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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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quote:
Well where else would you have put a Jewish state
(Besides what your probably thinking, back into concentrations camps ) |
I hope you're not serious, if you are, **** you.
Outside of that, I'd prefer NO Jewish state. If they HAD to have one, I'd suggest an island out in the Pacific somewhere, preferably uninhabited. Or maybe the uninhabited part of Papua New Guinea.
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The fact that you even suggest the latter is very troubling. |
So you're telling me that the terrorist attacks on Israel AREN'T because Israel exists?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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My solution proves I'm a Nazi? You mean because I don't think we should give every oppressed people, or every religious group, there own nation, I'm a Nazi?? Whatever.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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quote:
No, your telling me that getting rid of Israel is the only solution? Rationally and obvouis thinking here......how about getting rid of the terrorists? |
I'm saying they wouldn't have started in the first place if some stupid ass hadn't thought up the not-so-bright idea about creating a Jewish State, and then gone and done it.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:16
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quote:
No.....your giving legitamacy to terrorists. Your writing the blueprint for future terrorist's fighting elsewhere. Your telling them You can win! look what we did to Israel
Must I remind you that Barak offered 90% of the west bank for a Palestinian state last summer? Should I also remind you that arafat rejected it, laughed in his face and told him that Jerusalem would be the capital of a Palestinian state. |
Legitimacy to terrorists? No.
First off, I CAN see how a Palestinian terrorist could also be seen as a freedom fighter, but I can also see how he could be seen as a terrorist. I don't really care about that distinction.
My only point is that the Jews don't, and never have, deserved their own state. It makes no sense, and just created a bad situation.
BUT, if you HAVE to make a Jewish State, at least make it out in the middle of nowhere, like a deserted Pacific island, where they don't bother anyone and no one bothers them.
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Bereta_Eder
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Greeks did kick the invader out of Hellas but the similarities with Israel are not a lot.
Greeks always lived in Greater Hellas or Hellas, they never abandoned flag or submited spirit while on their grounds.
Israel seems to be an artificial state. Were there Jews under captivity in that region?
Who can deny the monstrocity of the Holocaust?
But the idea that Israel should be formed just so Jews have a home of their own and are not the scapegoats of Europeans doesn't click.
It seems Israel is just a projection of western interests in the region. It also serves american interests and that's why it is so heavily protected and praised in US and UK? media.
Who's to say that these people deserve to have a state formed and those do not? : The interests big powers have.
However, these things are not important.
What is important is that Palestinians should be allowed to live free. I think they have proven (much more than the Israelis) their craving for freedom.
How can one be on the side of an armed to the theeth people and not on the side of the deprived and the enslaved?
That is why Israeli casualties take second place to Palestinian deaths. Israel has arms and the support of the world's remaining super power. What do the palestinians have?
With what weapons are they supposed to fight for their freedom?
Was there ever formed a palestinian state? No, because it is not in the interest of the big powers of today's world.
But these people keep on fighting against a whole world. And will keep on fighting untill the bitter end if need be, they have the flame of freedom.
Of course they are used as pawns too. And no one can guarantee that a free Palestine wouldn't fall back on dark regimes once it is truely independent. But it deserves a state.
How can I have sympathy for people dropping bombs with sophisticated weaponry and the others fighting back with rocks?
And Sharon having a clean hand to do whatever he pleases upon innocents. Who the hell does he think he is? If he ever visites an EU country he is to be arrested for crimes against humanity. And it is this man who leads Israel. And he is allowed to do so when people like Milosevic were taken care of. Why?
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Frodo
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of Asteroid B-612
May 1999
time: 00:16
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I don't think it helps to consider what has come before. Everyone's been a jerk at some point or other; the wheel of retribution is eternal and pointless.
Is it impossible for there to be one state with two state-sponsored religions? Is it possible for the pals and the israelis to share the space that they both happen to inhabit? I think if you asked the average palestinian or israeli if they would prefer such a solution to continued conflict, they would say yes.
