07-12-2001 19:13									#151
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@ Eli
You really should read up on the history of the IDF, whoever you are who Eli responded to.

About the more current discussion: I agree with Pakitis and Natan. The fact is, that until the Aqza Intifada some 75% or the Israelis supported the ideas of Oslo, although about a third of those didn't believe it would be achieved. If Arafat had accepted Barak's offer at Camp David, there would be a PALESTINIAN STATE WITH JERUSALEM AS IT'S CAPITAL, RIGHT NOW. Instead they started the Intifada and now they're NOT gonna get a state for 10 years at least. Real smart, huh?
Come On, I want an end to this a million times more than all the Euro d00dz put together, since I'm HERE, and I'm the one who's actually affected by it all, but I also want a Jewish state to exist, despite all its many flaws. I also do want a Palestinian state to exist, preferably as Israel's ally number one. Although this is not very likely now.

	07-12-2001 19:17									#152
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quote: Brittain is not part of the EU.

Since when? Britain is a very important member of the EU, they just didn't join the Euro.

quote: EU don't have any common army yet !

In one week we will have. Honestly. The ERRF will be declared operational next week.

	07-12-2001 19:18									#153
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Most of the Jews who currently live in Israel either weren't born there, or were born to parents who weren't born there. The vast majority, I'd imagine. So really, it's a state being set up to pander to a specific religion because they got mistreated. In return, they get to mistreat people from another religion

1. Most of the Jews can, if they try track their roots to judean jews. It is a fact, that most jews with last name Cohen (or Katz or Kogan) share a unique gene, which can be traced to one father of the Cohanim (Jewish Priests).

2. Most of the palestinians were born to parents (or grandparents) who weren't born there, but rather immigrated to Israel during 1890-1948 because of the economic boom brought by Jewish emigration. Jews began developing swamp land into the fertile lands we know today in the coast strip.

3. Jews haven't mistreated any arabs when they came to settle here. Infact they hired arabs and learnt from them.

4. Around the late 20's, arab religious leaders began to fear for their status in the eyes of the brittish, since Jewish immigrants flowing to Israel were more educated and capabale and growing in number.

5. In 1929 the first Intifada ever started, after arab religious leaders began a propoganda claiming Jews want to drive arabs out and desicrate their holy sites to set up their own. An idiotic notion, since most Zionist thinkers up to those days thought of ways to live side by side with arabs, and were infact completely non-religious and mostly even atheists.

quote: if either Israel disappeared or at the VERY least started treating them fairly and decently

Israel is treating Israeli-Arabs, most of whom define themselves palestinian in nationality, like regular citizens. The only thing different in law is that they are not called to serve in IDF though they can offer themselves, because of the obvious problems of possibly fighting relatives.

Israel is treating beduin, druz and other minorities like it's citizens and no one complains.

The only problem is with fundaments like water and electricity. Many of the arabs and druz and beduins still choose to live in nomadic tribes and refuse to settle in big cities for long periods of time, a thing which makes providing the connections very hard.

I wouldn't say the reltaions between israeli arabs and jews are perfect, but that's because of the conflict and that's only recently.

In the 50s and 60s, the arabs living in Israel thought of themselves as Israelis and took pride of the Israeli flag.

Those living in the territories were however, since 1948 under the control of Jordan, and living very poorly. After 1967 Israel invested money in fundaments until at some point the arabs there defined themselves as palestinians and Israel understood that those areas won't be happy to incorporate into Israel and then slowed down on developing them.

quote: I'm not anti-semitic. I'm anti-Israel. I also don't have a whole lot of patience for people who believe that Jews are blameless and for some reason deserve a homeland. And I didn't see you deny that, according to the Old Testament, Jews inflicted horrible atrocities on others.

I'm sure that If I find what your ancestors did 5000 years ago, you won't be proud.

Let's not go that far. Until the late 19th century your country supported slavery.

Slavery existed here during Biblical times, but the Bible put many social laws in defense of slaves from exploitation - those are often misquoted by bible thrashers to say that "the Bible supprots slavery".

quote: I'm sure more Jews died in the Holocaust than in any other war in history. So did more Russians. For that matter, Stalin killed more Ukrainians than ever died in the history of war. Mao killed more Chinese. So what? Should the friends or descendants of those killed get their own homeland carved out of the worst imaginable spot? Because if religion and oppression are good reasons, then political differences and oppression must be equally good, eh?

Stalin killed ukranians because they resisted his rule.
Mao killed Chinese who resisted him.
Hitler killed Jews who were Jews.

Get the difference?

	07-12-2001 19:27									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L Since when? Britain is a very important member of the EU, they just didn't join the Euro.

