28-11-2001 10:02									#151
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quote: Tell that to the Freedom Riders and MLK.

If I saw them breaking the law that our elected government passed, I would.

quote: This government has been in the past, and is now, destructive towards human freedom.

Ah, so you're a melodrama queen?

quote: A young black American was not more likely to die in Viet Nam than his white counterpart.

...but the son of a senator or oil millionaire...

	28-11-2001 10:08									#152
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quote: Fine. Just show me in the Constitution where it says a prerequisite for citizenship is agreeing to the draft and every other unconstitutional law the government tries to enforce.

It's not unconstitutional until the judge says it is. Oh, and my buddy in law school assures me that not all law is contained in that doc. I assure you that there are many bad things you may do to land you stripped of rights in jail, that you will not find in the Const.

	28-11-2001 10:10									#153
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As to Nazi Germany, the US had no legitimate quarrel with them,

You don't think the fact that they declared war on us gave us a legitimate quarrel with them.

P.S. How is the US refusing to finance someone else's war of agression something worth of criticism? I'll grant you that it gave Japan reason to be mad at us but I fail to see why you have a problem with it.

	28-11-2001 10:11									#154
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Dr Spin, the absence of a judicial decision does not make a law Constitutional or unconstitutional - the fact of whether or not a law IS Const or unconst is what makes it so.

And granted, not all law is laid out in the Constitution - the Constitution is meant to be a check on federal powers, and since prisons are primarily state facilities, of course it would not devote much space to them in the Constitution.

	28-11-2001 10:13									#155
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quote: You don't think the fact that they declared war on us gave us a legitimate quarrel with them. P.S. How is the US refusing to finance someone else's war of agression something worth of criticism? I'll grant you that it gave Japan reason to be mad at us but I fail to see why you have a problem with it.

Before Hitler stupidly declared war, we had no legitimate quarrel with Nazi Germany, and if he had NOT declared war, we would NOT have had any quarrel with them. Furthermore, we had committed acts of war against Germany to begin with, not the other way around.

And there is a difference between financing someone's war, and refusing to allow American (or other nations') companies to engage in legitimate trade with that nation.

	28-11-2001 10:17									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Spin ...but the son of a senator or oil millionaire...

I gave you the socioeconomic data that I have. (read back.) Sorry I don't have a study on millionare sons. Certainly you could come up with examples of politicians who had sons die in Viet Nam. Or millionaires. Or movie stars.

My Uncle did 3 Nam tours and he was not from a poor family.

	28-11-2001 10:22									#157
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd and if he had NOT declared war, we would NOT have had any quarrel with them.

Off in hypothetical world, again, Dave? "If ifs and buts...were candy and nuts, it'd be Xmas every day."

Who cares what the case would be if he hadn't declared war??

	28-11-2001 10:25									#158
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GP you're still not addressing my point that we had no legitimate quarrel with Germany other than the declaration of war, which we brought on ourselves by being the aggressors. Sorta like saying Germany had a grievance against Poland because Poland declared war on Germany following German attacks on Poland.

	28-11-2001 10:34									#159
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So if libertarian Dave was living in Germany, he would say that Germany was justified in attacking the US? Come on. Are you applying a different standard here?

	28-11-2001 10:35									#160
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quote: Originally posted by GP You got some better statistics? Bring 'em on. We'll look at 'em. Otherwise...I don't know what else I can do for you.

Nah - I was just idly trolling. In the end I just wanted to see how many times you and Sloww would reply

I'm glad the thread has now moved on to other subjects.

But thanks to both of you for the stats - I found them interesting.

	28-11-2001 10:36									#161
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quote: the fact of whether or not a law IS Const or unconst is what makes it so.

And how would you propose to decide that without a judge? We've DEFINED constitutionality based on whatever the judges are saying right now. Otherwise what's your source? Stone tablets?

quote: Sorry I don't have a study on millionare sons. Certainly you could come up with examples of politicians who had sons die in Viet Nam. Or millionaires. Or movie stars.

