01-12-2001 02:49									#1
	NEW UNITS: Attack chopper and transport plane Put an end to popups!

Made these two units with the newly released flicster!

Attack Chopper - I think Civ3 is missing this vital modern unit. If the tank can be say to be modern era swordsman, then the chopper is modern era horseman. The chopper should be classified as a land unit with the ability to treat all terrain as roads. Its attack value should be 24 - same as modern tank, but the defense value is only 12 - slightly lower then the modern tank. Its movment speed is 3, so it doesn't move faster than a modern tank on the road. It so sweet, to fly through 9 tiles of rough terrains. Its too bad, the chopper can't fly across water, but on the other hand, the chopper can't realistically end its turn in water...

Air Transport - Another missing vital unit, the air transport. The air transport is a helicopter upgrade that has the maximum opertional range (eight). In addition, the air transport can carry more units... two, as well as vehicle units. I had hope to increase the range to 12, but 8 is the limit.

Enjoy!

Attachment: chopper+airtrans.zip
This has been downloaded 4916 time(s).

	01-12-2001 09:45									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

i viewed the images of the units and they look badass.. but where do we unzip this to? How do we install it? Can someone plze post some instructions?

	01-12-2001 10:12									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: i viewed the images of the units and they look badass.. but where do we unzip this to? How do we install it? Can someone plze post some instructions?

They are in my mod in another thread, but it has many more changes than just some new units though. Try it out if you want

	01-12-2001 10:21									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

UnforgiveMe2000 i downloaded your mod... no readme

im not sure where all these files go.

	01-12-2001 10:27									#5
	Put an end to popups!

nm im stupid... does it all by itslef when u extarct it into civ3..

	01-12-2001 10:34									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: UnforgiveMe2000 i downloaded your mod... no readme im not sure where all these files go.

I just haven't made one am planning to when the official one is realease 1.0 waiting on animations for the sub hunter and super carrier, trying to make 'em as we speek...............but yeah i have it set up to where all anyone has to do is extract to their civ3 directory it will install itself from there..

	01-12-2001 18:15									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

well, being a coder/games designer I can help a bit,
extract the files beggining with attackchopper to :
C:\Program Files\Infogrames Interactive\Civilization III\Art\units\Attack Chopper


You then need to change the BIC file using the Civ3edit under the start menu and Infogrammes(I assume you know that )
make a new unit called Apache Gunship or such, by loading civ3mod.bic and going to edit->units and choosing f-15 then reame call it Apache Gunship which sounds much cooler. Or call it Attack Chopper for speed.
The names in the file will need to be change from attack chopper to apache gunship too if you change this.
Alter its combat ratings to suit you, unclick immobile and golden age if you wish.

I could make a BIC file and add it here for you if no one else will,
Only problem is I haven't got to helicopters yet in my game, I could always make Knights into helicopters

I've got some cool real heli sounds from a millitary copter that was buzzing the field behind me , we need some helicopter sounds.(Chainguns , sidewinder missiles etc)

	01-12-2001 21:39									#8
	Balance Issue Remove this text

Does the Attack Chopper attack once or twice? If its twice it would be unbalanced because who would want to build the tanks. I also believe it should cost more than the tank, given its movement capabilities.

	01-12-2001 22:26									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, I've tried out the attack helicopter,
I like the animations, though it didn't work properly when i sent it on a bombing mision as an air unit = it left an after image of a chopper, but nothing serious, i probably have to turn on bombard animations or something.

It seems to work best as a land unit I agree,
I've just tried making it an air unit AND not ticking the immobile flag, so it can be moved around like a Civ2 Helicopter,
BUT the AI dosen't seem to have a clue how to use mobile air units but it works well for the player.

(NOTE to FIRAXIS: fix the AI so it can do this attack copter thing, simply make it half airplane/half tank - an airtank!)

I suggest only allowing helicopters bombing , recon and rebasing missions, as they aren't REALLY an air superiority craft.