They don't want to be in the EU
They don't like to be considered europe.

Their government now is inventing every excuse to explain how Britain isn't loosing that much because of joining EU.

Brits like to be brits.

quote: In one week we will have. Honestly. The ERRF will be declared operational next week.

Really?
According to Blair this won't be an Army, but rather an organization under which's roof different armies could have joint operations.

Still, while this group will be under EU command, each country can decide whether to send troops for the current mission.

	07-12-2001 19:43									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov They don't want to be in the EU They don't like to be considered europe. Their government now is inventing every excuse to explain how Britain isn't loosing that much because of joining EU. Brits like to be brits. [

Agree with you. It is difficult for all european country to accept the law of the community. But Britain shows the less will to become europeans.

EU will not maybe succeed, but at least we try.

	07-12-2001 19:44									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov They don't want to be in the EU They don't like to be considered europe.

Where do you get this from? If there were a vote in the UK tomorrow on whether or not the UK should be in the EU, the vote would be overwhelmingly in favour of EU membership.

	07-12-2001 19:51									#157
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I'm happy to read that, but you're quite late.
Lot of country will enter in euro zone, in few days, you know ?

	07-12-2001 19:55									#158
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior I'm happy to read that, but you're quite late. Lot of country will enter in euro zone, in few days, you know ?

You are confusing the EU with the Euro. The countries in the EU are not the same as the countries adopting the Euro. The EU = European Union is a political union. The Euro is to be a common currancy adopted by many European states. Also Europe is a different thing from European Union.

If there were elections tomorrow the British would vote for the EU, but against the Euro.

	07-12-2001 19:59									#159
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Outside of that, I'd prefer NO Jewish state. If they HAD to have one, I'd suggest an island out in the Pacific somewhere, preferably uninhabited. Or maybe the uninhabited part of Papua New Guinea.

If you as you stated are against Willson's principle of the right for self declaration (which is now a principle of the UN Human Rights!), why is it that you can't accept the situation as it is now and choose to ignore palestinian right of self definition?

I'm not suggesting to ignore them. I'm for respecting them all the way. And while I see how people could be lead into thinking terrorists are "freedom fighters" I don't believe that it is right to target innocent civilians.

I can accept strikes on Israeli bases, or even settlements as freedom fighting, though being a subjective Israeli I am not supporting the fight.

Was Germany mistreated in Versailles? Damn right. Should we have accepted WWII as just? No.

First we stop the violence by armed means, and only then can we deal with the problem.

If we deal with the problem before violence will quell, the violent factors will see it as a victory and from now on will think of violence as a just mean of forcing solutions.

The worst thing you can do is offer understanding to those who try to achieve things by violence and terror. This is not to be confused with armed attempts to quell violence and terror - such as Allied action against the Nazis, American against the Taliban or Israeli against Hamas, Jihad and now the PLO.

quote: So you're telling me that the terrorist attacks on Israel AREN'T because Israel exists?

They are exactly because Israel exist, rather than because of occuption as the terracts started much before the occupation. It's just that right now they are mostly originating from those areas.

But that doesn't mean that we have to fulfil every terrorist's wet dream, and certainly doesn't make the notion that Israel shouldn't exist a right one.

Didn't Nazis murder Jews because they exist?
Does it mean the Jews had to stop existing to please them?

quote: Greeks always lived in Greater Hellas or Hellas, they never abandoned flag or submited spirit while on their grounds.

Neither did jews.
There are communities of jews that stayed here from the founding of Israel. Some of the popular judean cult and some of other cults like Karaim.

However, we didnt' exactly "leave and forget".

We were last forced out by Rome. We gave them a very good fight (read about Bar-Kochva and about the Roman 5 year long siege on Massada) but come on - Roman legions against the small autonomy of Judea?? Did we ever stand a chance?

And we were deported. That was a very popular measure when conquering during Biblical times. To remind you - the laws banning deportation of local people are very new.

Plus, Paiktis, we already had a thriving commerical kindom, and managed to split it, then to be deported once and lose a temple, comeback, build another temple, set up another kingdom, be deported again and comeback - all long before Hellenism united greece.

quote: Israel seems to be an artificial state. Were there Jews under captivity in that region?

There were jewish communities all throgh the byzantine then the arab rule of this area.

These were connected to religious jewish communities world wide, until the late medeval era.

quote: It seems Israel is just a projection of western interests in the region. It also serves american interests and that's why it is so heavily protected and praised in US and UK? media.