It does not look to me like anyone is any more entitled to the land than anyone else. Why can't there be an equal society that does not take into account race or religion in determining who gets what? Why can't you have one government with a representative body of appropriate numbers of israelis and palestinians?
At this stage in civilization, it is foolish to continue to support the notion that people are fundamentally different. We all desire the same things from life, and we all know that conflict is futile and is never a lasting solution for anything. I am tired of seeing these endless debates centering around minor points. Is the solution to this mess really so unattainable?
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Jon Miller
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It has to do with culture
your asking for one culture to get absorbed by another
your asking for a smaller group to ask for a larger group to come in (and that larger group wants then elimination of the smaller group)
and so on
It would be like (imagine the Chinesse having been in a 50 year fight with Britain and lots of bad blood on both sides) Frace making every chinese person a member of Britain, the result is that Britain would no longer exist and china would just get larger (and the people of Britain would be persecuted and so on)
see while the palestians have been wronged by the Israelis, they have grown a lot faster than the Israelis and would dominate the government if they became citizens, then considering the efforts they go to kill Israelis now I doubt that the Israelis would last long
Jon Miller
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Oldenbarnevelt
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in the Dutch swamps
Sep 2001
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Frodo
Is it impossible for there to be one state with two state-sponsored religions? Is it possible for the pals and the israelis to share the space that they both happen to inhabit? I think if you asked the average palestinian or israeli if they would prefer such a solution to continued conflict, they would say yes. |
My gut estimate is that not even 5% of the Israeli Jews would say yes to that.
It would mean the dismantling of the Jewish state, the dismantling of the only working democracy in the Middle East, an ever-increasing demographic outnumbering of Jews by Arabs, and a massive economic regression for the Israelis that you, in your country, would never accept. It's like joining the US and India and sharing the wealth.
Besides, I know of no example where a majority of Arabs live together with other ethnic groups and do not oppress and discriminate against them. Kurds, Berbers, Nubians, ...
1948 should not and cannot be reversed. 1967
should, provided the Arab world accepts the existence of Israel. Arafat has never really done that (let alone the more radical elements), and that's one of the roots of the problem. (The "Land of Israel" ideology is another.)
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt
My gut estimate is that not even 5% of the Israeli Jews would say yes to that.
It would mean the dismantling of the Jewish state, the dismantling of the only working democracy in the Middle East, an ever-increasing demographic outnumbering of Jews by Arabs, and a massive economic regression for the Israelis that you, in your country, would never accept. It's like joining the US and India and sharing the wealth.
Besides, I know of no example where a majority of Arabs live together with other ethnic groups and do not oppress and discriminate against them. Kurds, Berbers, Nubians, ...
1948 should not and cannot be reversed. 1967
should, provided the Arab world accepts the existence of Israel. Arafat has never really done that (let alone the more radical elements), and that's one of the roots of the problem. (The "Land of Israel" ideology is another.) |
Good post Oldenbarnevelt!
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Rogan Josh
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quote:
Originally posted by faded glory
No.....your giving legitamacy to terrorists. Your writing the blueprint for future terrorist's fighting elsewhere. Your telling them You can win! look what we did to Israel |
That has already been done. We have already demonstrated that resorting to terrorism can achieve your goals. That is how Israel was created in the first place.
Imagine if the Germans had won the war. Imagine if they had reviled the US treatment of American Indians and declared that the entire east coast of the US should be made into an American Indian State. Imagine if the people who lived in there now had been told that they had a choice: they could be second class citizens or they can get out. Would that have been fair?
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Goingonit
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Toronto, Canada - AECCP member
Apr 2001
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Legitimacy to terrorists? No.
First off, I CAN see how a Palestinian terrorist could also be seen as a freedom fighter, but I can also see how he could be seen as a terrorist. I don't really care about that distinction.
My only point is that the Jews don't, and never have, deserved their own state. It makes no sense, and just created a bad situation.
