25-02-2002 03:19									#301
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France can do whatever it wants with the land it gets.

BTW, yes there is A LOT of negotiating...

	25-02-2002 03:59									#302
	Dive! Dive! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Here's a modification of the scenario's rules to include submarines. (which I thought were originally in the scenario untill El poointed out their absence). I'e also included graphics for the two types of subs. If no-one has any problems, I suggest we all adopt the new rules.

There are two types of sub:
1. Submersible (replaces guided missile) : 4a,2d, 2m 1h,1f, cost 4 requires invention. - This is an early model submarine, which were produced in their hundreds and mainly used for coastal defence (hence the short range)

2. Submarine (replaces jet fighter): 5a,3d, 4m 2h,2f, cost 8, requires Submarine warfare (which in turn requires submarine torpedos (preqs naval bases and steam turbines - replaces jet aircraft) and sea power
-This is a more modern sea going sub

	25-02-2002 04:00									#303
	Put an end to popups!

It might have helped if I'd attached the .zip file

Attachment: subs.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	25-02-2002 04:10									#304
	Increase Your PM Length

I'll try it out case!

	25-02-2002 04:37									#305
	Italian Foreign Ministry Press Statement Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In a speech today, the Italian Foreign Minister expressed his governments acceptance of Germany's decision to surrender it's remaining territory to the French.
The Minsiter justified this decision on the grounds that it would prevent further blood being shed, and that France was a trustworthy and peace loving nation ruled by men of wisdom and honour.

	25-02-2002 06:53									#306
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Guys read your e-mails, and listen to me, and try and make it fun! please

	25-02-2002 11:01									#307
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Fritz, El - how are your negotiations going? Will the game restart soon?

	26-02-2002 06:18									#308
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When can we start again please???


Pretty Please

	26-02-2002 08:38									#309
	Please read the "Readme" file sometime. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No, there are no submarines in this scenario. An oversight? Hardly.

Great Britain starts the scenario w/the wonder British Empire. This is Adam Smith renamed. In the original events file, Germany/Austria receive the Submarine Warfare tech sometime after the start of the game. The British Empire wonder expires when that tech appears. This is to better simulate what actually occurred during the period. Very few warships were sunk by German submarines. BY FAR, the real effect of the submarine on world wide warfare was the commerce-raiding abilities of the submarine, and that effect was profound in both cases, during both World Wars.

Also, when it comes to railroad placement at the start of the scenario, I took some liberties. Is it unrealistic to eliminate much of the historical railnet in eastern Europe at the time? Sure it is. BUT . . . if I didn't, the result could well be even more unrealistic. Xin Yu is adept at revealing just how a good railnet can be utilized by a shrewd player to produce startlingly unrealistic results; half of a player's empire can be taken in a single turn. Highly unlikely, and I blame this problem on the lack of foresight of the game's designers for making the rail have unlimited movement. It was a poorly-thought out idea and has the potential to spoil many a game.

The British have as large a fleet as the Russians? Technically, no, they don't. The British fleet was spread out all over the world. A good portion of English naval strength was elsewhere in 1900. Also, almost a dozen very early pre-dreadnought battleships were scrapped at about this time by the British; they were very much obsolete. HOWEVER . . . could I depend on the Civ2 players to "scrap" ships? No. I don't think so. SO . . . I "scrapped" them myself before they ever come into play and gave the British treasury a sizable boost instead.

Exile

	26-02-2002 10:27									#310
	And now for something serious Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Last night (Australian time) Winterfritz and I were chatting to Soundwave on MSN Messenger. During the coversation Soundwave admitted to hacking the saved file and spying on ANZAC's game. (see attached screenshot).
I've had to edit down the shot so that it fits into Apolyton's max picture size limits, but I have the original advailable for anyone who wants to see it. I understand that Fritz also took a screenshot of the conversation.

Now, while Soundwave may have been joking, (though he did nothing to indicate that this was the case) I think that this issue needs to be discussed in the open.

BTW, I know that it is possible to do what Soundwave claims to have done (Grothgar did it on an AoW save in the 'old' game in order to remove the password from a vanished players save).

Attachment: screenshot.gif
This has been downloaded 176 time(s).