A. You're right. We owe our existance to the fact that the west does want to have a safe stronghold in that strategic area.
B. UK media? depends who. BBC are doing what they can to be MOBIUS. SKY news are mostly impartial, though often lacking deep analysis (still better than CNN analysis). Also, at times SKY tend to be (:eek Pro-Israel!!

quote: Who's to say that these people deserve to have a state formed and those do not? : The interests big powers have.

That's what's been driving the world for the last centuries if you haven't noticed.

quote: What is important is that Palestinians should be allowed to live free. I think they have proven (much more than the Israelis) their craving for freedom.

Oh, so using terrorism is proof of craving for "freedom"?
So those who do threaten innocent civilians are more just?

quote: How can one be on the side of an armed to the theeth people and not on the side of the deprived and the enslaved?

They aren't deprived.
The only thing they're deprived of is actual sovereignity and under the blockade now - free trade.

Sovereignity could ahve been solved if Arafat wasn't a jerck in Camp David.

They are enslaved by Arafat who is the leader defacto.

quote: That is why Israeli casualties take second place to Palestinian deaths. Israel has arms and the support of the world's remaining super power. What do the palestinians have?

Just because someone is armed and better suited doesn't make him less right.

Consider - police vs. criminals. america vs. taliban & el-qaida.

quote: With what weapons are they supposed to fight for their freedom?

Ahm.. why not sit down and talk?
Israel has been rather talkative. Especially around camp david, following which Arafat started this fight because he wanted to achieve more.

quote: Was there ever formed a palestinian state? No, because it is not in the interest of the big powers of today's world.

No, because until the 70s there wasn't a nationality of palestinians. IIRC PLO was named after Palestine only several years AFTER it was formed.

quote: How can I have sympathy for people dropping bombs with sophisticated weaponry and the others fighting back with rocks?

Was it a rock that took that lives of 26 Israelis?

quote: And Sharon having a clean hand to do whatever he pleases upon innocents. Who the hell does he think he is? If he ever visites an EU country he is to be arrested for crimes against humanity. And it is this man who leads Israel. And he is allowed to do so when people like Milosevic were taken care of. Why?

Please read an impartial (non PC or BBC or CNN) review of Arafat's deeds.

I also wonder why do you persecute Sharon, a man possibly reponsible for the massacares, when the actual warlord that performed this is sitting freely and safely in Lebanon, and IIRC is now a Minister!!!

	07-12-2001 20:00									#160
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Europe is not EU is not Euro-zone

Three seperate notions with three seperate meanings.

And while Britain doesn't want to be part of the Euro-zone, they do want to be part of the EU.

quote: According to Blair this won't be an Army, but rather an organization under which's roof different armies could have joint operations.

Blair can say all he wants, everyone else calls it an army. If it looks like an army, if it acts like an army, and if it fights like an army, it is an army.

	07-12-2001 20:03									#161
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quote: I also wonder why do you persecute Sharon, a man possibly reponsible for the massacares, when the actual warlord that performed this is sitting freely and safely in Lebanon, and IIRC is now a Minister!!!

Others, including Arafat himself, are wanted in Belgium too. Sharon isn't the only one.

	07-12-2001 20:05									#162
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Eli, why don't your pilots fly up to the aegean one time? Come on if you can even reach Crete I'll buy you a kebab or something You Elder of Zion

I was in Crete this summer for a weekend.

Only I mistakenly posted here that I was going to Cyprus ....

	07-12-2001 20:11									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh You are confusing the EU with the Euro. The countries in the EU are not the same as the countries adopting the Euro. The EU = European Union is a political union. The Euro is to be a common currancy adopted by many European states. Also Europe is a different thing from European Union. If there were elections tomorrow the British would vote for the EU, but against the Euro.

Oh, I perfectly know that.
I would mean that while you're still wondering if you will enter in EU, lot of country have entered in an upper stage : the euro !

	07-12-2001 20:32									#164
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quote: Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior Oh, I perfectly know that. I would mean that while you're still wondering if you will enter in EU, lot of country have entered in an upper stage : the euro !

The UK has been in the EU for years.

The Euro has nothing to do with the EU. There will be countries who are not in the EU who use the Euro as their currency.

	07-12-2001 21:08									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh The UK has been in the EU for years.

Yes, they were at the beginning of the project with Germany and France and Italia.

First it was the "European comminity of the coil" (I'm not sure of the english translation ...).

But since they have always the less motivated (maybe for good reason).

quote: The Euro has nothing to do with the EU.

Technicaly, yes. But not in spirit ...

It's a secondary way for EU.

	07-12-2001 21:31									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Frodo I'm getting the impression now that fear is what drives this whole thing. [...]tools at hand the situation will never be fixed.

I haven't had the energy to read all that.