BUT, if you HAVE to make a Jewish State, at least make it out in the middle of nowhere, like a deserted Pacific island, where they don't bother anyone and no one bothers them. |
The need for a Jewish state was demonstrated conclusively when it was proved that nobody wanted them. The idea was that if the Jews had their own state, they would not be vulnerable to another Holocaust. The problem with this is that nobody wants them, and all land is owned by someone.
There were also 500 000 Jews in Israel before 1948.
I could also say that there is no need for a Palestinian state, as there was no Palestinian people before Israel was created.
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:16
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I saw you were kidding my friend, but I answer anyway for the ignorence crowd who no not the true history of this region, and constanly sound off on how the Jews are wrong.
This is for them, not you.quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
Greeks did kick the invader out of Hellas but the similarities with Israel are not a lot. |
Sure they are.
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Greeks always lived in Greater Hellas or Hellas, they never abandoned flag or submited spirit while on their grounds. |
Nor have the Jews, they were always there, even under Islam.
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Israel seems to be an artificial state. Were there Jews under captivity in that region? |
There certainly were.
It was (and still is) Islamic practice to allow other religions, provided they pay an extra tax for the privalige.
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Who can deny the monstrocity of the Holocaust? |
If you read apolyton, quite a few. 
quote:
But the idea that Israel should be formed just so Jews have a home of their own and are not the scapegoats of Europeans doesn't click. |
Nor is it true.
It was formed out of recognition that this was the Jewish homeland, and that Britain had promised it as such in WWI (while also promising the arabs their own state).
The USA forced the UN to live up to it's word in 1948.
The Pals also got their own country (for the first time), but they are a greedy people, they wanted it all, even though they had no right to it all. They were dispised as refugees throughout the arab world, expelled from many countries.
This isn't just talk, it's fact.
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It seems Israel is just a projection of western interests in the region. It also serves american interests and that's why it is so heavily protected and praised in US and UK? media. |
What interest does it serve?
Both the USA and Britain bend over backwards to appease the petty and racist governments of Islam.
Freedom is a joke in the Muslim world.
The UN loves to condem Israel at every turn.
Where is the condemnation of these Islamic murderers who have been viciously murdering in a cause and war they started?
Nowhere, the damn hypocrits.
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Who's to say that these people deserve to have a state formed and those do not? : The interests big powers have. |
Should the czech republic exist? Modern Poland? Just two examples of nations created by big powers.
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However, these things are not important. |
Of course they are.
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What is important is that Palestinians should be allowed to live free. I think they have proven (much more than the Israelis) their craving for freedom. |
Ha!
The jews have been surrounded and outnumbered for over 50 years, yet managed to beat the blowhard armies of Islam time and again. All the Pals know how to do is murder teenagers at street malls.
quote:
How can one be on the side of an armed to the theeth people and not on the side of the deprived and the enslaved? |
Israel started as the deprived and enslaved, and fought their way out of it. Now the shoe is on the other foot.
This ends when the Pals behave like human beings and stop teaching hate and racism.
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That is why Israeli casualties take second place to Palestinian deaths. Israel has arms and the support of the world's remaining super power. What do the palestinians have? |
In my mind it's simple.
The Pals started this, and perpetuate it with violence.
Whenever the Pals don't get something, they send children to throw stones at armed men, send gulible idiots on to crowed buses and blow themselves up, all for the cameras, so the ignorant anti-semites can eat it up, and cry for the poor oppressed pals.
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With what weapons are they supposed to fight for their freedom? |
Reason, compromise, understanding and peace.
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Was there ever formed a palestinian state? No, because it is not in the interest of the big powers of today's world. |
The day israel was born, Palestine was also born.
They didn't want that, they wanted it all, so they conspired with Eygpt, Jordan, and Syria (with support from the rest of the muslim world) to kill all the Jews and take it all.
They lost.
Too damn bad.
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But these people keep on fighting against a whole world. And will keep on fighting untill the bitter end if need be, they have the flame of freedom. |
Your actually describing the Jews here, you know.
