27-11-2001 00:45									#1
	Gibraltor to be given to Spain in the next decade Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Wow I watched BBC last night. Apparently Spanish and British diplomats are negotiating it. It has been a thorn in the side of Spanish-Anglo Relations. And the EU has been pushing england to hand it over.....

Anyway hard to believe. The British empire.....once the mightiest and most feared on earth just 50 years ago has been reduced to this

	27-11-2001 00:52									#2
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Why reduced? Isn't the value of Gibraltar much lower in the age of air power?

	27-11-2001 00:55									#3
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It should be up to the population of Gibraltar who they want to be governed by.

	27-11-2001 00:55									#4
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Why reduced? Isn't the value of Gibraltar much lower in the age of air power?

This is true. But its still would be very strategic in the event of war.

Also I meant 'reduced' by taking demands from the EU/spanish of all nations

Oi! King George III would tell you it looked good on the world map

He must be rolling in his grave.....

Gibraltor should stay british in my opinion. Or be given independence..... (not a bad idea? Autonomy)

	27-11-2001 00:57									#5
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Why reduced? Isn't the value of Gibraltar much lower in the age of air power?

reduced as in taking demands from Spain/EU.

I would think that since the province is all anglo. Independence would work alot better.


King George III must be rolling in his grave

	27-11-2001 00:59									#6
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Crap i didnt think that first post made it (Server full error)

	27-11-2001 01:01									#7
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I think this means that the British Empire now consists of the Falklands and Pitcairn Island.

	27-11-2001 01:03									#8
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PH - then they would be under british rule . do-h.

anyways , It should be spanish, in my opinion. not that it would matter , when the glorious EU will come.

	27-11-2001 01:04									#9
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...and Diego Garcia.

Even the French still hold St. Pierre and Miquelon.

	27-11-2001 01:09									#10
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Its just difficult to think that British empire 50 years ago consisted of 1/3 of the world.

anyway I would tell the people at EU to keep there mouths shut and let the population of Gibralt'a'r hold a referendum on this issue.

British also have bermuda. (For what its worth)

	27-11-2001 01:14									#11
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Well I take this opportunity to say that Brits, despite their power (former and present) are very pleasant and not at all irritating, in contrast with, for example, the french.

They are not plagued by rampant nationalism, they are informed about other peoples' positions and not at all chauvinistic.

Especially our Apolyton bunch has surprised me pleasently more than one time.

Truly worthwhile people to be around (minus exceptions of course .

They don't try to show - off their country like the French do, they are very pragmatic, focused and (for greek standards) unbelivably organised.

I remember my english teachers at my secondary school. *they taught history and geography).

They were the best teachers I've had.

Greek teachers were plagued with their own misconceptions and trying to impose them on you for no good reason. And they didn't work very hard.

French teachers simply didn't care about the lessons. They were much more interested in talking about life, relationships, screw ups and wonders in ones life than actually teaching the lesson.

And during my journeys to England and France, the difference is staggering. The french just try to demonstrate how «superior» they think they are. The english are much more «cosmopolitan» and polite.

Of course such generalizations are doomed to do injustice to many people but that's what I've gathered.

	27-11-2001 01:15									#12
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What is it about Spanish speakers that make them want British territory?

The only thing the EU has stuck its nose in about is the tax haven offshore status it has. Amusing given that it is not offshore.

	27-11-2001 01:16									#13
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Because we stole it from them?

	27-11-2001 01:24									#14
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I say make it a commonwealth and give it independence. hell...its only 40,000 people or so anyway.

I think its stupid to allow a shadow, powerless confederation of nations like EU meddle in these kind of things.

btw- Was Gibraltor taken by force or what? Seems to me that during World War 2 all it would of taken was a thousand spanish or Italian troops to take it. Then the British Empire would be cut from supplys from India and middle east.

	27-11-2001 01:27									#15
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Well if the populace want the status quo to remain, then logically, that is what should happen. I can hardly see the Spanish attempting an invasion.

	27-11-2001 01:31									#16
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory btw- Was Gibraltor taken by force or what? Seems to me that during World War 2 all it would of taken was a thousand spanish or Italian troops to take it. Then the British Empire would be cut from supplys from India and middle east.

Well, given that the spanish were neutral, the Italians had lost their fleet at Taranto and the British were basically unchallenged on the surface, it would have been a difficult proposal to actually get the troops there in one piece.

IIRC Gibraltar was taken by force by the British from the Spanish either during or just before the Napoleonic wars.

	27-11-2001 01:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Bugs ****ing Bunny Because we stole it from them?

1) Tough on them.

2) The treaty of Utrecht clearly states that it belongs to the British for ever.

3) In the last referendum only 44 people voted to rejoin Spain.

4) Gibraltar has been British territory for 300 years, it was Spanish for only 250 years

	27-11-2001 01:46									#18
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Well, given that the spanish were neutral, the Italians had lost their fleet at Taranto and the British were basically unchallenged on the surface, it would have been a difficult proposal to actually get the troops there in one piece. IIRC Gibraltar was taken by force by the British from the Spanish either during or just before the Napoleonic wars.

IIRC, Gibraltar was taken during one of the wars during the run-up to the American Revolution.

	27-11-2001 01:51									#19
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It was taken in 1704.

The treaty handing it over was signed in 1713.

	27-11-2001 02:08									#20
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Like I said "or just before". What's 80 years or so between friends?

	27-11-2001 02:16									#21
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I don;t think the EU would care less to which one Gilbratar belonged.

Point is to eliminate it as a tax heaven.

Maybe the spanish have been more co-operative in this pursuit and the Brits want it to remain as a tax heaven?

The OECD report specifically mentions Gilbratar as a tx heaven aminsgt 26 other territories and countries I think.

It is an anomaly in the unified market. Plus with the terrorism issues the international community has become very determined in supervising and if possible eliminating tax heavens.

Punisitve actions will be taken in 2003 if northing's changed.

	27-11-2001 02:17									#22
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Bad news. It should stay British.

	27-11-2001 02:29									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Roman Bad news. It should stay British.

No it shouldn't.

It belongs with the rightful owners.

	27-11-2001 02:38									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo No it shouldn't. It belongs with the rightful owners.

Enlighten me...what makes Spain the rightful owners?

	27-11-2001 02:40									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Enlighten me...what makes Spain the rightful owners?

Because I say so.

	27-11-2001 02:47									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Because I say so.

Ah! Well thats that cleared up then!

	27-11-2001 03:19									#27
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I agree with Big Crunch.

@ Giancarlo

	27-11-2001 03:41									#28
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quote: Well, given that the spanish were neutral, the Italians had lost their fleet at Taranto and the British were basically unchallenged on the surface, it would have been a difficult proposal to actually get the troops there in one piece.

What? Give a few bucks to spain.....drop a few thousand paratroops in. Place a few 88.mm's on that rock and on the other side in Algiera....By by British navy passing thru. What...its only (10-20 miles) so wide? You can see the other side...

Back to the point. Gian the people are British. I dont think they'de appreciate being governed by Spaniards. I think autonomy is a better option...

	27-11-2001 03:49									#29
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Back to the point. Gian the people are British. I dont think they'de appreciate being governed by Spaniards. I think autonomy is a better option...

Sure... autonomy under the Spanish.

	27-11-2001 03:49									#30
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I don't know why it concerns you so much Giancarlo, after all, you are Argentinian.