Air mobile units can go across sea and land at least, perhaps the AI can be persuaded to work with this? needs more testing.

IDEAS: you could have a SeaKing helicopter which is like a ship (or an airplane though it can't attacks ships i think) as well as the land based 'Apache copter' as the seakings have longer range and are specialised like in real life.
Seakings are used for recon/transport and also for anti submarine warfare.

You could set the Apache land copter to bombard, so you can at least bombard ships etc off the coast.. maybe this would allow an 'air' unit that can bombard ships. It should attack ships differently , its fast but would have trouble sinking a sub, so shouldn't have much attack.
Problem is the editor won't let me make it a bombard land unit by clicking the artillery flag, maybe its only artilerry units that can do this , i must be doing something wrong.

In a civ2:TOT mod i had a Torpedo bomber for sinking ships , like the WW2 pacific war with the japs and the US, maybe we could make something for civ3 like this.
I'll upload a BIC file with it in soon, once i've sorted it out fully.

	02-12-2001 02:47									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

i have a problem with your flc files.. when i want to build the unit, my game crashes. I never had this problem with other custom units, and my own units i tried to make did crash, so could you please explain what i am doing wrong??

	02-12-2001 04:03									#11
	Suffering from ads?

already got it working, was a stupid error in my own custom units.

Really nice animations btw... now i have another problem though.. well it's not really a problem, but anyway..

when the attack heli attacks, the machine gun sound sometimes overlaps (especially when it's apache vs apache). Do you know how to make it so that it doesn't (less noise and less painful to the ears). I already tried inserting up to 2 second silence in the audio file, but this doesn't help.. i presume it's somewhere in the .ini

	02-12-2001 05:51									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I think the Apache copter should have a lower defence than the tanks, and only 1 attack anyway seeing as it needs fuel and will only get a couple of attack passes before goign back to base to find a safe flat landing spot. Its seems a shame you can't have airbases, then you could make the copter a proper air unit.

Whatever , it shouldn't be able to defend to well, but ought to be able to retreat, like a mounted unit as I would think VTOL take off would allow it a quick get away if it was caught out on the ground.

Attack helicopters have made tanks less useful in the real world, their speed and flexibility in the air over low altitudes make them deadly, when they're packing a few sidewinders and anti personnel chainguns.

I was thinking of replacing the chinese rider with the Apache Helicopter (this attack one), and letting the chinese use the Indians war elephant as their special (probably could do with a change in ability too) , otherwise I don't see how to add units if not replace the specials or otherwise. Would be a shame to get rid of all the special units though. I guess you can just restrict the game to not allowing the Iroqouis or Persians and use their special slots.

I see someones editing the BIC file to make more units.. might try this.

	02-12-2001 11:06									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ Its seems a shame you can't have airbases, then you could make the copter a proper air unit.

Maybe you can...

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=36532

	02-12-2001 14:06									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I have NO idea how to get the images to load into my .bic file. I do not want a new .bic file because I have modified my own extensively. Is there any way you could create new base civ3 image files to include the units you have added? That would make it a whole lot easier, at least for me.

	02-12-2001 22:20									#15
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by BlueO Attack Chopper [...] The chopper should be classified as a land unit with the ability to treat all terrain as roads. Its attack value should be 24 - same as modern tank, but the defense value is only 12 - slightly lower then the modern tank. Its movment speed is 3, so it doesn't move faster than a modern tank on the road. [...] Its too bad, the chopper can't fly across water, but on the other hand, the chopper can't realistically end its turn in water...

The idea of attack-choopers is good, but above stats & abilities seems out of place.

It shouldnt be treated as an land-unit attackable by any other type of land-based combat-unit, wheter it is modern one or not. It IS an air-unit and the stats & abilities should belong to the same category as the current bombers/fighters/helicopters that are already in the game. Sure, some modern land-units can attack this unit, but its still an air-unit nevertheless.

quote: Air Transport - Another missing vital unit, the air transport. The air transport is a helicopter upgrade that has the maximum opertional range (eight). In addition, the air transport can carry more units... two, as well as vehicle units. I had hope to increase the range to 12, but 8 is the limit.