To make a long story short:

1880 : Jews see rising anti-semitism and decide to slowly move to Israel
1900 : Arabs see economic developement of the area (due to jewish projects) and move here
1920 : Arab leaders fear losing their ruler status in face of Jewish emigration. They fear Brittish prefer the Jews and fear Jews will spread enlightement though Arab society, leading to the overthrow of the leaders.
1930 : Arab intifadas against Jews and sometimes Brits.
1930 - 1945 : Jews see Brits cave in to Arabs and form militias to defend themselves and later to fight Brittish occupation. At the same time, several radical jewish groups perform acts on the border of terror and partisanism, targetting military leaders, headquarters and such.
1945 - 1948 : Jews flee europe in hope to start new life in Israel. Brits give up on area. Jews organize to declare independance. Arab leaders organize to squash Jewish independance.
1948 - 50s - Arab armies attack newly delcared Israel. Local arabs are encouraged to flee by both sides - arab armies to prevent hurting them, jews - to clear lands and to avoid "fifth columns".
50s - 67 - Many small conflicts and terror by Arabs, resisted by Israel by acts of revenge which eventually stop massacares of Israeli villages. Shimon Peres initiates contacts with France about a nuclear reactor which is later built.
67 - Feeling threatened by large armies of Jordan and Egypt, Israel starts a war. Jordan does all it can to "loose" west-bank to Israel. Israel conquers west bank and liberates Israeli holy sites, access to which was not allowed and which were infact desecrated. Golan Heights, used to bomb the Israeli Galilie are conquered as well.
PLO is formed shortly, and propaganda about palestinian identity first appears.

72 - Israel constantly on alert, doesn't want to start another preemptive war. When D-day comes and actual knowledge about armies about to attack within hours come, it's too late. America says it will refuse support if Israel again attacks first.
70s - After an intifada and an attempted revolution attempt by Arafat, Arafat is kicked out of Jordan (to Lebanon) by King Hussein. There are intelligence historions who claim Mossad informed Hussein about Arafat's attempt to assassinate him. Mossad supposedly also informed Sadat about a previous assassination attempt by extreme right, for which he was greatful.
79 - Anwar Sadat, decides his people come first and makes peace with Israel to allow for the peaceful developement of Egypt.
In the meantime Arafat ignites hostilities between Mulslims and Christian in Lebanon. Formes a mini-state. Counless massacares are peformed. Lebanon is used as a base for anti-Israeli terracts
82 - Israeli government, seeking to stop terracts and get rid of Arafat (cause of terracts through out the 70s) uses the murder of it's diplomat by a palestinain to invade lebanon. The christian welcome them with flowers. Muslims lead by Arafat fight against them. Syria invades Lebanon in response. Israel decides to give control to Lebanese christian armies it trained for some time. They perform Sabra and Shatilla. Israel fails to respond in time.
Arafat deported to Tunis.
Israel, seeking to create a buffer zone from syria and muslim resstance groups, formes the buffer zones and filles them with christian army - South Lebanese Army.
1988(?) - First intifada starts. The official pre-text - Israeli murder of civilians, later uncovered to be a simple car accident. Israel responds in a tough manner.
90 - An attempt by Peres to sign agreement with Jordan about Jordan taking care of many palestinian refugees is uncovered by Israeli rihgt wing and Jordan decides it wants nothing more to do with the palestinians.
1990-91 - Iraq goes Amoc on neighbours. Israel forced to sit quietly to allow America to hold it's fragile coalition. Arafat and King Hussein support Iraq.
91 - After the events where the world feels united, Israel talks to Palestinian representatives.
92 - It is discovered they are controlled by Arafat
93 - Arafat pledges - no more terror. Rabin believes him and following that they sign Oslo.
94 - 96 - Terror waves come and go, with hardly any Israeli reaction. Israel makes first withdrawal.
96 - Nethanyahu threatens Araft he will topple him. Arafat starts dealing with Terror.
98 - Israel makes another withdrawal.
99 - Nethanyahu, having a corrupt govt. and surfice economical problems, plus a weak coalition, looses to Barak.
2000- Barak, after warning from both Israeli intel. chiefs and Palestinian officials withdraws unilaterally from Lebanon
2000 - Barak enters camp david talks to discuss third withdrawal and binds it with end of conflict. Arafat wants third withdrawal but no end of conflict and stalls. Talks fail.
2000 - Predictions of Israeli intel. and Palestinian peace camp comes true, when Arafat decides to copy Lebanon in the West Bank. Using a visit by Sharon as a pre-text - violent riots break out in Israel. Israeli arabs are also taking part - organized by Israeli Arab ministers - formerly in Arafat's office and still having close ties to Arafat.
2000 - Arafat releases the terrorists he jailed starting from 96. For the first time (except several previous incidents) Arafat's police forces themselves participate in terror: drive by shooting, mortar shooting, shooting at neighbourhoods.