I can come up with almost anything. It won't be factual though.

Of course, I was being a wise-ass. But you knew that.

	28-11-2001 10:41									#162
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GP, I'm saying that Germany had a legitimate causus beli against the US, because of some of the actions of the US against Germany, while the US had none against Germany.

Dr, some laws are or would be CLEARLY unconstitutional, such as a law saying I DON'T have freedom of speech, no matter what a judge says.

	28-11-2001 10:44									#163
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd GP, I'm saying that Germany had a legitimate causus beli against the US, because of some of the actions of the US against Germany, while the US had none against Germany. Dr, some laws are or would be CLEARLY unconstitutional, such as a law saying I DON'T have freedom of speech, no matter what a judge says.

How was Germany right to declare war on us? How does this match your Libertarian principles?

	28-11-2001 10:47									#164
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How was it right for the US to attack German U-Boats, ship war materials to Britain and Russia, or escort British convoys into war zones?

I never said Germany was RIGHT to declare war on the US, only that they had a reason to, that the US lacked.

	28-11-2001 10:48									#165
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quote: Dr, some laws are or would be CLEARLY unconstitutional, such as a law saying I DON'T have freedom of speech, no matter what a judge says.

There are several confounders. Define 'freedom of speech'. We've pulled libel and slander from the mix. They're not protected. Someday, a judge may decide the anti-slander laws are unconstitutional... but not today.

	28-11-2001 10:50									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Spin And how would you propose to decide that without a judge? We've DEFINED constitutionality based on whatever the judges are saying right now. Otherwise what's your source? Stone tablets? I can come up with almost anything. It won't be factual though. Of course, I was being a wise-ass. But you knew that.

Spin...the service records don't list people's "family socioeconomic background". But a proper academic study was done of all the casualties using zip code of home of record (zip codes have "socioeconomic ratings" from census data on income levels.) That is your best source of hard analysis. I quoted the major findings earlier. Look back and you'll see it. If you want more you'll have to pull the survey. (You know how I love good published peer review science...head on down to the library...I think you still owe me a few articles! )

Anyway, not sure if you read my earlier congrats for becoming an Intel weenie. Congrats.

	28-11-2001 10:50									#167
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Stop being unnecessarily obtuse. You are entirely missing the point, which is a law is Constitutional or unconstitutional on the basis of the law itself, not on the basis of what a judge says - sure, the judge is the arbiter of the Constitutionality, but judges make mistakes, and there is only one correct interpretation of the Constitution.

	28-11-2001 10:53									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Nah - I was just idly trolling. In the end I just wanted to see how many times you and Sloww would reply I'm glad the thread has now moved on to other subjects. But thanks to both of you for the stats - I found them interesting.

I kinda clewed into that thing as I was typing the last post. Read Stolen Valor. Well worth your time. Should be able to get it at a large library...if the kangaroos haven't eaten all the books.

	28-11-2001 10:55									#169
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The guy sounds like some sort of kook - which again casts doubt upon your stats.

*runs*

	28-11-2001 10:57									#170
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd How was it right for the US to attack German U-Boats, ship war materials to Britain and Russia, or escort British convoys into war zones? I never said Germany was RIGHT to declare war on the US, only that they had a reason to, that the US lacked.

"legitimate causus belli"

So was Germany right to do so or not?

And we DIDN'T DECLARE WAR ON THEM UNTIL THEY DID ON US.

	28-11-2001 10:58									#171
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quote: Anyway, not sure if you read my earlier congrats for becoming an Intel weenie. Congrats.

Thanks. They decided I was too old to go back SW. Intel was my last choice... I almost would have preferred CE.

quote: but judges make mistakes, and there is only one correct interpretation of the Constitution.

And whose might that be? Yours? Jesus'?

	28-11-2001 10:59									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The guy sounds like some sort of kook - which again casts doubt upon your stats. *runs*

Yeah...you have to be to write that kind of book. It's not a screed. It's packed with footnotes. You can go back to source documents.

