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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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quote:
This is a great nation. And we and our families are blessed to be in this special place. That men like Franklin, and Henry and Jefferson risked their lives to start for us...and that we still treasure today. |
I agree completely.
And, connor, I'm certainly glad you are able to serve in the military - I applaud that. I am just unable to for the reasons I described above.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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quote:
The military isn't for everyone. |
And that's the thing. I'd love to go to West Point, work up to probably a Major or Lt. Colonel, put in my time - it'd certainly help my political aspiration, I think, but more than that I'd probably learn some valuable lessons, but the thing is, I just CAN'T. It'd be too hard for me to accept orders I didn't agree with morally or politically.
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Wraith
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Austin, Texas, USA
Aug 1999
time: 23:16
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--"Are draft dodgers traitors?"
Not necessarily. There are certainly valid reasons for not allowing yourself to be forced to fight, but there are also reasons that would fit the qualification of traitor.
--"Don't want to serve in the military? Fine. Don't."
Which is fine, as long as it applies. Selctive Service is still active, yes? Despite the name, you certainly can't select not to register, so this is still an issue.
I can't see it happening any time soon, however. Drafts are hugely unpopular, and even this war on terrorism isn't enough to justify it to the public. Politicans aren't too likely to risk it right now, but that's not to say it couldn't happen at some point.
--"I just created the religion of Davidism."
Careful. With a name like that you'll have the BATF and FBI beating down your door. 
--"Are all Libertarians against signing up (RIGHT NOW) for the armed forces?"
Not all, no. We can respect anyone willing to do so, however, and put their life on the line for the country. However, all Libertarians object to the draft, and there are some valid objections to current global politics that would prevent some from enlisting.
Wraith
"Liberty is always dangerous, but it is the safest thing we have."
-- Harry Emerson Fosdick
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Rufus T. Firefly
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is one way of saying it, though I prefer "mensch"
Sep 2000
time: 07:16
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To the best of my knowledge, the only time I've ever agreed with Slow is on his excellent "Best Car Chase" thread, and I don't think I've ever agreed with GP.
Until now.
The poll, which I'm not even bothering to answer because it's a false question (see Slow's first post for details), should actually read thus:
I'm against the draft because...
a) I'm against taking human life (i.e., I'm a conscientious objector)
b) I'm against putting myself in harm's way for my country (i.e., I'm a coward)
c) I believe that a free society should protect me, secure my rights, but never make any demands on me in return (i.e., I'm a selfish brat)
Pay your money, gents, and take your choice. But don't pretend choices b & c are honorable.
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Rogan Josh
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I wonder if GP and Slowwhand would support the draft or volunteer for service if they were Afghanis living under the Taliban?
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:16
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In the late '80s the military redefined conciencious objector status to opposition to all wars ever, and not merely to a current war. So, if you believed that WWII was a just war, you don't qualify. Even if this weren't the case, CO status is very, very hard to get, and the military will most likely court martial you, as they did to most of the COs during the Gulf War. Of course, if you really believe in something, you should be willing to go to jail for that belief. Since very few people agree with the foreign policy of this government allof the time, it is very probable that a soldier will be sent to fight for a cause that he or she finds morally abhorent.
However, despite my opposition to this government and its wars, I'd serve if drafted, not out of any sense of duty, but to be an anti-war organizer (earning myself either a trip to the brig or the frontline on an especially dangerous mission). One interesting side effect of drafted armies is that they have the occassional tendency to refuse to fight (i.e., strike). This happened on such a large scale during the Vietnam War that it was necessary to abolish the draft. The same phenomenon ended WWI (military strikes in Russia, Germany, and Austria). So, as long as the military brass remembers this, it is unlikely they will favor instituting a draft unless the US is physically threatened.
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Poppa Bear
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quote:
Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
To the best of my knowledge, the only time I've ever agreed with Slow is on his excellent "Best Car Chase" thread, and I don't think I've ever agreed with GP.
Until now.
The poll, which I'm not even bothering to answer because it's a false question (see Slow's first post for details), should actually read thus:
I'm against the draft because...
a) I'm against taking human life (i.e., I'm a conscientious objector)
b) I'm against putting myself in harm's way for my country (i.e., I'm a coward)
c) I believe that a free society should protect me, secure my rights, but never make any demands on me in return (i.e., I'm a selfish brat)
Pay your money, gents, and take your choice. But don't pretend choices b & c are honorable. |
Those who chose a) should also consider if the other party has any objection to taking your life and if they are willing to die to keep from fighting.
Since no one has been drafted in over twenty-five years I don't see why this question is really that important. 
I did serve by choice but it was to protect the future for my family, not to protect those who would be willing to live the rest of their lives in a concentration camp if it meant personal safety.
I oppose the draft because I feel safer with a military staffed by real men who are willing to fight to defend their nation than with one staffed with wimps who had to be forced to serve and would probably run when the **** hit the fan anyway.
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Rex Little
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Whether one is willing to serve in the military is a completely separate question from that which began this thread. The draft is slavery, pure and simple. A draft dodger is no more a traitor than a fugitive slave in the early years of this country was. (At least, he's not a traitor for dodging the draft; I suppose he could be one for other reasons.)
(I was in high school in the mid-60's, when the Vietnam war was ramping up. This thread brings back the embarrassing memory that at the time, I said that draft dodgers were traitors.)
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Seeker
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London Ontario
Jan 1970
time: 00:16
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KH: As a Canadian you know of the Conscription Crisis here during WWII
Mac: "Conscription if necessary, but not necessarilly conscription"
Conscription is always an evil. If you think there is some threat to your way of life and that joining the Army will help stop it, then go ahead.
But keep in mind that the Army is NOT a democracy.
By joining you have forfeited many rights so you had better have a DAMN good reason. I can respect anyone wouldn't want to join, it's a lot to give up for a freethinking person used to speaking their mind.
Sometimes though the situation is such that joining is a moral move (for example otherthrowing the Taliban), so you have to respect those who really do the 'no greater love' bit...just don't hand anyone the 'my country, right or wrong' line...
About the 'your country has done so much for you, you should give something back' JFK thing, yeah sure but it doesn't have to be killing (unless in a real WWII situation).
Also, in my situation I really can't recall the government doing all that much for us...the constant helicopters burning our crops? The RCMP raids? Where I grew up 'our society' gave me jack ****, certainly not peace, prosperity, and security. We had to fight for all those things ourselves. The only service I feel grateful for is the Ontario Student Loan Program. And the health plan. I have never been to hospital, but my grandmother has and I am grateful for that (shoddy, rude, inefficient as it was). A 'gift' unasked for, unwanted, and unappcrieated is no gift. Maybe if I had grown up in a law abiding, normal community instead of a self-sufficient survivalist commune I would feel differently.
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26-11-2001 12:46
That stuff doesn't mean ****. I've worked with the top 1%ers from Harvard Business School and I've worked with gritty old Navy cheifs who didn't finish high school. 
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