Last edited by Case on 26-02-2002 at 10:35

	26-02-2002 10:33									#311
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And here's an edited transcript of the conversation (I've cut out the irrelevent stuff, and anything which touches on strategy). Again, I have the unedited version advailable for anyone who wants a look at it.


BTW: I'm Nick, Soundwave's Sean, and Witerfritz is himself , We're discussing Russia:

quote: Sean says: thats the thing... he has reverses, hes not stupid winterfritz_21@yahoo.com (E-mail Address Not Verified) says: those silly frenchmen ; ) Nick says: He's got no RR Sean says: he has 6 engineers working... he will have ALOT of rialway soon winterfritz_21@yahoo.com (E-mail Address Not Verified) says: but like I said, he can't replace that NON-unit army anytime soon Sean says: dont you two worry how i got this info Nick says: I've got 6 engineers operating as well Nick says: he didn't have a password? Sean says: he does Nick says: then? Sean says: i love civ2 so simply Nick says: ? Sean says: *hi i'm sean i'm a computer tech* winterfritz_21@yahoo.com (E-mail Address Not Verified) says: ? Sean says: lol Sean says: its a job Sean says: anyway Nick says: you have computers in NZ? winterfritz_21@yahoo.com (E-mail Address Not Verified) says: lol Nick says: sorry, I couldn't resist Sean says: yip, had to trade in the stone, didn't look as good Nick says: anyway, how do you know what ANZAC has? Sean says: look its calle hacking into the Civ2 System ok Sean says: but hush!, no-one is safe... hahahhaha winterfritz_21@yahoo.com (E-mail Address Not Verified) says: ! I thought that was called cheating, myself Nick says: ditto Sean says: look i haven't looked at you guys... i have honor, but russia scared me Sean says: shes like a virus getting bigger and bigger winterfritz_21@yahoo.com (E-mail Address Not Verified) says: and what if we start scaring you? Sean says: and more powerful as she crawls west Sean says: the thing is Russia cant go east

	26-02-2002 10:48									#312
	Well... Got spare money?

Well unless you guys decide to scrap the game due to these newly revealed "irregularities" on Soundwaves part, I'd love to take Austria if El Awrence would allow or, or Spain, or some other player if for some reason he's kicked out

Now I'm suddenly worried about the Blood & Iron pbem

	26-02-2002 11:34									#313
	Re: And now for something serious Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Case BTW, I know that it is possible to do what Soundwave claims to have done (Grothgar did it on an AoW save in the 'old' game in order to remove the password from a vanished players save).

Hrm, that was me I think
And yes its possible and very simple (regretably) perhaps the method should be kept secret for those who havent figured it out yet though.
If the password you entered last turn is gone the next though, that's a safe sign of someone manipulating the file. (however if someone as in this case have done nothing but to spy on thier oponents, it wont necesarily be visible in the file, as he might've used a copy to check on it).

It is rather serious that someone would feel the need to actually cheat though, IMO if someone cannot follow the rules he should be excluded (I wont tell you what to do in your own pbem though ).

And I agree James, perhaps we should be looking over the player list for Blood and Iron...
I have no urge to play against someone I dont trust to play fair...

	26-02-2002 13:36									#314
	Re: and now for something serious Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sadly Case is right. It happened like he said, and I also have a screenshot of the discussion.

I really don't know what to do here, and am open to suggestions from all the other members of this pbem, or any other experienced players for that matter.

	26-02-2002 14:41									#315
	Sad News... Get a bigger avatar today!

But before we try to make any rash decision, I would like to hear what Soundwave has to say about this!!!

	26-02-2002 19:04									#316
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Yes that would probably be wise

	27-02-2002 00:23									#317
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*comes to the stand in chains and handcuffs*

First of all i'm not a cheater! Never have never will cheating sinks.
I wouldn't do it coz i know how it feels to have a game when there is a cheat in there looking at my turns, coz i didn't have a password.

Secondly as i have told Case (Nick) in an agry e-mail, it was a joke to get France and Italy on my side after the Entente is destoryed. I couldn't have Britian by its self. Sorry Russia i will prove my innocents even at the price of a silly PBEM.