Either one heavy mech.infantry/tank-unit; or two mounted units, or artillery bombardment-type of units, or three foot-soldiers - the player must choose. And the range should be max 8.

	03-12-2001 02:12									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

ajbera, I was about to post the link myself until I saw that you had already done it. Thanks.

	03-12-2001 02:27									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Actually, I think a attack value of 20 and defense value of 8 would be better. Attack chopper will retreat, if it's losing, and it can only attack once. this unit should be a lightning strike type unit, to attack deep into enemy territories and pull out.

I'm treating it as a land unit because unlike the planes, its not suppose to fly very high. At least, I have never seen a attack chopper flying high as a jetfighter. And unlike the planes, it can land anywhere, so it doesn't require an airbase. Sorta like a tank can stop anywhere, and don't require a landbase.

Welp, I'm sure everyone will input their own attributes, but this is what I'll be putting in.

	03-12-2001 02:40									#18
	Plumbean Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I down loaded your mod but every time I go to build the transport or chopper the game crashes what am I doing wrong
In the city screen I have the name of unit to build but no graphics its a blank unit please tell me what to do the transport picture in the file looks cool I want to use them I want them in the game for every mod

Last edited by Plumbean on 03-12-2001 at 03:46

	03-12-2001 15:42									#19
	Put an end to popups!

I think the defense should go down. Helo's even military grade are very vunrable, and they're effectiveness in urban area's are extreemly questionable. (they're actually very vunrable to foot soldiers with portable SAM's or even RPGs.)

I'd agree that for the most part they should be treated as ground units, since in many cases attack helo's operate under the Army branch rather than airforce, so that they can be better cordinated with other ground units, and provide beter anit-tank services. But as i mentioned earlier their performance in urban situations (somolia is a good example) is abysimal.. there's just too many places for foot soldiers to hide and fire from.

	04-12-2001 02:03									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Defkon - I was there when those Blackhawks got shot down.

Just to add my two cents, the Blackhawk is not armored. Gunships like the Apache and the new Commache are HEAVILY armored. A game defense rating of 8 seems reasonable to me.

Blue O - When can we expect that mod?

	04-12-2001 04:29									#21
	Adding these Units Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If i add these units using the editor, and replace the F-15 w/lets say the attach chopper,,,i will not be able to use then the f-15 anymore...correct? if this is so i want to be able to still use the f-15 so how can i add those 2 new units w/o replacing existing units? Any help would be appreciated if this can be done.......

	05-12-2001 10:27									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by joespaniel Just to add my two cents, the Blackhawk is not armored. Gunships like the Apache and the new Commache are HEAVILY armored. A game defense rating of 8 seems reasonable to me.

Despite the fact that the apache and commanche are armored, they would still realistically not be useful at defending against a land-based assault. It seems that a fleet of attack copters would only slow down (damage) an advancing mech infantry group. Maybe something like 6 for a defence value , thus allowing them to do some damage (but unlikely to be victorius) and then run away.

	05-12-2001 15:35									#23
	Re: Adding these Units Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by GenTomGun If i add these units using the editor, and replace the F-15 w/lets say the attach chopper,,,i will not be able to use then the f-15 anymore...correct? if this is so i want to be able to still use the f-15 so how can i add those 2 new units w/o replacing existing units? Any help would be appreciated if this can be done.......

use the civcopytool, copy the F-15, rename it to Apache or whatever, then do the same as you would do with the other procedure (in essence you are editing a copy of the f-15)

	05-12-2001 16:46									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: It shouldnt be treated as an land-unit attackable by any other type of land-based combat-unit, wheter it is modern one or not. It IS an air-unit and the stats & abilities should belong to the same category as the current bombers/fighters/helicopters that are already in the game. Sure, some modern land-units can attack this unit, but its still an air-unit nevertheless.