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Of course they are used as pawns too. And no one can guarantee that a free Palestine wouldn't fall back on dark regimes once it is truely independent. But it deserves a state. |
They can have one, when they behave if a civilized fashion and stop this senseless violence and racism, and not before.
quote:
How can I have sympathy for people dropping bombs with sophisticated weaponry and the others fighting back with rocks? |
Go read abot Israel's war of independance.
quote:
And Sharon having a clean hand to do whatever he pleases upon innocents. Who the hell does he think he is? If he ever visites an EU country he is to be arrested for crimes against humanity. And it is this man who leads Israel. And he is allowed to do so when people like Milosevic were taken care of. Why? |
The easiest answer of all.
That is just conjecture, not a proven fact, and if you want to talk real criminals, a good place to start would be the weapon manfacturers that have profitably supplied the Islamic world for decades, and that includes the USA.
See the danger of doing this as a joke?
It just gives a platform for those who hate and show no objectivity.
If I was a Jew, I would give those that tried to kill me and mine for years nothing.
Last edited by Chris 62 on 06-12-2001 at 22:46
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Frodo
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of Asteroid B-612
May 1999
time: 00:16
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I'm getting the impression now that fear is what drives this whole thing. Fear is the source of the anger, the hatred, and the violence. But fear of what? As I see it, the palestinians don't have much to lose; what they are afraid of has already happened. Their lives are clearly worthless to them. Israel, however, has everything to lose and is determined to keep what it has. This is a natural human tendency. The psychology of this whole situation is not staggeringly complex in the least. The difficulty here is in not reacting instinctively, with violence. Nonviolence doesn't always work, but violence never works. I think it is clear that the situation as it is has to change, because by nature of its very existence it inspires violence. If I were a Palestinian I would be throwing rocks at soldiers, and if I were an Israeli I would just want the Palestinians to disappear off the face of the earth. But there are no genetic differences in the slightest between Palestinians and Israelis; the Palestinians are not a "greedy people" and the Jews are not, either; they are just people, and they are behaving like any person would in the same situation. We hold our opinions by virtue of what we have seen and experienced; an Israeli has never had to stand for an hour and a half at a checkpoint for no good reason in the hot sun. A Palestinian has not lost an innocent friend to a suicide bomber.
I fundamentally disagree with any notion that two peoples cannot coexist peacefully because they possess inherent differences. I don't believe that such differences exist; they are falsely perpetrated by society. As far as religous differences go, religious fundamentalists like Hamas do not make up the majority of Palestine; the Palestinians are no more pleased with them than they are with Arafat. Most Palestinians do not need an overtly Islamic society. If they can practice their religion in peace, that should be enough for them. You learn to share when you're five years old. Where is the maturity here? There is no difference between the Palestinians and the Israelis. They are two groups of humans distinguishing themselves with two different arbitray labels that preserve only closed-mindedness.
If Palestinians breed like rabbits, it is not because they are Palestinian; the situation is the same for any group of people in a third-world situation. They have so many children because the children keep getting killed off (although they do place themselves in such a situation on purpose).
If the Palestinians are given equal rights, decent living conditions, enough space, their own representatives, why will they attempt to use these things to take over Israel? What would be the point of getting rid of Israel if they have all that is necessary for a good life? Why overthrow a government that favors them just as much as it favors Israel? Why would their population increase if it doesn't need to? The problem with predicting that the Palestinians would take advantage of any freedoms given them to deprive others of their freedoms is that such a prediction is based on the current behavior of Palestinians in their current situation. Place them in a different environment and they will not feel obligated to commit violent acts. Look at a diverse city like New York and you will observe the cultural homogeny that the melting pot leads to. With one state, the differences between Palestinians and Israelis will begin to fade as we have interracial marriages and the like, and soon there will be no conflict because no one will be able to tell who the enemy is.
