09-01-2002 05:21									#1
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I have bought civ call to power (not 2) about half a year ago for like 5$

I never noticed it was not produced by the same company as the original civ.

Also did i notice like everyone else, that a lot of things were better in call to power, even while i have never seen call to power 2.

Can someone explain me more of this, what is the relation between the makers of call to power and the other civs? and why didn't the makers of civ3 take the good things of ctp? There certainly must be a relation between the makers, because of copyrights and stuff.

I'm not too negative about civ3 by the way. Everyone is emphasing on the things that were better in other civs, but there also are improvements.
I really like the thing with the different kind of resources and the unit upgrades for example. Also did i always hoped for a more chalenging game since the other civs were way to easy on deity.

For me the game is still pretty much worth the money, i wont play it for months, but thats cuz i'm more of a real time strat player (starcraft)

	09-01-2002 20:59									#2
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Okay, here we go (again ). As you may or may not know, the inventor of the Civ genre (Sid Meier) used to work for MicroProse (now Hasbro IIRC). He made the first two Civ-games (Civ1, Civ2) and a bunch of add-ons and expansion packs and stuff for that company. Then he and his team left MicroProse to form their own company, Firaxis, and that's where the mess started.

At that point it wasn't very clear (or at least not to me) where the rights were. MicroProse sold the rights of the 'Civilization' name to Activision, who then started making Civilization: Call to Power. At the same time MicroProse itself (with a new team of programmers) made Civilization: Test of Time, while Firaxis was working on yet another Civ-clone called Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. However, soon after the sale to Activision Sid Meier (i.e. Firaxis) got/took the rights back. So then MicroProse nor Activision had the right to make any more Civ games (but C:CtP and Civ:ToT could still be produced and sold). However, Activision had now established their name as a 'Civ-company' and they used this reputation to create and sell Call to Power II (note that the 'Civilization:' prefix was removed - legally speaking C:CtP is a Civ-game but CtP2 is not). While Activision was working on CtP2, Firaxis began making Civ3.

So there is no relationship between the teams that made Civ3 and CtP (and Civ:ToT), it's just a very complicated legal issue. That's also why there for example isn't a Chariot or Elephant unit in C:CtP and not even a Legion or Phalanx in CtP2: if these games had been too similar to other Civ-games there would have been a copyrights problem. This is probably also why Civ3 doesn't have PW or CtP's combat system, though Firaxis claims they never looked at CtP and developed Civ3 completely independently from it. I don't believe this though: when CtP2 was just released some Firaxian made a brief post in a CtP2-poll here on Apolyton so they must have known something about it. The real reason is probably a combination of copyrights-issues and not wanting to be accused of 'stealing' CtP's ideas.

Fortunately though, C:CtP and especially CtP2 (contrary to Civ3) are extremely modifiable (thanks to SLIC) so instead of mourning that Civ3 doesn't have the good things of CtP you can do like we do in the CtP2 forums: take the good things from Civ3 and add those too CtP. They can sue companies but they can't sue modmakers (although horribly enough they have actually threathened to do just that - but that was a Civ3 modder so us CtPers are safe for now ).

	09-01-2002 21:11									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus not even a Legion or Phalanx in CtP2

Fortunatly I have German version of CTP2, they translated Hoplite with Phalanx.

But back to the topic CivCTP was a thougth as a sequel of Civ2, therefore there is something missing in Civ3 as Firaxis made a sequel of Civ2 and not CTP2, that's the problem with Civ3.

-Martin

	09-01-2002 22:11									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Fortunatly I have German version of CTP2, they translated Hoplite with Phalanx. -Martin

Actually, for history buffs like me that's rather unfortunate, Sid had it wrong in the first place A 'Phalanx' is a battlefield formation, not a military Unit. The unit is called 'Hoplite', like in CtP2 (just like with Legion -> Legionaire).

On the topic, I agree, it was the same for me. I always saw C:CtP as the sequel to Civ2 (even though I knew it really wasn't). I know I shouldn't condemn Civ3 for not being a sequel to CtP2 and jugde it as a seperate game (or at least as a sequel to Civ2) but that *is* exactly why I don't like it (and because you can't mod it of course )...

	09-01-2002 23:28									#5
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So here is my conclusion of these two ideas:

CivCTP = sequel to Civ2
CTP2 = sequel to CivCTP

Therefore:

CTP2 = the real Civ4

So why should I buy Civ3 there is no need to downgrade.