I don't think that helicopter units are really air units as such. Sure they fly, but at such low altitudes that just about any other ground unit would be able to fire at it (that's why the US was reluctant to send choppers into Afghanistan, but felt comfortable sending bombers).

Yeah I know I'm basically just agreeing with somebody who has already posted here, but I just want to get my 2 cents in.

	07-12-2001 09:56									#25
	Advice for Attack Helo Full PM-box? Change here!

Been reading these posts on the attack helo unit. Thought the thread may be open to some suggestions from somebody with working knowledge an attack helicopter's mission and capabilities. I fly the AH-1W SuperCobra in a Marine Corps squadron, so that's the limit of my experience, but I'll offer what I can.

First, the aircraft cruises at about 140 knots fully loaded. If you're planning movement versus the tank, give it at least a 3x rate.

Second, armament obviously includes anti-tank and anti-personnel. If you're working on offensive/defensive values, it will change according to the threat. Versus tanks, a single Cobra with a standard loadout of 4 Hellfire and 4 TOW missiles can dispense with 5-6 modern tanks, given random malfunctions in weapon systems. Defensively, tanks pose next to zero threat to helicopters of any kind. They simply cannot touch us. The weapon systems we respect are Air Defense Artillery and Low-Altitude SAMs. This includes those pesky little buggers with shoulder-fired SAMs, which leads me into personnel: Versus personnel, the attack helo carries 20mm or better caliber rounds and 2.75 inch HE rockets. Depending on troop dispersion, a single Cobra could end the careers of hundreds of soldiers.

Third, yes I agree with the thread that attack helicopters fly at much lower altitudes than fixed-wing aircraft. However, that offers the advantage of surprise when approaching behind terrain (if there is a way to limit enemy sight on the Civ3 maps when behind the hill or mountain tile). It also provides the benefit of protection against tracked SAMs - simply put, they cannot pick out our heat or radar signature against the clutter of terrain that we mask in front of / behind.

Fourth, the attack helicopter is indeed capable of attacking targets on the ocean. I've done it myself when flying 100 miles out to sea and back again. We can't land out there in the water, of course, but that's what ships are for. We did a 5 month deployment on an LHA-class Navy ship and flew all our missions from her into Kuwait, coming back each afternoon to refuel and rearm.

Lastly, an air-to-air capability exists. Versus jets, the only weapon a Cobra has is the formidable Sidewinder missile. We can hit a jet with one; it's just insanely difficult when the fixed-wing aircraft is moving fast or away from us. Figure that capability in at a very reduced offensive factor when modifying the Civ3 unit. Air-to-air versus other helicopters, there is no match for the attack helo.

Hope this post helps those of you who enjoy adding authenticity to your modifications. Feel free to respond at my email address if you need any more information specifically about this unit.

	08-12-2001 17:14									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'm sorry if I sound like a doubtful ****hole, but I am one . It seems the attack helo is the be-all end-all of modern warfare. You are obviously someone in a postition to know your stuff, but I wonder if the the attack helo is as powerful as you make out. Sure, it's fast compared to a ground unit, and can definately pack a punch, but how strong is an attack helo if it gets caught off guard?

You mentioned the helo being modified to it's situation. What if the situation was supposed to be 80 militant rebels with nothing but small arms and a few sandbags, then upon arrival at the target destination you find several platoons of heavy armours with mech inf back-up? The helo has the wrong load-out for the mission, and you're pretty screwed. Sure you can retreat, but nowhere as fast as a jet, and while the helo may be fast, it aint gonna outrun one of those 'pesky guys' with the shoulder mounted SAMs...

Tanks though, the are slightly more adaptable to the situation, as are many other ground based units. Their armour is thicker, their means of movement (rotor blades vs tank tracks) are more secure and they make less noise.

