27-11-2001 19:37									#91
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Oh Giancarlo, you don't have the vaguest nation of the issues involved.

But anyway, using this logic, surely the US should be returned to the British

	27-11-2001 19:42									#92
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Where is Giancarlo from nowadays? Is it Spain, Portugal, Argentina or America.

	27-11-2001 19:44									#93
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From up his own arse Matt

	27-11-2001 19:46									#94
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I still think he is EVC or a DL of some kind. People like him surely can't exist.

	27-11-2001 19:51									#95
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Leave it up to the people who live there(vote ).

Still its difficult to believe that the mighty british empire is caving into a demand from a shadow confederation of nations!

	27-11-2001 19:53									#96
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I don't think they are giving into demands. Most of the people in Gibraltar want to stay under the empire, don't they?

Why not just hold a massive vote for the people?

	27-11-2001 20:29									#97
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"The Rock remained in Arab hands until an unexpected attack by the Spanish in 1309. This brief occupation was interrupted in 1333 and again reverted to Moorish control, but finally the Spanish reclaimed it and it was to remain that way for a further 240 years. In this time they developed Gibraltar as an important military and naval base.

Britain became interested in Gibraltar in the time of Oliver Cromwell, but the opportunity to capture it did not arise until the war of the Spanish Succession. It was then seized by a combined Anglo-Dutch fleet under Admiral Rooke, and British sovereignty was then formalised in 1713 by The Treaty of Utrecht.

Gibraltar thus became a British Garrison and in 1830 was declared a colony. "

Quite why these tiny places want to stay British is a puzzle. This one particularly so as I don't think Gibraltar has a viable economy with the decline of the importance of its shipping facilities unless many folk who live there work across the border in Spain.

But anyway, I am not one who says that small populations can dictate such matters. If the UK and Spain agree to adjust their borders that is a matter for all the people of both countries. OK the views of those who live on the Rock should weigh more heavily than, say, one man one vote - but not so heavily that the wishes of 30,000 should outweigh the wishes of 90 million.

It has taken us a while to shed our empire. By and large I think we have done it gracefully. Gibraltar is one of the sillier survivals. If Spain will do what is needful to protect the way of life of its people then the sooner sovereignty passes to them the better. And the people can then vote with their feet.

	27-11-2001 20:47									#98
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And just to clarify the thing about the EU: no one apart from the UK and Spain gives a flying fart about where Gibraltar belongs. Most EU law is applicable in Gibraltar anyway. The only EU interest is in getting the two sides to a compromise, as they (esp Spain) tend to block the Council sometimes on some issues by making a Gibraltar solution a sort of precondition for agreeing. When everyone else is pissed off they then track back...

	27-11-2001 21:18									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Well not any more it ain't... who wants to rule the French anyways? Ugh.

You're quite right - just like Gib isn't Spanish anymore!

quote: We need more land.

Spain is almost twice the size of the UK. The UK has almost twice the pop of Spain - you greedy bastards!

Besides Gib is a gigantic rock sticking out of the sea, with people jammed all round the sides - quite how they got 30,000 people living there is beyond me. Must be all those illegal Spanish immigrants searching for a better life...

quote: You never will see that. Basque is part of Spain and the ETA are unpopular. It will never be granted independence because it has been part of Spain for a very long time.

Will Gib has been part of the UK for a very long time - by your logic we shouldn't give it up. Thanks for clearing that up - either Gianny supports the UK position, or he's a gigantic hypocrite!

No prizes for guessing which of those possibilities I would put my money on!

quote: It is rightfully ours!

No - Spain ceded it to Britain in 1713. It is rightfully ours!

	27-11-2001 21:30									#100
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Why you Brits care about it so much anyway?

A waste of space with a bunch of rocky cliffs and packs of wild monkeys is all.

You got plenty of other nice places like Carribean Islands that you can have anyway...

	27-11-2001 21:47									#101
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"A waste of space with a bunch of rocky cliffs and packs of wild monkeys is all."

Sounds like a mix of Rocky Mountains and the White House...

	27-11-2001 22:46									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Well I take this opportunity to say that Brits, despite their power (former and present) are very pleasant and not at all irritating, in contrast with, for example, the french. [SIZE=3][FONT=times new roman]Look : we've told you before, you'll just have to accept you've lost your Marbles

This is an obvious fact.
We do, however, want the marbles of Parthenon back so we can somehow make up for it.
The necessity for their return became even more apparent after you decided to bleach them thus removing their original color and so partially destroying them. It is one thing cleaning a floor and quite another cleaning ancient marbles... ts, ts,ts
And Elgin (sp?) STOLE them (detail but it has to be mentioned)!
Don't worry, people would still visit the British Museum if you return them to their rightful owners (I think )
We will take back Aphrodite of Mylos from the Louvre Museum too if that would make you feel better

quote: Athens was a self absorbed citystate that lead the Greeks to their ultimate humilation under the heal of the great king of Macedonia.