-Martin

	10-01-2002 00:19									#6
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quote: I don't believe this though: when CtP2 was just released some Firaxian made a brief post in a CtP2-poll here on Apolyton so they must have known something about it.

Yeah, I remember that too, so I tried to look it up. Brief??? In a thread asking if you have a copy of CTP2 yet:

quote: Got ours! Jeff [Jeffrey Morris]

I also seem to recall another one where someone from Firaxis said that it's not a very good game, but I couldn't find it.

BTW, nice one Martin. As you pointed out in another thread there are references in Civ:CTP's files to it being Civ3, but I never thought of it that way.

	10-01-2002 01:04									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs Yeah, I remember that too, so I tried to look it up. Brief??? In a thread asking if you have a copy of CTP2 yet:

That's the one...

Heh? Where *did* you find that? I thought all posts but the ones of the last 2 weeks or so were unavailable because we're on a new server? Just this afternoon I tried looking for all posts by me in this forum and only found 2 or so

quote: I also seem to recall another one where someone from Firaxis said that it's not a very good game, but I couldn't find it.

I remember that too. At first I was confused, I remembered the post you quoted above but wasn't sure whether it said 'got ours' or 'it's not that good' (or whatever) but now you mention it, it were 2 posts (no idea where the other is though)...

quote: BTW, nice one Martin. As you pointed out in another thread there are references in Civ:CTP's files to it being Civ3, but I never thought of it that way.

The only problem here is: I don't really see CtP2 as a real sequel to C:CtP. I know it is, but it doesn't really feel like it - maybe it's because I've played alpha and beta builds too and the change for me was thus much more gradual than for you guys. Intuitively, it's more of an expansion pack (CtP1.5) than a sequel. But that would still make it Civ3.5

	11-01-2002 15:38									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus The only problem here is: I don't really see CtP2 as a real sequel to C:CtP. I know it is, but it doesn't really feel like it - maybe it's because I've played alpha and beta builds too and the change for me was thus much more gradual than for you guys. Intuitively, it's more of an expansion pack (CtP1.5) than a sequel. But that would still make it Civ3.5

From this point of view Civ3 would be something like a Civ2.5, as we know that Firaxis still use the same graphics engine and the same week tile improvement system.

So the gap would be still one. With the advantage that there would be a gap between Civ3 and CivCTP.

-Martin

	11-01-2002 23:43									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann From this point of view Civ3 would be something like a Civ2.5, as we know that Firaxis still use the same graphics engine and the same week tile improvement system.

Well, if you followed my activities in the Civ3 forums a few weeks/months ago you'll surely have seen the vigurous debates I've had some fanatic Civ2/3 fans, trying to convince them that Civ3 *is* indeed Civ2.5. So yes, I couldn't possibly agree more

	14-01-2002 18:06									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus On the topic, I agree, it was the same for me. I always saw C:CtP as the sequel to Civ2 (even though I knew it really wasn't). I know I shouldn't condemn Civ3 for not being a sequel to CtP2 and jugde it as a seperate game (or at least as a sequel to Civ2) but that *is* exactly why I don't like it (and because you can't mod it of course )...

I wouldn't call C:CtP as a sequel to Civ2. It might be a civ flavor but it is a new attempt to recreate a civ game with many and important differences like exellent graphics, extended modification support, different battle model, different approach in tile impoving, etc.

SMAC is somehow a sequel to Civ2, something between Civ2 and Civ3. Besides its story begins where the Civ2's ends. The journey to Alpha Centauri. Civ2 & 3 might be historic civs and SMAC a science fiction one but they are more relative to each other than with any CtP.

I like Civ3 quite lot but I expected more from it. I just didn't feel as I first felt when I played C:CtP. After 5 years from the release of Civ2 I expectd a far more improved and realistic civ game and I found another civ2 game with better graphics and some differences.

	15-01-2002 06:24									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen I wouldn't call C:CtP as a sequel to Civ2. It might be a civ flavor but it is a new attempt to recreate a civ game with many and important differences like exellent graphics, extended modification support, different battle model, different approach in tile impoving, etc.

IMHO, this is what every sequel should try to do: recreate the original but 10 times better. Too bad most games don't...

quote: SMAC is somehow a sequel to Civ2, something between Civ2 and Civ3. Besides its story begins where the Civ2's ends. The journey to Alpha Centauri. Civ2 & 3 might be historic civs and SMAC a science fiction one but they are more relative to each other than with any CtP.