Perhaps it is true that only Israel would stand in the way of one state with two religions. Israel would have to give up many of its advantages if equality were imposed. And it's true that I myself, in Israel's position, would look adversely upon such a notion. No one wants to give up what they've got. However, if one wishes to stop the violence, one must be fair. The analogies proposed are not comparable because they either deal with nations on two different continents in absurdly hypothetical situations or are in reference to reparations for peoples discriminated against far in the past. This is a situation that is happening now, and there is no similar event occuring in the world today.
Obviously if the Israel democracy is inspiring suicide bombers than it is not a "working democracy". Things do not work the way they are now. It is time for the parties involved to take a different approach to this matter and to discard the cloud of naivete that surrounds them. Petulantly bombing people into the stone age is a stone age tactic. We have language, we know how to communicate, and if we do not use these tools at hand the situation will never be fixed.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Frodo
the Palestinians are not a "greedy people" and the Jews are not, either; they are just people, and they are behaving like any person would in the same situation.
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I agree that Palestinians as people aren't bad. I've heard opinions of people from east Jerusalem - I can live with what they're saying. Actually , I mostly agree with them. But the fanatical bastards that are the leaders of the terrorist organizations , and their supporters want it all. It's no secret that the Muslim fundies want to control the world. But sadly, noone says a word about Sudan , Chechniya , and the Balkans , and if someone does say something , it's rather , "oh , the poor muslims are opressed again ... " . Islam is spreading , and it's bringing its' wrong values everywhere . I am very worried by it.
christianity doesn't worry me , because it's not gov't sponsored nowhere ,and Judaism is a non-expansionist religion. Are there other strictly religious states besides muslim ones ?
quote:
I fundamentally disagree with any notion that two peoples cannot coexist peacefully because they possess inherent differences. I don't believe that such differences exist; they are falsely perpetrated by society.
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so you disagree with the notion , or you say that this is not the case in Israel/Palestine
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As far as religous differences go, religious fundamentalists like Hamas do not make up the majority of Palestine; the Palestinians are no more pleased with them than they are with Arafat. Most Palestinians do not need an overtly Islamic society.
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So why the **** do they support it ? why the **** don't they make something about it ?
quote:
If they can practice their religion in peace, that should be enough for them.
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so you say it should be. apparently , Sudan , Saudi Arabia , and Iran don't agree with you. and so don't agree with you the Taliban , parts of the NA , Hamas , Hisbullah, Islamic Jihad, The Muslim Brothers... and the list goes on.
quote:
If Palestinians breed like rabbits, it is not because they are Palestinian; the situation is the same for any group of people in a third-world situation.
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no ! It's a ****ing religious matter . the ****ing Ultraorthodox Jews also do this , having 8 to 10 kids ! ****ing Usama Bin-Laden's dad , the Billionaire , had ****ing 60 kids !
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They have so many children because the children keep getting killed off (although they do place themselves in such a situation on purpose).
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you really over estimate the deaths due to hostilities in the region. Much more people die in traffic. It's the ****ing Social norma. If someone tried to open a Family planning clinic he would be probably decapitated .
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If the Palestinians are given equal rights, decent living conditions, enough space, their own representatives, why will they attempt to use these things to take over Israel? What would be the point of getting rid of Israel if they have all that is necessary for a good life?
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arabs in Israel are given all that , esp. if they live in the big cities ( we have a problem in the peripherias, but that is a social thing, not a racial , Jewish towns suffer as much ) . True, most of the arabs are
quote:
Why overthrow a government that favors them just as much as it favors Israel? Why would their population increase if it doesn't need to? The problem with predicting that the Palestinians would take advantage of any freedoms given them to deprive others of their freedoms is that such a prediction is based on the current behavior of Palestinians in their current situation. Place them in a different environment and they will not feel obligated to commit violent acts. Look at a diverse city like New York and you will observe the cultural homogeny that the melting pot leads to. With one state, the differences between Palestinians and Israelis will begin to fade as we have interracial marriages and the like, and soon there will be no conflict because no one will be able to tell who the enemy is.
