20-11-2001 19:22									#1
	European Court Votes For Higher Prices Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/bu...000/1665890.stm

	20-11-2001 19:28									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: While the UK government backed Tesco, the French and Italian administrations sided with the brand owners.

Interesting...

	20-11-2001 19:30									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

While it's a bad decision for the consumer, shouldn't sellers have a choice over who they sell to and at which price?

	20-11-2001 19:32									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think we should ignore the European court and let Tesco sell what they want in OUR F*CKING COUNTRY!

	20-11-2001 19:32									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

...

Inf beat me to it.

	20-11-2001 19:33									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Quite possibly. However, Levi Strauss are willingly selling their product to wholesale firms in the US, and then complaining when those companies sell the good on to British supermarkets.

I can't see how this breaks any laws.

	20-11-2001 19:35									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by MattHiggs I think we should ignore the European court and let Tesco sell what they want in OUR F*CKING COUNTRY!

You signed on to the organization. Now take your medicine.

	20-11-2001 19:37									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Basically if you look at the ruling... actually selling the good is not illegal. Indeed, even importing the good isn't illegal. It is only the amount of the good that is being imported that is illegal. In other words, the EU has implemented an import quota.

Right or wrong?

	20-11-2001 20:14									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I don't even know what the ruling is...but the whole discussion sounds Mickey Mouse.

Britain...come join NAFTA...who loves ya, baby!! If the Swiss don't need the EU, neither do you...

	20-11-2001 20:46									#10
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by MattHiggs I think we should ignore the European court and let Tesco sell what they want in OUR F*CKING COUNTRY!

Do that and we'll fine your ass for infigement of Community Law too, islander

Ok, gotta go. But the swiss want to join the EU; it's the bank executives and their sorry sold out politicians who don't let them join yet (in order to keep the huge financial inflaw the tailored swiss made bank secrecy laws provide)

Just a matter fo time; you can't go against the will of the people

	20-11-2001 20:56									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Letssee if this link works. (if it does should bring you to the full text of the judgment)

http://www.europa.eu.int/jurisp/cgi...ce=ARRET&where=()

Iain:

"actually selling the good is not illegal. Indeed, even importing the good isn't illegal. It is only the amount of the good that is being imported that is illegal."

No, it's the matter of who can distribute trade marked goods against the will of the trade mark holder.

"In other words, the EU has implemented an import quota."

Uhm... that's funny, but I wish you luck in getting that out of the Davidoff judgment....

GP:

"Britain...come join NAFTA...who loves ya, baby!!"

Oh please, yes. That would be so piss funny, I'd do nothing but laugh for years...

"If the Swiss don't need the EU, neither do you..."

ROTFLMGDFAO... George, you're a riot!

	20-11-2001 20:59									#12
	Tired of ads?

NAFTA is a better deal than the EU. Cheaper Consumer goods and more economic devolopment for member states.

	20-11-2001 21:06									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

"NAFTA is a better deal than the EU. Cheaper Consumer goods and more economic devolopment for member states."

Yeah sure. A free trade area vs economic and monetary union. Oh boy, that REALLY hurts... where's the LMAO smiley ????

	20-11-2001 21:17									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well wasnt the whole reason of forming the EU to become an Economic Rival to America

Dont give me all this BS about unity...thats the only reason the EU has gone as far as it has.

	20-11-2001 21:20									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

"Well wasnt the whole reason of forming the EU to become an Economic Rival to America"

a) this is completely irrelevant to the different dimension of economic integration we are talking about. At least I'm not aware that NAFTA includes tiny things like say the free movement of workers.

b) it is wrong in that we really have other things to worry about.

	20-11-2001 21:21									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Capitalism in action.

	20-11-2001 21:26									#17
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Snapcase Capitalism in action.

Capitalism kicks ass

Only in Capitalism can you buy Gas, Electronics and CD's cheaper than a bottle of water

Sounds backwards...works out great tho

	20-11-2001 21:27									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Reaction to any given EU action:

Nutty leftwinger: "Evil business and capitalism in action"
Nutty rightwinger: "Evil bureaucrats and socialism in action"

I absolutely love the entertainment value...

	20-11-2001 21:29									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

"Only in Capitalism can you buy Gas, Electronics and CD's cheaper than a bottle of water"

What the **** are you paying for your water ?!?!?!

	20-11-2001 21:29									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

Chill Roland, I'm joking around. A serious seduction would be mounted more stealthily...

I don't know wether the UK isbetter off in/out of the EU (despite the problems involved with being in it...there are negative consequences of being "outside the wall", especially when all your neighbors are inside it.) I do maintain that free trade (even unilateral) is more beneficial to any nation than protectionism. And there is a lot of "finky" protectionism in the whole EU architecture...

BTW that ruling was too dense. Do you have a synthesized version which gives the key points decided and which explains in normal language what the impact is on the parties?

	20-11-2001 21:41									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

"Chill Roland, I'm joking around."

As I said, you're a riot.

"A serious seduction would be mounted more stealthily..."

I'm afraid you're confusing me with Ted the Stricher....

"I don't know wether the UK isbetter off in/out of the EU (despite the problems involved with being in it...there are negative consequences of being "outside the wall", especially when all your neighbors are inside it.)"

