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Dr Spin
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What's the standard deviation? are 19,20,21 roughly equal?
How was draft selecton? Were all 18-25'ers grouped together? Which age had the largest population relative to the others?
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If the law is wrong, you not only have a right to break it, you have an obligation to break it. |
It's not your place to declare a law 'wrong'. We pay judges for that.
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Rex Little
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A question for the pro-draft crowd: would you be in favor of drafting policemen? After all, the survival of our country depends on them fully as much as on soldiers, and their lives are at greater risk than the lives of soldiers (except soldiers serving in the front lines of an actual shooting war).
If you favor drafting soldiers but not policemen, can you explain why?
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SlowwHand
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of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:16
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Have some statistics, and I'll leave it at that without flaming you Horse.
RACE AND ETHNIC BACKGROUND
88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian; 10.6% (275,000) were black; 1% belonged to other races.
86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasian (includes Hispanics); 12.5% (7,241) were black; 1.2% belonged to other races.
170,000 Hispanics served in Vietnam; 3,070 (5.2% of total) died there.
*** 70% of enlisted men killed were of Northwest European descent.
86.8% of the men who were killed as a result of hostile action were Caucasian; 12.1% (5,711) were black; 1.1% belonged to other races.
14.6% (1,530) of non-combat deaths were among blacks.
34% of blacks who enlisted volunteered for the combat arms.
Overall, blacks suffered 12.5% of the deaths in Vietnam at a time when the percentage of blacks of military age was 13.5% of the total population.
Religion of Dead: Protestant (64.4%); Catholic (28.9%); Other/None (6.7%).
SOCIO-ECONOMIC STATUS
Three-fourths had family incomes above the poverty level; 50% were from middle income backgrounds.
Some 23% of Vietnam vets had fathers with professional, managerial or technical occupations.
79% of the men who served in Vietnam had a high school education or better when they entered the military service. (63% of Korean War vets and only 45% of WWII vets had completed high school upon separation).
Deaths by region per 100,000 of population: South---31; West---29.9; Midwest---28.4; Northeast---23.5.
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Rex Little
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You misunderstood my question, Slow. (My fault; I can see that my wording was ambiguous.) I meant, do you favor drafting people to serve as policemen, the way people were drafted to be soldiers in Vietnam and other wars?
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Zylka
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Slowwhand = Rough n' tuff hardcore McStars&SpangledBurger no-whiner
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SlowwHand
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of The Cooler
Sep 1999
time: 23:16
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Well gawd, Z.
It's a little stupid for an Aussie to try and tell me about the U.S. involvement in S.E. Asia.
I mean, I'm Past Vice Commander for the American Legion, marching with the V.F.W. in the Christmas parade, and some Aussie is going to tell me about the U.S. military?
I don't think so.
Last edited by SlowwHand on 28-11-2001 at 07:11
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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Faelin-
quote:
CSA: First of all, we were merely taking back states that were rebelling. If this was a conquest, then so is the suppression of every other revolt in history. Oh, and if we had not had the draft, we would've lost the war. I suppose the millions of african americans who are alive today and are allowed to be citizens don't qualify as Americans who freedoms were saved? (Before anyone says, slavery was one of the leading causes. Initially there were several amendments which made the freed slaves equal with the rest of the country, but southerners had them repelased in the 70's. They did not gain full equality until the 60's. But irregardless, in a CAS which uses them as cheap labor, they'd never be anything greater than 2nd class citizens. At best). |
Bullshit. The United States of America was launching a war of aggression and conquest against the sovereign state of the Confederate States of America, comprised of 11 (would've been closer to 13 or 14 if the US hadn't illegally interfered with the will of the people) states formerly in the USA that seceded. Secession is a legal recourse for any state, for any reason, because nothing in the US Constitution prohibits secession, and nothing in the US Constitution allows the federal government to use military force to put down a legal secession. And no, the "millions of African Americans" DON'T count - they weren't alive at the time, and those who WERE alive at the time weren't allowed to vote, which was entirely legal. May not have been moral, but slavery and voting restrictions were certainly legal. The rest of what you say is not an argument, but rather an emotional appeal, so I won't bother with it.
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WW1: US ships were being attacked. I suppose protecting american sailors is a bad thing? if Germany hadn't started attacking and sinking our ships, we would have remained neutral. Read some history. Please. |
Really? Which ships? You possibly mean the Lusitania? That was a British ship, carrying munitions illegally from the US to Great Britain, and the German Embassy in the US put out warnings in newspapers warning against travelling in the Lusitania - warnings repressed by the Wilson administration. But if they were attacking our ships, it was justified, because they were either a)illegally supplying Britain/France with arms, or b)in a warzone carrying contraband. Either way, sinking of US ships by German U-Boats was justified - just as justified as the British blockade of Germany which starved civilians.
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WW2: Okay, here you're being blatantly hypocritical. First you say that no region of the USA has never been attacked, then you talk about how there were only "minor threats" to "outlying regions." Hawaii is was a US territory. Its inhabitants were US citizens. Japan had plans in the works to invade Australia,Alaska, Hawaii, and go down the pacific coast into California. Are we still in outlying regions?