My point is, while helicopters can pack a punch, they also can be caught with their pants down far more easily, which could reflected by lower attack or defense values than the Modern Armour in CivIII

	09-12-2001 03:22									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

NZrevenge, I am open to your argument. You bring some very salient points to the table, and they are certainly worthy of more discussion. My area of knowledge lies in the Close- and Deep-Air-Support mission rather than English composition, so the things I was attempting to say in my last post could have been misinterpreted.

To begin, I will be the first to admit that the attack helo, and specifically the AH-1W (although the Apache is not altogether different) is not a final solution to the ideal war machine. It's definitely not. It can theoretically withstand a pounding by up .50 caliber rounds straight through the transmission and rotor blades, but anything more powerful than that will take it down, assuming a direct hit. And a well-aimed Kalishnikov product can take out a pilot through the plexiglass canopies.

Offensively, not defensively, is where the attack helo's strengths are. The only defense we have is our own tactics in staying out of harm's way and attacking from a distance when the threat is high (i.e., integrated ADA). The Hellfire missiles can be sent 8 km downrange if you don't feel like rubbing elbows with your target. When the threat is low - small arms and scattered ADA not tied into a radar net - we feel better about getting up close and personal with the enemy, using rockets and guns.

To your point about getting caught without the proper loadout for the unexpected enemy: We can't necessarily carry everything that will mount on the aircraft. At a certain gross weight that varies with the altitude (worse for high altitudes), we're limited with wingstores. That's one reason why it's a challenge for those guys currently flying helos in Afghanistan. They're power-limited at those high density altitudes. However, you always take a mix of weapons for all contingencies. Remember, you're never going out single-aircraft to a fight, and the Civ 3 game recognizes this. Every unit icon actually represents more than one individual vehicle / troop. We usually fight in divisions of four, and if we're limited by weight, then two aircraft take the precision-guided-missiles for targeting armor, and the other two go heavy on the anti-personnel weapons. So you always have a mix to counter the random pop-up threat.

And no, we cannot outrun a SAM. No way. But don't forget that flares are pretty effective counter-measures for the very prevalent and inexpensive SA-7b and SA-14 shoulder-fired SAMs that every middle-east nation in the world possesses in large quantities.

To close, I accept your arguments, but pose these points as relevant to creation of a balanced Civ 3 attack helo unit:
1. Offensively, rank the attack helo unit equal to modern armor.

2. Defensively, you'll have to play around with other unit values to make things accurate. Versus the SAMs, attack helo defense ratings should be comparatively low. Versus armor, it should be high. I haven't figured out how to make this work yet. Possibly making the helo an air unit would solve that problem.

3. The attack helo unit should be given the capability of conducting 2-tile bombardment, to simulate the 8 km laser-guided missile attacks it can make.

I welcome further conversation on these points. There's always a better way to do things, and I by no means have all the answers.

	11-12-2001 03:01									#28
	can someone help us dummies Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Im maybe not the best at this editting stuff so if someone could make a edit with these units that would be great let me know if someone can via icq 45671439

	11-12-2001 03:03									#29
	for us dummies Increase Your PM Length

if someone could put these into a mod or easy install method the would be great cause i cant seem to get these to work thx!!!!!

	11-12-2001 09:12									#30
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by yucca02 1. Offensively, rank the attack helo unit equal to modern armor. 2. Defensively, you'll have to play around with other unit values to make things accurate. Versus the SAMs, attack helo defense ratings should be comparatively low. Versus armor, it should be high. I haven't figured out how to make this work yet. Possibly making the helo an air unit would solve that problem. 3. The attack helo unit should be given the capability of conducting 2-tile bombardment, to simulate the 8 km laser-guided missile attacks it can make.

I think 24 attack(like modern armor), 8 defense, mounted(so it can retreat if possible), and the turn to attack option would most closely resemble this. Of course, I don't think civ III alows for different defense vs different kinds of units, but this would work ok I think. I think bombardment would be realistic, but a bit too powerful for good balance.