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let's see what happens in countries that slowly have their religion of population statistics move gradually to more muslims. what has happened in FYROM? what has happened in the Phillipines ? ( Abu-Sayaf )
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Perhaps it is true that only Israel would stand in the way of one state with two religions. Israel would have to give up many of its advantages if equality were imposed.
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equality is in Israel . if one multi-religious state would be created between the Jordan and the Sea, we'll have Lebanon again. and I don't want that to happen .
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And it's true that I myself, in Israel's position, would look adversely upon such a notion. No one wants to give up what they've got. However, if one wishes to stop the violence, one must be fair.
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I agree to have a palestinian state by the Side of Israel , on 100% of the west bank and it's capital in eastern Jerusalem , with the temple mount being under a joint authority , with right of return strictly to the palestinian state , with a barb wire and a stone fence between us, preferably a channel full of crocodiles between us . Jews that are there (settlers ) will stay there if they want, and will have full rights and full duties , Arabs that want to stay here will have full rights and full duties . Strict immigration rules , until they can make their **** float . make the gulf states help them, they got the dough. I am getting ****ing Isolationist . I am getting more and more tired of solving their problems .
if they suddenly realized they are a nation , I say let them be a nation, get of my back . they can have the water sources , unless they pollute them and **** in my glass of water , and they can have all the ****ing army they want unless they shoot me. just leave us the **** alone .
they can breed like rabbits and turn the whole ****ing west bank into a giant slum. actually , while they **** in their own well, we'll be able to work on ****ing fusion power and make us some fine water from the sea ! They can sort out their own economy just like we did !
 
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Natan
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New York State
Sep 2000
time: 00:16
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Rogan Josh:
quote:
That has already been done. We have already demonstrated that resorting to terrorism can achieve your goals. That is how Israel was created in the first place. |
False, the British were getting rid of all of their colonies.
quote:
Imagine if the Germans had won the war. Imagine if they had reviled the US treatment of American Indians and declared that the entire east coast of the US should be made into an American Indian State. Imagine if the people who lived in there now had been told that they had a choice: they could be second class citizens or they can get out. Would that have been fair? |
The two situations are only analogous in the vaguest of all senses.
David Floyd: Why don't you next talk about how the Jews killed Christ, while you're on the subject of fictional crimes of the ancient world?
Your suggestion is absurd. You're pretending that the Palestinians would be happy with a secular state, coexisting with the Jews - but every Arab/Islamic either practices traditional Islamic law in some form or is governed by an imported totalitarian dictatorship. The Jewish state made a lot of sense - there was no society free of anti-semitism in the days of the early Zionist movement, and in fact millions of Jews have been saved by Israel from persecution and death. I have relatives who died because they decided not to go to Israel in the 30s. The fact is, Israel exists, and forcing six million people to leave their homes is absurd. You view Israel as a reward to people for past suffering, when it was (and remains) a refuge from present suffering.
I suggest you take your own advice:
quote:
Let's look at the situation as it is now, without looking at prior history. |
Israel is here, stop *****ing about how you'd rather the Jews shut up and die.
Frodo: I think that's a rosy view of human nature. If violence against a democracy is a sign it is flawed, I guess Hitler and Osama Bin Laden show the flaws in American democracy. Basically, there are evil people in the world, and there are also good people who don't want to live next to each other. I think this is the true meaning of diversity. If an Israeli married a Palestinian, their parents would be equally mortified, and neither side would like to merge with the other. Extremists, terrorists, etc. will not melt away, nor will national differences. The story of these two peoples is survival against all odds and the story is not yet finished.
Paiktis: The thing is though, the Jews are doing exactly the same thing. Sure, they have support now from America, but these things change over time. Just because a group has the support of super powers doesn't make it imperialist or artificial - Greek independence was achieved through British assisstance. I would also argue that the Palestinian Authority is a far more artificial entity (assuming, for the sake of argument, that term has any meaning at all) than Israel, since it was created by superpower arm twisting and has been sustained for 8 years simply because the superpowers want to keep the region quiet to keep the oil coming and to stop the terrorism from doing the same thing.
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06-12-2001 10:22
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