	07-12-2001 21:32									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L Others, including Arafat himself, are wanted in Belgium too. Sharon isn't the only one.

Then why are the rest of the poster ignoring this fact?
To my knowledge Arafat is wanted only recently after Israelis pressed charges.

	07-12-2001 21:33									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L Blair can say all he wants, everyone else calls it an army. If it looks like an army, if it acts like an army, and if it fights like an army, it is an army.

Meanwhile it smells like another fake "peacekeeping force".

	07-12-2001 22:27									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh Apart from the very first portion of this sentence, this is complete nonsense! 'Israeli' is not the same thing as 'Jewish' and 'Palestinian' is not the same thing as 'Islamic'. If someone does not like the US, does that make them anti-anglosaxon? Of course not. Have you ever even been to Israel? Have you been to Palestine?

Your putting your head up your ass again, Rogan.
I've told you on several times I have been there, and have been fired on by your "Islamic" friends. Whats non-sense is the bull spin you people try to put on the ME.

quote: Most 'Brits' condemn the violence from both sides. Any terrorist, anywhere in the world should be hunted down and punished. Terrorism should not be allowed to win ever!

You couldn't tell from the posts we see here from the Empire.

quote: But that also includes Israeli terrorists - they should not be given special treatment, and I think it is disgusting how some people on these boards support or make excuses for their terrorist atrocities.

Terrorism bites, tis true.

	08-12-2001 00:08									#170
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quote: To my knowledge Arafat is wanted only recently after Israelis pressed charges.

Not Israelis, but European Jews. But yes, only recently. Only if some organisation presses charges against someone, then it's possible to start a trial. Nobody pressed charges against Arafat until recently, but now that they have I don't think he'll be visiting Belgium any time soon.

quote: Meanwhile it smells like another fake "peacekeeping force".

Quite a peacekeeping force, driving in Leopard II tanks and flying Eurofighter Typhoons.

	08-12-2001 01:34									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Rogan Josh I think this is part of the problem. How do you define terrorist? Is it the killing of civilians in order to cause terror when war has not been declared? Then the King David Hotel falls under this category - lots of civilians were killed, and the bombing was obviously intented to cause terror.

1) The bombing was obviously meant to destroy the military HQ of the opposing British forces which were about to arrest Irgun members, IIRC based on information provided by the Yishuv.
2) By this logic, the US bombing of Afghanistan is terrorism, since it is meant to make the Taliban afraid. In fact, almost all bombing has the goal of making the neemy afraid and almost all bombing kills civillians.

quote: But what if the perpetrator is an army of a country? Does that make it any different? Are the atrocities committed by the Israeli army under the command of Sharon terrorism too? If not, why not? The IRA are the Irish Republican Army but they are most definitely terrorists. Why should it matter which other countries recognise the existence of the state?

I would say that terrorism is not something done by regular, uniformed armies. Armies can be many bad things, but I think terrorism implies irregular warfare.

quote: A short while ago, I watched a BBC news report which was showing a block of flats in Palestine which was being deliberately shelled by an Israeli tank (I saw the tanks doing the shelling on TV!). There were many women and children in the flats and we were shown pictures of traumatised children (although none were injured). Is this not terrorism but your own definition?

Depends on several factors. I don't have access to the report nor did I see it, and we don't know why they were being shelled or if the tank crew could tell they were occupied. Now the Jewish terrorists who set out to kill Palestinian civillians in "revenge attacks," are definitely terrorists ( I don't know why so many media outlets mislabel them "vigalantes") but I don't think you've really show me enough here to go on.

quote: Or what about the pictures from a couple of days ago of children running from the bombs of Israeli F-16s?

If the media were not cowed into submission, we could just as easily be seeing pictures of Afghan children running from American bombs. In fact, a few news organizations do show such pictures, but I doubt you'd describe USAF as a terrorist organization. Both nations try their best, but with those sorts of weapons, accidents will happen. Sort of like the way that despite the best efforts of manufcaturers, legislators, and drivers, car accidents still happen. Of course, the bombs are more terrifying and horrific, but the point is, accidents happen.

quote: Unfortunately it seems that some people only want to use the word 'terrorist' if it is their enemy.

Yes, and that is why many news organizations refuse to use the word.

	08-12-2001 05:32									#172
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Chris,

I know you speak your mind and I appreciated your input. I hadn't yet asked the question about US support for Israel.