And within NAFTA there'd still be a wall to the US. NAFTA is about like good ol' EFTA, and it's a joke compared to EU integration levels.

"I do maintain that free trade (even unilateral) is more beneficial to any nation than protectionism. And there is a lot of "finky" protectionism in the whole EU architecture..."

Internally ?

"BTW that ruling was too dense."

In short, if you have a registered trade mark, you can limit the distribution of trade marked goods. Eg, no Gucci stuff at a Walmart "Wühltisch" (table with discounted items in one big mesh). Who wants to distribute then needs a consent; this case was about what does not constitute implied (vs expressive) consent. Levis had a system of selective distribution, and this case was all about how explicit a trade mark owner has to make that, and whether distributors can rely on implied consents etc.

	20-11-2001 22:00									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Roland In short, if you have a registered trade mark, you can limit the distribution of trade marked goods. Eg, no Gucci stuff at a Walmart "Wühltisch" (table with discounted items in one big mesh). Who wants to distribute then needs a consent; this case was about what does not constitute implied (vs expressive) consent. Levis had a system of selective distribution, and this case was all about how explicit a trade mark owner has to make that, and whether distributors can rely on implied consents etc.

Let me play that back. What they are saying is that the supplier can stop people from reselling goods they've bought EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T PUT RESALE RESTRICTIONS in the sale contract. In a sense, the buyer doesn't fully own the products he's bought.

1. Have I translated the implication of this accurately?

2. (For reference) How would something like this be decided in the US?

3. (Leaving aside the intricate written law issues) How do you think situations like this SHOULD BE decided? If you were King? Should somebody who's bought a good be allowed to resell it freely (provided he has not contractually agreed not to) or should the trademark owner have some rights over his goods at all times?

4. What are the implications for consumers? Can this kind of control of the distribution system be used for price discrimination. And as such should the governement actively discourage these arrangements instead of suppporting them and even strengthening them by saying no contract is required.

	20-11-2001 22:29									#23
	Suffering from ads?

"In a sense, the buyer doesn't fully own the products he's bought."

Right, he does not own the trade mark. So he can not sell them under (here: the Levi's) trade mark.

"2. (For reference) How would something like this be decided in the US?"

No idea. In the details, Trade mark law is something for specialists and I'm not among them. Fortunately. Don't expect much difference in principle though....

"Should somebody who's bought a good be allowed to resell it freely (provided he has not contractually agreed not to) or should the trademark owner have some rights over his goods at all times?"

Well you could always break a chain of contracts securing exclusive or selective distribution. Takes one offender, and those buying from him down the chain would get off. The protection of registered trade marks goes a bit further.

"4. What are the implications for consumers?"

I'd say, "hotly contested". Many issues with trade marks are similar to say patent problems.

	20-11-2001 22:42									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Levis is being slimy by saying they are doing this for the consumer when they are doing this to protect their image as a luxery jean.

They are my favorite blue jeans, but at nearly $40 a pop, forget it. Lees, Wrangler, and Gap are just as good at a little more than half the price.

	20-11-2001 22:43									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This is an interesting area of sublety. I would agree that the buyer doesn't own the trademark. So he can't produce the items (same as a copyright or patent). But it seems like he ought to be able to resell the ITEM. (Same as copyright or patent.) Of course advertising would be a little bit of a sticky issue...

	20-11-2001 22:45									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Levis is being slimy by saying they are doing this for the consumer when they are doing this to protect their image as a luxery jean.

Well, exactly...

quote: They are my favorite blue jeans, but at nearly $40 a pop, forget it. Lees, Wrangler, and Gap are just as good at a little more than half the price.

Exactly - it's the consumer's choice. No-one's forcing you to pay $40 or £40 for a pair of jeans when you could pick them up for under ten.

	20-11-2001 22:50									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Levis is being slimy by saying they are doing this for the consumer when they are doing this to protect their image as a luxery jean. They are my favorite blue jeans, but at nearly $40 a pop, forget it. Lees, Wrangler, and Gap are just as good at a little more than half the price.

Che, it's even more insidious than that. They are price discriminating. (Trying to take all the consumer surplus... not just the monopolist's profit-maximizing price amount.) As such, they have to try to prevent arbitrage...and tying up the distribtion channels is one way to do this. What's beautiful about this ruling is they don't even have to go to that effort of creating special lock-up contracts. This ruling says that they can always control resale of theiri products, even to people they have no contractual relationship with.


Practical note: Eddy Buaer jeans are very comfortable and look good and cost 50% of Levi's...

	20-11-2001 23:01									#28
	Remove this text

EU! EU ! EU!
(THAT should bring back memories from the other side of the Atlantic!)

case closed

	20-11-2001 23:06									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

"This ruling says that they can always control resale of theiri products, even to people they have no contractual relationship with."

Ehm... guess this didn't get clear. Only within the limits of EEA exhaustion. The issue is about "grey" or "parallel" imports from outside the EEA... (international exhaustion).

As a sidenote I found one reference to the US where it seems grey imports are legal but need to be identified as such. Might be tricky in practice, but could be a reasonable compromise.

	20-11-2001 23:14									#30
	Put an end to popups!

Sounds like the companies are just trying to prevent arbitrage. I don't see much reason for the government to bend over to help this...