17-01-2002 07:47									#1
	The weak and stupid survive Got spare money?

It used to be only the strong.

How are we going to replace natural selection? It got us where we are today.

I think when we understand the human genome we will be able to get back on the evolutionary road instead of the devolutionary road.

	17-01-2002 07:48									#2
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Is this another thread about welfare?

	17-01-2002 07:49									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Is this another thread about welfare?

No, this is about improving the human gene pool.

	17-01-2002 07:51									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia No, this is about improving the human gene pool.

Some would argue abolishing welfare and government assistance may help that.

	17-01-2002 07:55									#5
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Easy. We need to revert to a situation in which nature is allowed to do its work easier. Thus, all we have to do is destroy technology and man-made shelter (houses, office buildings, etc.). Once humanity is again exposed to the elements without advanced tools, he will naturally have to fight for his daily survival once again.

Of course, all computer geeks would die in the first wave of violence. Actually, they'd probably die just at having their computers disconnect in the preparation phase. Then scientists and teachers. No, lawyers first because they'd be trying to sue people for property damage instead of digging bunkers and hording food.

Hate to say it, but women wouldn't fare too well. They'd need to latch on to an Alpha Male and be subservient for a good 500 years until things settle.

Once the slate has been wiped clean in this way, progress will be silky smooth.

	17-01-2002 07:57									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Some would argue abolishing welfare and government assistance may help that.

It would, but that isnt politically feasable, and neither is it humane.

	17-01-2002 07:57									#7
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You want natural selection and evolution back? Forsake technology and live on the savanna-land with 1,000 other people. That gene pool should be small enough and exposed to harsh enough conditions to generate some interesting mutations.

Personally however, I quite like modern civilization. I like pointing out to my anti-technological friends that today's society is the richest, healthiest, best educated, and longest lived society to ever exist in the entire history of our species. We've gotten rid of most forms of natural selection (which is a brutal, harsh form of weeding, where thousands upon thousands die in exchange for a few, small improvements). Cultural, memetic evolution has replaced biological evolution as the driving force behind improvement.

And frankly, that's a good thing.

	17-01-2002 07:58									#8
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No..... letting evolution take its course on humankind might help the gene pool in the long run (a million years or so) but in the short term it will be catastrophic!

If you suddenly unplug everything (medical care, welfare etc) which are currently suspending human evolution, the following will happen:

Life Expectancy will plunge to thirty.
All the plagues, like malaria, typhus, bubonic plague, measles, rubella, polio etc will resume wrecking havoc.
Infant Mortality will rise to something like 50%.

The result?

Half of us around here would be dead in a couple of years. All of you (and me) teenagers would be half-way thru life. Thirty and over will be old age. And for every two kids you have one will die before the age of five.

Evolution is dependent on the death of the weaker and the unluckier...
If evolution suddenly resumes in today's world, the consequences on our living standards and societal structure will be catastrophic.


So..... wait out these few thousand years. There's no way the gene pool will degrade by too much. After a few centuries genetic engineering most probably will be employed to continue where evolution left off - to improve the gene pool.

Last edited by ranskaldan on 17-01-2002 at 08:05

	17-01-2002 07:59									#9
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Once the slate has been wiped clean in this way, progress will be silky smooth.

You call that progress? Very funny...

	17-01-2002 07:59									#10
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Of course, all computer geeks would die in the first wave of violence. Actually, they'd probably die just at having their computers disconnect in the preparation phase.

Not all computer geeks only have computer skills, you know.

I spent I-Don't-Know-How-Many years in the Boy Scouts, I go camping out in the mountains quite a bit with friends for a night, and I used to play Baseball and Soccer (competitively) before moving back to The Empire a a few years ago.

	17-01-2002 08:01									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Starchild You want natural selection and evolution back?

NO! I am talking about how we will be able to manipulate the human genome to our advantage when the tech gets advanced enough.

	17-01-2002 08:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan So..... wait out these few thousand years. There's no way the gene pool will degrade by too much. After a few centuries genetic engineering most probably will be employed to continue where evolution left off - to improve the gene pool.

YES! That is exactly what I am talking about!

	17-01-2002 08:03									#13
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quote: I spent I-Don't-Know-How-Many years in the Boy Scouts.

I stand corrected. The skills you gained for your Knot Tying merit badge would allow you to make an escape rope out of bed sheets to flee your burning house.

Once safely on the ground, you'd be busy about the process of setting up a tent made of dirty linen when a hockey dad bonks you on your head to steal your loafers. At which point, we lose track of exactly what happens to you...