It was a joke plan and simple, not serious, i dont know how to hack and never have, i'm not a compter tech, I'm a bloody milkman for chirst sake and i love playing Civ2 and more so PBEM, coz its alot of Diplomacy and back door talking.

From now on, maybe i shouldn't make a joke, or say anything if it leads to this, i am deeply hurt by this and deeply disturbed that you cant say anything to any one anything its appualing!

Quote:
Sean says:
look its calle hacking into the Civ2 System ok
Sean says:
but hush!, no-one is safe... hahahhaha

*hahahhaha*- that mean laughing as kidding!

Sean says:
*hi i'm sean i'm a computer tech*
winterfritz_21@yahoo.com (E-mail Address Not Verified) says:
?
Sean says:
lol

-If anyone is on msn and others like yahoo * means an action or to do something funny... as i said b4 a milk i be, a computer tech i am not!

Nick says:
He's got no RR
Sean says:
he has 6 engineers working... he will have ALOT of rialway soon

-i was guessing, i dont know what hes got...


I think this is stupid i would like to claim defamation. As this has caused lost of Reutation, and lost of Face.

I give you my word i did not do it. If someone knows about knights or even christdom... they would know thats one of the highest things and if they broke there word hell waits when they die, and i'm Catholic, so heaven looks quite nice. (i can play civ2 all the time )

BTW- I dont know how to get in like Gothgar...

	27-02-2002 00:33									#318
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Well, soundwave, giving one's word is by far a very unreliable scenario nowadays, just look at all those politicians.

	27-02-2002 03:14									#319
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Soundwave *hahahhaha*- that mean laughing as kidding!

I thought that it was evil laughter, as in - "I can hack into everyone's game, so my enemies better fear me" type stuff.

quote: Originally posted by Soundwave -If anyone is on msn and others like yahoo * means an action or to do something funny... as i said b4 a milk i be, a computer tech i am not!

That was the first time I'd ever used MSN Messenger.
As the transcript shows, Fritz and I did sugest that what you had claimed to have done was cheating, an accusation which you didn't respond to, despite it's seriousness. Needless to say me and Fritz found this to be rather disturbing.

quote: Originally posted by Soundwave -i was guessing, i dont know what hes got...

ANZAC, what do you have?

quote: Originally posted by Soundwave I think this is stupid i would like to claim defamation. As this has caused lost of Reutation, and lost of Face. I give you my word i did not do it. If someone knows about knights or even christdom... they would know thats one of the highest things and if they broke there word hell waits when they die, and i'm Catholic, so heaven looks quite nice. (i can play civ2 all the time ) BTW- I dont know how to get in like Gothgar...

If I'm wrong, I will offer you an unconditional apology, and will do so in my sig so everyone can see it where-ever I post.

	27-02-2002 04:38									#320
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I would kindly ask an apology from Case and Winterfritz, i'm sorry guys but you saying that might end up with everyone saying you cant do a PBEM coz you cheat... its not right and its unfair.

Since Case you are older and i hought wiser you would have asked me about this first instead of proceading and telling everyone i had cheating, not even asking me!?

I can understand, since its your first time with msg, but ost times if not all, everyones having fun and joking.

And last but not least, can we just play the bloody game for **** sakes, (yes case i can swear like a trooper too) and is there an Austria or not, i wanna know so we can get on with this!

Thank you!

God damn *@$(@% @$&@)( @&*(% #*% ##* GRRRRR!

BTW- does everyone know how to take a joke, or kdding, i'm sorry but you have to understand i'm always having fun, lifes to short to be BORING!!!

	27-02-2002 04:42									#321
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You could also offer an apology for the 'confusion'.
No one wants to play with cheaters and joking about it isnt that funny.

-FMK.

	27-02-2002 05:08									#322
	Coming up to make a statement.... Inflate your Upload Space

First- Case and Winterfritz: Don't apologize!! How were you two supposed to know that Soundwave wasn't hacking the save? And when seriously questioned, he remained ambiguous.

And what have I been doing? Well, I have not been making threatening maneuvres on my allies and I have been building my industrial infrastructure, if I have the money. Also Winterfritz can probably support the claim that I am developing, his freights probably see it.

