26-11-2001 11:46									#1
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Are draft dodgers traitors?

Personally, I think they are to be applauded, people willing to stand up to the federal government. In that sense I applaud Bill Clinton, and I can't believe I just said that

A little food for thought: In the Civil War, almost 300,000 New Yorkers were drafted. Under 6000 of those actually drafted ended up serving. 40,000 didn't report, and most of the rest either bought or obtained exemptions. When I rail against the damnyankees, I think I can safely exclude most New Yorkers for what they did .

	26-11-2001 11:50									#2
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Ambiguous question.
No, not all draft dodgers are traitors, and some are.
Every dog is an animal, bit not every animal is a dog.

	26-11-2001 11:52									#3
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Well, so in your opinion, in what case would draft dodging be justified?

My blanket definition, for purposes of this poll, of a draft dodger is someone who avoids military service for any reason whatsoever, ranging from being a coward, to taking a stand for civil liberty, to physical or family inability, to anything else, but with less emphasis on the inability part.

	26-11-2001 11:56									#4
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, so in your opinion, in what case would draft dodging be justified? My blanket definition, for purposes of this poll, of a draft dodger is someone who avoids military service for any reason whatsoever, ranging from being a coward, to taking a stand for civil liberty, to physical or family inability, to anything else, but with less emphasis on the inability part.

Don't you leave out how that equates to treason?
As an example, Muhammed Ali had very real convictions.
David Floyd is just running scared of losing his precious civil liberties.
Can you see the difference yet?
If not, it's your daddy's problem.

	26-11-2001 11:58									#5
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It becomes kind of academic if you volunteer, Dave. This is a great country. The country of Thomas Paine, Patrick Henry, Thomas Jefferson, Sid Meieir and Madonna. Give something back. Just volunteer. You won't need to have philosophy arguments about the draft. You'll be serving of your own accord.

	26-11-2001 12:03									#6
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As I've said in the past, and as GP is really saying, do something.
Don't want to serve in the military? Fine. Don't.
There are literally hundreds of other things you can do to pay back for the good life you've been granted.
Just don't be such a selfish taker all your life.

	26-11-2001 12:06									#7
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I agree. There are many things one can do to give back. One of which would be an attempt to go into politics and ensuring that things such as drafts and other civil liberty violations don't take place.

And Slowwhand, I forgot about religious convictions. Of course, there's a very easy way to exploit that. I just created the religion of Davidism. It's just like Christianity, except that it says that being drafted is wrong. Looks like I have freedom of religion. Looks like if the government invalidates Davidism they are establishing a state religion, or religions. They can't do that. Hence, I can't be drafted.

	26-11-2001 12:07									#8
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Just because you're against the draft, shouldn't stop you from volunteering. Do it, man!

	26-11-2001 12:10									#9
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Sure. I'm all for an all-volunteer Army. I might actually join in an ideal society. However, we live in a society where soldiers are committed to UN Peacekeeping Actions, to foreign wars we have no business fighting. I agree, in principle, GP, but in practice I can't volunteer for the military because it would possibly put me in a position I can't agree with.

	26-11-2001 12:10									#10
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You know, Dave that last commetn about creating your own church came accross as at a 12 year level. Show some lakas and some love of this wonderful country. Go volunteer for the armed forces, big guy. When you're an old fart, you'll be glad that did.

	26-11-2001 12:11									#11
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What is this push for volunteering, GP .

Didn't you say the army is big enough already, without Dave into the mix ?

Personally, I'd never volunteer. And if the draft came back (for this war, at least), I think I might dodge. Have to look out for #1. That is what makes this country great... not just the ability, but the prodding to be selfish .

	26-11-2001 12:11									#12
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David, you're pathetic.
Tell your parents that some ass hole from Apolyton by way of Dallas said they did a piss poor job raising you.
That's all I have to say.

	26-11-2001 12:13									#13
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Oh...so if everything's perfect you'll play. Are all Libertarians against signing up (RIGHT NOW) for the armed forces?

	26-11-2001 12:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What is this push for volunteering, GP . Didn't you say the army is big enough already, without Dave into the mix ? Personally, I'd never volunteer. And if the draft came back (for this war, at least), I think I might dodge. Have to look out for #1. That is what makes this country great... not just the ability, but the prodding to be selfish .

It's become quite apparent that you're here for the milk and honey only, Imran.
There's no need to roll around in the stink.
It permiates your very being by now.

	26-11-2001 12:16									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What is this push for volunteering, GP . Didn't you say the army is big enough already, without Dave into the mix ? Personally, I'd never volunteer. And if the draft came back (for this war, at least), I think I might dodge. Have to look out for #1. That is what makes this country great... not just the ability, but the prodding to be selfish .

Imran...I learned your measure after I found out that you didn't have the balls to tell your folks about your non-muslim girlfriend because you might need to pay for your own grad school.