	17-01-2002 08:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I stand corrected. The skills you gained for your Knot Tying merit badge would allow you to make an escape rope out of bed sheets to flee your burning house. Once safely on the ground, you'd be busy about the process of setting up a tent made of dirty linen when a hockey dad bonks you on your head to steal your loafers. At which point, we lose track of exactly what happens to you...

I'm not sure what to make of that.

But I'm not any worse off than the vast majority of urban dwellers these days.

It's a harsh stereotype everyone gives computer geeks. You'd be quite surprised how athletic some of them are. Some are even sociable.

	17-01-2002 08:06									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You call that progress? Very funny...

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic

	17-01-2002 08:11									#16
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They sure do and they keep making stupid threads like this one

The reason we don't determine who should be in the gene pool is that for the most part these kind of schemes have been more based on racism rather than improving the gene pool. The Nazis, white suppremacists and whatever fringe group believe themselves to be superior are all subscribers to this theory.

We also don't know what kind of kind of genes so called inferior people have. If we only let people who don't have a chance of having a mental retarded kid procreate we could be losing a vital gene that might allow us to ward off some virus or adapt so some change in the enviroment. Genetics has not advanced so much that we know what each gene does. That;s the reason we procreate so that maybe some mutation may save the species from an unknown disaster.

	17-01-2002 08:12									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic

I know

	17-01-2002 08:15									#18
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quote: Originally posted by ThePantaloonDog We also don't know what kind of kind of genes so called inferior people have.

Eventually we will, and we will be able to select what we want and eliminate what we dont want.

	17-01-2002 08:16									#19
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Can we list names now?

	17-01-2002 08:17									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia NO! I am talking about how we will be able to manipulate the human genome to our advantage when the tech gets advanced enough.

Eugenics is only used by nazis and other people who should be designated as hate criminals should they ever manage to pull anything off.

It's a fine line between wiping out all the handicapped people (even if it's by manipulating their genomes) and wiping out people with other "undesirable" traits. You start talking about people being intrinsically better or worse than others.

	17-01-2002 08:17									#21
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Well, the "logical" thing to do for a start is to discourage (or prevent, even?) those likely to pass on obvious genetic disadvantages (initial thinking - Huntington's, Cystic Fibrosis) from procreating. This is extremely thin ice however... I mean, where do you stop? Thick people? People with red hair? "Can of worms", anyone?

DISCLAIMER: I'm not advocating this. So don't even say it.

	17-01-2002 08:18									#22
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quote: Eugenics is only used by nazis and other people who should be designated as hate criminals should they ever manage to pull anything off.

Who said eugenics? He said use technology to eliminate handicaps and diseases in the genome. The so-called 'designer babies'. Not a bad idea at all.

	17-01-2002 08:22									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit Eugenics is only used by nazis and other people who should be designated as hate criminals should they ever manage to pull anything off.

Thats not true actually. The US and many european counries had eugenics programs going long before hitler came to power. If it wasnt for Hitlers abuse of eugenics it would probably still be in practice today.

quote: Originally posted by Goingonit It's a fine line between wiping out all the handicapped people (even if it's by manipulating their genomes) and wiping out people with other "undesirable" traits. You start talking about people being intrinsically better or worse than others.

The fact is that some people are intrinsically better or worse than others. Just as in the plant and animal kingdom, because after all, we are just glorified monkeys.

	17-01-2002 08:23									#24
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Hey Caligastia. If the weak and stupid didn't survive, what chance would you have? Do you have a death wish?

	17-01-2002 08:25									#25
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Well, the "logical" thing to do for a start is to discourage (or prevent, even?) those likely to pass on obvious genetic disadvantages (initial thinking - Huntington's, Cystic Fibrosis) from procreating. This is extremely thin ice however... I mean, where do you stop? Thick people? People with red hair? "Can of worms", anyone?

That would be logical, but its not politically feasable at this point.

	17-01-2002 08:29									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Hey Caligastia. If the weak and stupid didn't survive, what chance would you have? Do you have a death wish?

Well you wouldnt be around if all the criminals had been exterminated instead of being sent to that big southern desert you call home...

	17-01-2002 08:29									#27
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Free condoms, Free birth control pills, Free sterilization.

	17-01-2002 08:33									#28
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quote: That would be logical, but its not politically feasable at this point.

Hence "logical"...

	17-01-2002 08:35									#29
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Hence "logical"...

	17-01-2002 08:36									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Free condoms, Free birth control pills, Free sterilization.

That would be a good start.