I have to agree here. SMAC is a sequel to Civ2 in every way: story, gameplay, everything. It almost qualifies as a decent sequel too (story, atmosphere, unit workshop, diplomacy, SE), but it's still too similar to Civ2 in gameplay to me. I'd call it a Civ2.7...

quote: I like Civ3 quite lot but I expected more from it. I just didn't feel as I first felt when I played C:CtP. After 5 years from the release of Civ2 I expectd a far more improved and realistic civ game and I found another civ2 game with better graphics and some differences.

I don't like it all that much and I couldn't agree more: it should have been much better. Barely qualifies as Civ2.5...

I'm just waiting to win the lottery so I can buy Firaxis and Activision and merge the three

	15-01-2002 12:58									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus I'm just waiting to win the lottery so I can buy Firaxis and Activision and merge the three

That would be the start of a new era in civ world. Far better products

	18-01-2002 15:09									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus I have to agree here. SMAC is a sequel to Civ2 in every way: story, gameplay, everything. It almost qualifies as a decent sequel too (story, atmosphere, unit workshop, diplomacy, SE), but it's still too similar to Civ2 in gameplay to me. I'd call it a Civ2.7...

Wow SMAC = Civ2.7 this sytem would give us enough space between Sid Myer's next civ clones and CivCTP.

So here is my last thought about the Civ numbers, all these mods for CTP2 could be conted as expansion pack:

CTP2 + mods = The real Civ4

So now we should have all these numbers right.

And I can now tell all these Civ2.5 loosers that I am already play the real Civ4.

-Martin

	18-01-2002 22:46									#14
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Keygen,
You bet!

Martin,

quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann Wow SMAC = Civ2.7 this sytem would give us enough space between Sid Myer's next civ clones and CivCTP.

That's the idea I'm not all that confident about Sid's capabilities (at least not when he's too occupied with gulf to focus on important matters)

quote: So here is my last thought about the Civ numbers, all these mods for CTP2 could be conted as expansion pack: CTP2 + mods = The real Civ4 So now we should have all these numbers right.

I couldn't agree more

quote: And I can now tell all these Civ2.5 loosers that I am already play the real Civ4. -Martin

Yeah, baby!

	19-01-2002 02:51									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Yeah, baby!

Yeah, I am just trying to explain player1, why he posted a thread about Civ4 in the wrong forum.

-Martin

	19-01-2002 08:06									#16
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Go Martin, go Martin! That'll teach those infidels! We shall convert them all to The True Path, no matter how long it takes

	19-01-2002 16:33									#17
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quote: We shall convert them all to The True Path,

You mean assimilation.

	19-01-2002 18:25									#18
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We can simply subject them all to the AI Entity - or might that not be such a good idea..?

	19-01-2002 19:57									#19
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Yeah, we must only save every turn, and restart if necessary, than we must decrease the sliders if a revolution happens. Maybe a Mind controll emitter would help to controll the AI Entity.

I think this wonder is some kind of early Borg technology.

-Martin

	19-01-2002 21:27									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Martin Gühmann You mean assimilation.

Is there a difference?

quote: I think this wonder is some kind of early Borg technology.

Actually, it's Unimatrix 00

	20-01-2002 09:53									#21
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I just gotta add this, through all the gameplaying I have done, CIV2, CTP,CTP:2 and CIVIII (Although I dont care for all the crash & burn of trying to mod anything), I still find myself liken to an alcholic, I keep returning to Call To Power, I find new ways to re-invent varying game setups and gamestyles!

I never did care for CTP:2, and the two major reasons were the *&^%$ messed up Multiplayer inabilities and , well, I abhorred the way you had to kove your troops, I HATED having to go and click on the arrow in order to move someone, I would rather just click on the units!

Well, thats my $0.02 worth, ya'll have a great evening!


Troll-Mesiter

	20-01-2002 22:59									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Troll and , well, I abhorred the way you had to kove your troops, I HATED having to go and click on the arrow in order to move someone, I would rather just click on the units!

You can click and drag to move the units. I was fantastically p!ssed off 'til I discovered this.

	21-01-2002 01:49									#23
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Yeah, the drag-'n-drop technique is actually quite nice. But if you don't like that either, I think you can go into userprofile.txt and set CTP2Mode to No (I'm surprised IW didn't mention this, IIRC he was the one to report this first on the forums), that way you should get your old CtP1 mouse behaviour back...

