude that Jaguar warriors are extremly powerful in the early game. I wouldn't do anything that enhances their odds.
quote:
while there isn't stacked movement in 1.16 armies in v1.06 will be much more prevalant, plus i really don't agree with being able to capture artillary units, to me it goes against the principles of being rewarded for your actions, the small defense values will make unprotected artillary vulerable, but it should remove the abilit to capture them |
Have to agree now. And armies that really make sense? Can't wait for v1.06 ...
quote:
battles shouldn't take forever, but if they do get too long you can always cut off the animations...plus with a greater number of hitpoints bombard units become more valuable since having one hitpoint out of a possible 6 for regular units is much worse than having one hp out of a possible 3 for regular units |
I like to view my battles, and although I see the reasoning behind increasing hitpoints, the optimum scale may be somewhere in the middle between civ3 1.16 and blitz 1.06. BTW, if 'armies will be much more prevalent', will there be frequent battles between armies containing 4 elite units (and therefore 48 hitpoints)?
quote:
if shields are the limiting factor, then ICS rears its ugly head, as long as population is the limiting factor ICS doesn't exist |
Well, playtesting should tell if this is true (or a very thorough analysis of shield vs. pop point opportunity costs that I'm not really capable of at the moment).
quote:
my reasoning for the colonist wasn't to provide expansionist civs with a 2 mp settler, it was to delay some expansion to the midgame and prevent the problem of the map filling late early game |
This is a different 'colonist' concept that could be interesting. IMO, this should translate in a unit with lower pop costs and the same or lower (but not higher) shield costs.
BTW, a graphics suggestion: IIRC, there are two versions of the settler graphic (ancient and modern). Just use the second one for the colonist - after all, he makes the settler obsolete.
quote:
armies move as fast as their slowest unit, and only if the army contains (only?) units with blitz will it actually have blitz...so while an army of knights won't have blitz, an army of modern armor/mech infantry should have it |
I'd like to know how the blitz frequency is actually calculated ... sigh, again, playtesting should tell.
... eagerly awaiting the rest of the readme (and I promise also to look at the sea and air unit stats) ...  
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lockstep
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Vienna, Austria
Aug 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by korn469
virtually all of the changes are already in the v1.06 beta civ3mod.bic, while there may be a few areas i need to go back and change the actual game change are about complete |
I know, but it can be very tedious to figure things out by browsing the BIC-file (e.g. regarding government stats). And I also don't mind if some of my suggestions make it into v1.07. 
quote:
what i have yet to start on and certainly dread is changing the civilopedia, pediaicon, and other text files, along with finding someone to mod the units_32.pcx for me since i don't have a program capable of working with pcx files on my computer |
I know that this is the 'hard' part to make a mod interesting for the casual gamer. You're certainly right to give priority to gameplay and balancing ... I just made the colonist graphic suggestion because IMO the solution is nice AND easy to do.
quote:
maximum number of units in an army is now 5, so you could have a number of 60hp armies facing each other
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quote:
here is more of the readme |
Expect my comments tomorrow (it's pretty late already). Just one thing (in fact, a second promise): I've been following the discussions of other prominent mods (namely ancient's, monkspider's, plutarck's and vel's). So far, your Blitz mod is overall the most solid work IMO, but there are quite a lot of reasonable ideas in the other mods as well. Expect me to do a list of changes that I deem really interesting and that you maybe also want to include in future versions of your mod (always giving credit to the other modmakers where credit is due).
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OneFootInTheGrave
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Kuzelj
Nov 2000
time: 05:16
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I personally supposrt korn in the decision to up the unit stats from an age to the other so that the science reace measn a bit more and who comes first to the new age has a definite advantage. The same goes with HP's, not only will it significantly decrease the warrior vs. tank syndrome, it will make bombard units worthwile, and elite units more valuable too. I support better movement rates too, as it gives the smallmaps a 'real small feel' as well a more natuiral feel to the gigantic ones, plus I prefer this in combas (as no road bonus in the enemy terittory.) Makes conquering less tedious.
If there is a way I would turn roads on in the enemy territory as well, but I guess this option does not exsist.
Min and max research times  yes... I change them for myself (perhaps because I prefer civ II feeling to civ III one  )
As for the terrain bonus, I like techwins ideas, they make sense, the only difference is that I like cutting down forrests and getting this 10 shields extra, but I don't think this is such an excellent strategy, having just forests they give you the same amount of shields in roughly three turns if they are RR. (OK no corruption)... but I would leave that option on. Other than that having less gold, and fewer shields (no mining of grassland), makes sense, mountains would return that, and that is a good differentiation from kingdoms ijn the mountains and the ones in the plains, food vs productrion, it should just be tested to see how the AI responds.
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17-12-2001 22:16
HELP? I posted in this thread because I am using Korns great mod. Thanks! 
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