	26-11-2001 12:18									#16
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Point, set, and match GP.

	26-11-2001 12:18									#17
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GP, you miss my point: IN THEORY I would love to volunteer for the military, probably would go in as an Army officer in the infantry, if I had a choice. MY PROBLEM, though, is that I just cannot agree with dying or having others die for Jews, or Frenchmen, or Vietnamese, or Koreans, or Kuwaitis. Would I have volunteered for World War 2? Probably - my personal morality abhors genocide, etc., but more than that Japan did attack Pearl Harbor (the fact that FDR instigated it is a different argument). But would I support a draft in a WW2-like situation? Of course not - I can't push my morality on others.

And, as an old fart, I'm sure I'd be glad I had military service. Hell, I'm sure I'd be glad I had military service in 5 years (except for Basic, of course ). That still doesn't negate the fact that I refuse to put myself in a situation where I have to kill or die for a cause I don't support.

Slowwhand, I seriously can't understand what your problem with my viewpoint is.

	26-11-2001 12:20									#18
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That's right .

I want a good life for me and her. What is the point in standing up for some stupid thing, just for I dunno, 'peace of mind' , when there are much bigger fish to fry.

And Dave, Slow is simply a ****. Ignore him, he isn't worth the keyboard he types on.

	26-11-2001 12:21									#19
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You are a selfish spoiled brat, David.
Naturally you can't understand.
You're as far on the other end of the spectrum from me as is possible.
And no, I won't go into details because it's not necessary.
Besides, it would fly over your head.

	26-11-2001 12:23									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That's right . I want a good life for me and her. What is the point in standing up for some stupid thing, just for I dunno, 'peace of mind' , when there are much bigger fish to fry. And Dave, Slow is simply a ****. Ignore him, he isn't worth the keyboard he types on.

And you're a *****, Imran.
"Don't hate me or mine. We love the U.S.; we'll do anything."
Screw you.

	26-11-2001 12:26									#21
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I love this Ignore List feature. Is that pissant, Slow, talking again?

	26-11-2001 12:27									#22
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quote: You are a selfish spoiled brat, David. Naturally you can't understand. You're as far on the other end of the spectrum from me as is possible. And no, I won't go into details because it's not necessary. Besides, it would fly over your head.

OK, that's deserving of the first serious **** YOU I've given out in a while.

Who are you to tell me I can't understand? Who are you to imply that I'm too stupid to understand your refutations of my (and others') points? And who the hell are you to say that I'm definitively wrong no matter what?

If you knew anything about me, "spoiled brat" would be LAST on the list of things you would call me - why don't you ask devilmunchkin? I think she'll at least back me up that I'm not a spoiled brat, and we've met in person and talked on the phone. Or you could ask Tiamat, or Ramo, or Self-Biased, or Lefty Scaevola, or anyone else from here I've met in person and I'm fairly confident that of the many things I could be described as (certainly not all positive) "spoiled brat" isn't one of them!

	26-11-2001 12:27									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That's right . I want a good life for me and her. What is the point in standing up for some stupid thing, just for I dunno, 'peace of mind' , when there are much bigger fish to fry.

It's called truth, Imran. Strip the false pride off and put some guts in instead. People will notice the difference. You, too. Read A Sense of Honor.

	26-11-2001 12:30									#24
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A question: WHY should I?

Why should I get guts, when it would just make my life, in the long run (as well as the short run), very worse off?

	26-11-2001 12:32									#25
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GP, do you seriously get what I'm saying, though?

I'm asking because you're one of the other posters on my "Respect" list, otherwise I wouldn't really give a ****

	26-11-2001 12:33									#26
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quote: Are all Libertarians against signing up (RIGHT NOW) for the armed forces?

NO! They're not. I'm against the draft COMPLETELY, but I'm still serving voluntarily.

	26-11-2001 12:35									#27
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Imran. Think about it. I'm sure you realize that people will repect you more as a man of character and your added strength will be something to rely on.

	26-11-2001 12:40									#28
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Perhaps, but the alternative is much more appealing.

What does a man of character matter if he doesn't have the education to do what he really wants?

	26-11-2001 12:40									#29
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quote: Originally posted by connorkimbro quote: Are all Libertarians against signing up (RIGHT NOW) for the armed forces? NO! They're not. I'm against the draft COMPLETELY, but I'm still serving voluntarily.

Thank you, Connor.


This is a great nation. And we and our families are blessed to be in this special place. That men like Franklin, and Henry and Jefferson risked their lives to start for us...and that we still treasure today.

	26-11-2001 12:44									#30
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd GP, do you seriously get what I'm saying, though? I'm asking because you're one of the other posters on my "Respect" list, otherwise I wouldn't really give a ****

That's nice, Dave. I'll try to "reach you". This country is worth serving even if you don't agree with every single foreign policy decision. If you give something back, you won't regret it. And the odds are that your service will be spent doing things that you agree with.