Then there's Nazi Germany. Without the draft, the USA couldn't have had the manpower to win a two front war. We would either have a Europe ruled by the Nazis ofr the Communists. Expect the destruction of the USA to follow sometime in the next 20 or 30 years. |
I said, or at least meant, that no state or part of the Continental US had been attacked. Those colonies that were attacked, such as Wake, the Philippines, etc., were gained by the US through a period of imperialism, and I'd defy you to support the annexation and holding of the Philippines by the US when it was against the will of the Filipinos. However, I will grant you that Pearl Harbor was attacked - although that was legitimate self-defense and self-preservation on Japan's part fighting against FDR's economic embargo of Japan's vital strategic resources such as oil and scrap metal. Even with that in mind, though, I do support the war on Japan, once they attacked - a war which could have been fought by transferring the whole US Navy to the Pacific, relying on volunteers, of which there were plenty, and using the current and building US Navy to defeat Japan on the seas, possibly seize a few strategic outposts - which would be abandoned after the war - and then negotiating a peace among equals.
As to Nazi Germany, the US had no legitimate quarrel with them, although they certainly did with us due to things such as Lend-Lease and US warships escorting British convoys. But even assuming German victory over Russia and Britain (they had no way to invade Britain, that much was clear, and no way to logistically conquer and hold down Russia, which was equally clear - but just ASSUMING) then Germany STILL could not have directly threatened the USA, because all of Germany's resources were put into the Army, and to a lesser extent the Luftwaffe, rather than a surface navy necessary to bridge the Atlantic - and we still run into logistical problems with any invasion of the US you can dream up, it's just too far away.
Rand Al'Tor-
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No, I don't think the draftdodging is treason. Treason might be a good reply to the draft however. Any country that can decide to force it's citizens to work for them, ESPECIALLY the work being killing is not a free country and is not a country I would call my own.
Oh and regarding the rights. Something I DO agree with with the constitution (or was that the bill of rights) is that rights are not to be 'deserved' they are self-evident. EVERYONE should be able to speak freely, not just those who 'earned' it. if we start to say that you have to 'earn' your (constitutional) rights, where are you going to stop? |
 I agree completely.
Chris62-
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WW I was indeed one by US forces, but it is still unlikely the Central powers would have won the war without them, only prolonged it. The revolts you speak of were mainly Russia 1917, France 1917, Germany and Austria 1918 (there was also a small mutiny in the British forces in 1918). For the Central powers the war was already lost, so it hardly mattered, it knocked Russia out of the war (into 5 years of bloody civil war, go figure), and the French were able to calm the troops with better treatment (after a few executions). |
Chris, if you think that the Central Powers could not have won the war absent US intervention, you should really read up on Germany's Spring 1918 offensive. As a DIRECT result of the 2nd Battle of the Marne, and to a lesser extent Belleau Wood and a few other battles, all of which were fought at least equally by Americans as by Frenchmen and British, Germany was forced to cancel Operation Hagen, an even bigger offensive that could easily have forced multiple breaches in the French/British line, defeated the BEF, and enveloped and taken Paris. France was bled white, and the French military was sick of the war, whereas Germany was riding a morale high after knocking the Russians out of the war, and also having hundreds of thousands of new troops available from the Eastern Front. I DO think that the mutinies, on all sides, show how evil the draft was and is - forcing people to get into trenches and charge into machine gun fire for no reason concerning them is quite frankly morally reprehensible, outright murder.
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WW II. Sorry, but the USA was directly threatened, revisionist history here on the part of the fellow who posted that.
If Russia and europe had been defeated, the axis would indeed have come to the USA, so conscription was indeed needed. |
I've heard THIS bullshit before. Just explain to me HOW the Germans or Japanese could invade the US. Please. I'll probably end up laughing hysterically, but go ahead and try - impress me.
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Korea was a war of recalls, many men were indeed drafted and made up most of the forces involved.
Vietnam is a war in two pieces, the first part, 65-68 is a war of volunteers, the second, 68-72 is a war of draftees. |
That wasn't the point - the point was neither of these wars affected the freedom of those within the USA. And don't tell me that if the communists had won without a fight they would have invaded the US. Please don't tell me that.
GP-
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I haven't seen too much courage out of David, yet. I think we need to set the bar a little higher Horsie. Sucking down chili dogs and soft ice cream "Blasts" at the Waco Sonic don't do it for me...
Dave lives in a theoretical world. If everything were perfect he'd go to West Point and amaze us with his leadership. But America has strayed too far from the righteous path for Dave. It's not worth fighting for. I understand his point of view. I just don't agree with it. And certainly...he hasn't shown courage. He may have it. But we haven't seen it. |
Of course you haven't seen much courage out of me - they haven't tried to draft me yet. I promise you if that ever happens it'll be even money whether I move to Montana and join anti-government forces (stereotyping, you know what I mean), leave the country, or just go to Washington and start popping Congressmen.
Dr. Spin-
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If you don't want to be drafted, that's fine. I would probably advocate the stripping of citizenship of anyone who avoids such a draft, rather than jail. |
Fine. Just show me in the Constitution where it says a prerequisite for citizenship is agreeing to the draft and every other unconstitutional law the government tries to enforce.
che-
quote:
If the law is wrong, you not only have a right to break it, you have an obligation to break it. |
Slow-
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Another thing people forget are the Coast Guard.
You want to talk about people screwed? That's them.
Join the Coast Guard because they thought it would keep them from going.
wham! Patrolling rivers in country. Sitting ducks. |
I really do hope you see a problem in using the Coast Guard (not to mention the National Guard) in fighting foreign wars.
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28-11-2001 03:45
, BTW, the age 18 group isn't even in the top 8).
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