	28-11-2001 11:01									#173
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Dr, not necessarily mine, although I think I have it more nearly nailed than most others. Personal opinion though, so don't flame me for it.

GP, Germany was wrong to declare war in that it was strategically stupid, and the situation should have been resolved through negotiation, although I do not find it morally reprehensible for them to declare war on a nation which was basically attacking them without declaring war.

And of course they declared war first - Congress and the American people didn't WANT war with Germany. So to get around the Constitution FDR simply ordered the Navy to escort Allied convoys and sink German U-Boats, and allowed war materials to be shipped to a belligerent nation without trading equally with all nations.

	28-11-2001 11:02									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Spin I can come up with almost anything. It won't be factual though. Of course, I was being a wise-ass. But you knew that.

Well...the examples would be factual. They'd just be examples. Not a multivariable regression.

I knew you were being a wise ass. Still got the sailboat?

	28-11-2001 11:03									#175
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quote: And we DIDN'T DECLARE WAR ON THEM UNTIL THEY DID ON US.

He has a point. There may not have been a formal declaration, but we were certainly funding and equipping their enemies. That's an act of war if ever there was one.

quote: I think you still owe me a few articles!

You're probably right. Now I have access to the e-print server

Bring it on!

	28-11-2001 11:06									#176
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quote: Still got the sailboat?

Ya. I refuse to close her for the winter. Yesterday was in the 60's. Come up to New York sometime, I'll take you around the south shore of LI.

	28-11-2001 11:08									#177
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Dr, not necessarily mine, although I think I have it more nearly nailed than most others. Personal opinion though, so don't flame me for it. GP, Germany was wrong to declare war in that it was strategically stupid, and the situation should have been resolved through negotiation, although I do not find it morally reprehensible for them to declare war on a nation which was basically attacking them without declaring war. And of course they declared war first - Congress and the American people didn't WANT war with Germany. So to get around the Constitution FDR simply ordered the Navy to escort Allied convoys and sink German U-Boats, and allowed war materials to be shipped to a belligerent nation without trading equally with all nations.

Dave-O.

Germany started the whole shebang off by invading her neighbors. That's what Libertarian Dave would say were he lilving in Germany. He wouldn't consider those US actions to be grounds for attacking the US, since Hitler had started a war against his neighbors.

Also wrt to just one part of your examples. Failure to trade with a nation or a decision of who to trade with is not a cause for war. the true libertarian believes in unilateral free trade. (I.e. I have no import/export restrictions regardless of what other countries do. Read Milton Freedman's Free to Choose for a discussion of this.) So somebody trading with my war neighbor is not a grounds for war. Just as Japan trading only with Dutch was not a legitimate casue for Perry to open Japan.

	28-11-2001 11:08									#178
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quote: Dr, not necessarily mine, although I think I have it more nearly nailed than most others. Personal opinion though, so don't flame me for it.

Not trying to 'flame', I'm legitimately curious. Why do you think there is some etherial 'correct' interpretation out there?

	28-11-2001 11:13									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Spin You're probably right. Now I have access to the e-print server Bring it on!

I think I just asked you for citations a few years ago. I was ready to go look em up myself in Phys rev or whatever. But of course more recently actual articles would be a lot easier...

Anyway...I don't need 'em. Just trying to get one up on a super braniac physicist.

	28-11-2001 11:19									#180
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GP, we aren't talking about Germany vs. Poland, or France, or Britain, or Russia - those are irrelevant to the point. They had nothing to do with war between Germany and the US. War between Germany and Britain did not, and should not have, automatically involved the US or made Germany culpable for war with the US. That is preposterous.

And regarding trade, Lend-Lease had nothing to do with trade. Everyone involved knew damn well it was the US giving tanks, planes, materials, etc., to Russia and Britain. It was simply the US being the "Arsenal for Democracy" and finding a way to wage war when Congress and the American people didn't want to declare war.