I think Athens failed to realize that the era of City States was over and tried desperately to clunch into it (much like Britain - nation state - and the EU )
Greeks exchanged power frequently between themsleves. Athens, Sparta, Macedonia etc.

quote: If however the great and noble Spartans had lead, we would all be speaking greek today.

You do.

	27-11-2001 23:35									#103
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Idiocy. It's British territory, let it remain so.

If anything, have a vote. If the vote shows that they want to join Spain, fine. If the EU wants to gain some credibility, this is not the way to do it.

Isn't the population of Gibraltar mainly British?

	27-11-2001 23:41									#104
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quote: Originally posted by orange Idiocy. It's British territory, let it remain so. If anything, have a vote. If the vote shows that they want to join Spain, fine. If the EU wants to gain some credibility, this is not the way to do it. Isn't the population of Gibraltar mainly British?

Yup about 30,000 limeys and a few hundred Ock'naads and Spaniards thrown into the mix.

	27-11-2001 23:58									#105
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Actually the French sold them 36 Dassault Mirage 2000's and a few hundred Exocets....But that was before the coup. No blame to either partys (America or France)

There were several coups (golpe in Spanish). The coup overthorwing Isabel Perón is the relevent one, which occured March 24, 1976. By the time of the war, there had been a second putting General Videla in charge of the country. Those Exocets were sold after one of the coups, at least (Carter had cut Argentina off because of their massive human rights violations--40,000 dead and disapeared).

	28-11-2001 03:32									#106
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There were several coups (golpe in Spanish). The coup overthorwing Isabel Perón is the relevent one, which occured March 24, 1976. By the time of the war, there had been a second putting General Videla in charge of the country. Those Exocets were sold after one of the coups, at least (Carter had cut Argentina off because of their massive human rights violations--40,000 dead and disapeared).

Ya I remember watching a show on PBS. The dictatorship was extremely hard on the Communist miners.....and the population in general.

Ya but Exocets were french made. They bought them via france.....hell the french gave everybody arms. Iraq got Mirage's and shitloads of mechanized french artilerry

	28-11-2001 03:35									#107
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Ya I remember watching a show on PBS. The dictatorship was extremely hard on the Communist miners.....and the population in general. Ya but Exocets were french made. They bought them via france.....hell the french gave everybody arms. Iraq got Mirage's and shitloads of mechanized french artilerry

The dictatorship was cruel.. and I disagree with its tactics.

The Argentinians actually had a nuclear weapons exchange program with Iraq in the 80s, until the US put a lid on that. And most of the Argentine airforce is either decent A-4s and Mirage IIIs.

	28-11-2001 03:48									#108
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I wonder whether all those Spaniards clamoring for Gibraltar would be as enthusiastic to give Ceuta "back" to Morocco.

	28-11-2001 04:18									#109
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Taking a page from the 'Omar guide to international diplomacy' How about we have Tony Blair and whoever is running Spain have a boxing match in Gibraltar, the winner's nation keeps the rock.

	28-11-2001 04:28									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Par4 Taking a page from the 'Omar guide to international diplomacy' How about we have Tony Blair and whoever is running Spain have a boxing match in Gibraltar, the winner's nation keeps the rock.

I think *insert British poster* vs Giancarlo would be much more entertaining.

Edit - never put things between <> if you want them to appear in your post...

	28-11-2001 04:30									#111
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The dictator before Videla was a ferocious anti-semite, and many Jews were tortured, disapeared, and exiled. Apparently they thought that there was a world-wide Jewish conspiracy to destroy Argentina (why the Jews would care about Argentina is beyond me).

Knowing a communist could get you tortured or disappeared. The '76-'83 military governments were probably the worst in Latin American history for sheer viciousness. Guatemala tops it only because that government had more time (30) years to kill it's 100,000 people. El Salvador killed 70,000 of it's own in ten years, but 5,000 of those people were killed by the rebels, so Argentina tops it by an additional 1,666 people per year.

	28-11-2001 04:33									#112
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I thought the number for Guatemala was closer to 200 000 than 100 000.