	21-01-2002 05:19									#24
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To Mr.Wombat & Locutus:

Thanks much, because that one reason you are responding was a biggie for me. just simply objectionable to the point I couldnt stand it, I am fixing to re-install the game and try it out!

Have a blessed evening!

Yours In Civin

Brother Bruce A.K.A. "Troll"

	21-01-2002 14:10									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Troll I just gotta add this, through all the gameplaying I have done, CIV2, CTP,CTP:2 and CIVIII (Although I dont care for all the crash & burn of trying to mod anything), I still find myself liken to an alcholic, I keep returning to Call To Power, I find new ways to re-invent varying game setups and gamestyles! I never did care for CTP:2, and the two major reasons were the *&^%$ messed up Multiplayer inabilities and , well, I abhorred the way you had to kove your troops, I HATED having to go and click on the arrow in order to move someone, I would rather just click on the units! Well, thats my $0.02 worth, ya'll have a great evening! Troll-Mesiter

I will have to agree with you.

Along with Civ2, C:CTP is the best civ I ever played. And I have played all of them including SMAC/X with the exeption of the original Civilization.

Civ3 is good too but it needs to be improved a lot.

I didn't like CTP2. Although I've never moved any unit using the arrow (I first discovered the way Immortal Wombat describes) other features got me out of its spirit from the very first momment. The graphics though good were like a painting or something. Nothing like the bright colors of C:CTP. The absence of managing each worker, the awkward graphical interface where you have to open different windows to manage a city and the info box that gathers all information into a single small box instead of having the great small boxes in the right of the screen C:CTP is using and the total absence of PBEM capability were enough for me to put the game in the shelf. However its modification abilities are amazing, the best ever seen.

	21-01-2002 17:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Keygen I will have to agree with you. Along with Civ2, C:CTP is the best civ I ever played. And I have played all of them including SMAC/X with the exeption of the original Civilization. Civ3 is good too but it needs to be improved a lot. I didn't like CTP2. Although I've never moved any unit using the arrow (I first discovered the way Immortal Wombat describes) other features got me out of its spirit from the very first momment. The graphics though good were like a painting or something. Nothing like the bright colors of C:CTP. The absence of managing each worker, the awkward graphical interface where you have to open different windows to manage a city and the info box that gathers all information into a single small box instead of having the great small boxes in the right of the screen C:CTP is using and the total absence of PBEM capability were enough for me to put the game in the shelf. However its modification abilities are amazing, the best ever seen.

I agree with you too Keygen, the graphics need some help. I am also in agreement about the ability to mod, although I haven't, persay, "done a scenario", just merely done excluding and minor league map making. All in all, I find myself alone at my PC, staring at my tower of CD's,...heart beating, licking lips, cold sweat, the sudden THUD-Thud-t-h-u-d of my pulse,s-l-o-w-l-y beading sweat drops as I try looking other way, away from......NO NO..I gotta have my CTP! (1 & 2)..and then I am here,..."I'll fix those Mexicans and Egytptians from pirating me trade route!".....ahh..the relaxing life of a Civ-aholic!!!



Yours In Civin

Troll

	21-01-2002 23:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus I think you can go into userprofile.txt and set CTP2Mode to No (I'm surprised IW didn't mention this, IIRC he was the one to report this first on the forums), that way you should get your old CtP1 mouse behaviour back...

I forgot
I only tried this once, and it crashed. I never determined whether this was the CTP2Mode, or the mod I was testing

	23-01-2002 14:55									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus Is there a difference?

The first one sounds just too religious.

BTW: here is another thread where I found someone who needs a little bit of explaination/assimilation.

-Martin

	08-06-2004 09:35									#29
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Heh, I never really saw Activison as a civ producing game, and my first impressions of CTP where weak. I took it as being a Civ2 clone trying to get ppl to buy the game thinking it was a sequel to Civ2. The only things I didnt like about CTP was little things like the choices in the civs. Things like putting in the Brazilian, Canadian and Irish but leaving out the Babylonians!

But after playing it a while CTP is much better suited for MP than Civ2. And has some supierior quailties to it that Civ2 doesnt have. Some of the wonders in CTP dont make sence(like how does a big maze of death give you free trade?) but I guess its the same some of the Civ2 wonders.

I view CTP has a different game than the CIV series simply because it is legally.

I think the biggest problem CTP has now is the bugs and the lack of support from ACTIVISION! Aside from this site it seems CTP is pratically dead! Which is sad it really should be updated a little.