Soundwave: First, if you had really hacked my file, I would have booted you off. But you didn't so I don't. Soundwave, you have to understand that people don't like dealing with a lying, conniving, ambiguous player in a PBEM game. It doesn't gain allies quickly, it makes you lose them. So there is what I have to say.

	27-02-2002 05:12									#323
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: *hahahhaha*- that mean laughing as kidding!

I also took that as the sort of evil laugh people do.

Anyway, so what about Spain or Austria for me, eh, eh?

	27-02-2002 06:29									#324
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, we can never be sure if the game was hacked or not. Perhaps he didn't even post the hacked save.

	27-02-2002 07:46									#325
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Soundwave, I wish to apologise for not discussing this matter with you before posting it on this board. It was a major error of judgement for which I am truely sorry.



As for the 'cheating'; seeing that during our conversation you didn't respond to Winterfritz and I's sugestion that you were cheating, and in fact continued expressing your fear of the Russians, I have some doubts on wether to beleive your explinations.
As Henrik says that such hacking is easy for those who know how to do it, [which I don't] then I guess it dosn't matter wether you deliver milk or fix mainframes.

However, I prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt, and am happy to have you continue in this game, either as the British, or the Austrians under the conditions I agreed to earlier.

Case

	27-02-2002 08:35									#326
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Look.. i didn't cheat, i dont know how, even if i did, i dont watn to coz yes i know if you cheat you shouldn't play, i know that, and i knew the consequnces, so why would i do it? I WOULDN'T!!

I think that most ppl in the HS- Scenario League, are why too serious, honestly i dont understand the whole thing of me making a joke and get this! But i do admit i am at fault for 2 reasons, not saying anything when Case and Winterfritz said something (sorry i was talking to my g/f and my sis in aussie too so yea sorry) and i shouldn't have brought it up as a joke, i'll only do that with fellow NZers coz they can take a joke.. or a weird msg and laugh it off. Also cant we all just get along!

And about Anzac post lighten up GEEZ i dont know how to hack, truthfully!

God damn, can we please get on with the Game please, and forgive and forget, coz i'm pass caring about it i know i didn't i swore and el i'm not a politican so theres my truthful statement.

BTW- Sorry to anyone i have offened, i just which it was like b4 this stupid thing was posted.

	27-02-2002 12:22									#327
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Fair enough Soundwave. But while I'm prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt here, don't try to shift the blame for this onto me and Case. I think most of us have agreed that your statements are best understood as a straightforward admission to cheating. Me and Case were simply acting on that 'proof.'
You should have thought about those messages before sending them.

However, it does suck that your reputation has been screwed over like this. For that I apologise. You're right, we should have consulted you first, before posting the evidence like that.

If everyone agrees, I say we all go back and edit the posts about this, deleting it all. No one else need know about this, I'd like to just forget the whole sordid affair and get on with the game.

	27-02-2002 14:54									#328
	Settled for me... Tired of ads?

For me, the matter is now over!! I'm willing to believe that Soundwave only made a bad joke (by the way, Soundwave, the fact that people do have a sense of humour doesn't mean that everything is funny ) and I would be glad to continue the game.

And I think 2 pages about this matter is enough!! Maybe someone learned that not everybody finds everything funny, and some others that maybe discussing things before accusing might sometimes be better...

And maybe a last one was happy to use the occasion to "patronize" over his fellow younger players .

So, everybody ready to keep on playing??

And about the Austrian matter : I would prefer the game with Austria, and if possible with El Awrence (but I would welcome JamesJKirk as well ).

	28-02-2002 02:50									#329
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

OK look forgotten, so how do we delete it?


(oh if you look at the NWO PBEM if i knew how to hack don tyou think i would of to get the password off! DUH!)

The thing was i was going to give england to el and have Austria myself (some of my family come from there) or have el as austria.

Yes ok, everyone has a sense of humour

oh gotta use this

HEHEHE!

Ok lets decide!

	28-02-2002 03:39									#330
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The posts in question can be removed by either me or a mod editing them.

However, at present I have no intention of doing this. I'd rather this matter stay out in the open, and the complete record of posts continue to be advailable.


Warvoid: If you are asked to delete or edit my posts, I request that you discuss the matter with me via PM's or email before doing so.
---------


Fritz, are you ready to play your turn?