21-01-2002 22:04									#31
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Slavery Museum

Jon Miller
(and yes I think it would be unfortunate if it was used as a racial attack)

	21-01-2002 22:07									#32
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Throughout the South there are slavery museums, just not per se. They are called plantation tours. You can go on one of these tours, and see the beautifully kept grounds, see the beautiful and huge mansions, see examples of the fabulous wealth, and not one mention of the people who worked and built these places (if they do, it is generally the owner that is given all the creidt). ONE, one plantation in the whole of the South has maintain the slave quarters (most have been demoslished) and give a tour talking about what slavery is really like.

Slavery needs a museum, because too many people simply want to whitewash it from our history. Yes, it should deal with Black and Indian slave holders. It should deal with Indian slaves and white indentured servants. And yes, it should deal with the African side of the slave trade. But that would still constitute only a minority of the institution as it was practiced in the United States.

BTW, Slowhand, Africans did not sell "their own people." They sold their neighbors. Europeans did the same damned thing. The English sold criminals and Irish as indentured servents. Parents sold their children. Debtors were sold by those whom they owed.

I do hope that the slavery museum covers indentured servitude, because it was actually crueler than slavery. Although 1/3rd of African captives died on the voyage over, few indentured servents lived to see the end of their "contract." Since you owned a slave for life, you had more of an investment, and you took better care than someone youhad only for seven years. Indentured servents were worked harder and treated harsher than slaves.

And yet today, what does anyone really know of either institution. Slavery is seen as bad, but not the horror it really was. Indentured servitude is barely mentioned. (Jim Crow is almost forgotten, and it is still within living memory.) A museum is needed.

I think this thread is the proof that Caligastia really just doesn't like Black people.

Chris 62, the slavery built American is an exaggeration, but it contains a kernal of truth. Much of the start up capital for building the United States was generated by the cotton trade (the majority of it came from British investment, but then again, this was based on the cotton trade). Black slaves did not build America per se, but their unpaid labor helped spark our industrial revolution. Since most people don't remember precise details, but rather the jist of things, this gets translated into Black slaves built America. (At least this is my theory.)

	21-01-2002 22:09									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Ok, I want an Irish immigrant museum. Let's all be represented. I believe there is one.

I was incorrect, there are several. Do a search on Hotbot.

	21-01-2002 22:19									#34
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As a matter of fact, Australia just celebrated the first penal colony established by the British there, how many ever years ago.

This is the basic reason for ill will betweeen Aussies and Americans vs. Britain.
We came from penal colonies or left in protest.
Why would we embrace them crushingly later?

	21-01-2002 22:25									#35
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quote: I think this thread is the proof that Caligastia really just doesn't like Black people.

What a load of bullshit! Just because I am against a slavery museum you call me racist?! You dont know me. If you did you wouldnt say such things.

I have some good friends who are black, but I dont care what their race is. A friend is a friend. They respect my opinion on these matters and some of them agree with me.

	21-01-2002 22:35									#36
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Yeah, whatever. You constantly post threads criticizing Black people, their politics, their culture, without ever once trying to understand their (many and varied) points of view.

	21-01-2002 22:50									#37
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, whatever. You constantly post threads criticizing Black people, their politics, their culture, without ever once trying to understand their (many and varied) points of view.

You can think what you like Chegitz. I dont give a toss.

	21-01-2002 23:07									#38
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Cal: the person you're quoting is incredibly idiotic, you don't bury troubling history you dig it up and take a hard look at it and try to understand it. Not having a slavery museum in America is every bit as ridiculous as not having a holocaut museum in germany. Issues such as the African end of the slave trade should certainly be included (the politics of the short lived slave exporting african states is pretty interesting), dividing up history into victims and victimizers is nearly as ridiculous as white supremecist revisionist history.

And I'd have to agree with che, you appear to be quite racist.

	21-01-2002 23:26									#39
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Woah woah...everyone's entitled to their own opinion and just because Cali is against such a museum doesn't make him a racist. Lets drop the PC bullshit and just let people express their opinions without dragging out the insults.

quote: Not having a slavery museum in America is every bit as ridiculous as not having a holocaut museum in germany.

If the German's look back and are ashamed of the holocaust, what would make it ridiculous that they not build a museum to show the horrors of what they are responsible for?

Personally I'm for such a museum, I think it would be interesting and informational, and I don't think anyone would be slanted because of it. As stated, it can discuss all types of slavery throughout history or even just American history and wouldn't target just one race.

	21-01-2002 23:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Zhu Yuanzhang Cal: the person you're quoting is incredibly idiotic, you don't bury troubling history you dig it up and take a hard look at it and try to understand it. Not having a slavery museum in America is every bit as ridiculous as not having a holocaut museum in germany. Issues such as the African end of the slave trade should certainly be included (the politics of the short lived slave exporting african states is pretty interesting), dividing up history into victims and victimizers is nearly as ridiculous as white supremecist revisionist history. And I'd have to agree with che, you appear to be quite racist.

I dont really have a problem with the idea of a slavery museum, but in this case I just dont believe it will tell the whole story.

Can you tell me why the quote is "incredibly idiotic"?

I guess you and Che percieve me as racist. Thats your perception, not the truth. I like like to bring up controversial issues, what can I say. You just have to take my word for it that I am not racist. If you dont believe me...oh well. Nothing I can do about it.

	21-01-2002 23:48									#41
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Some museums we DO have (courtesy Yahoo!):

Banana Museum, The - gallery of banana folk art, artifacts
Frog Museum - collection of frog figurines and objects
American Museum of Papermaking - renowned resource on the history of paper and paper technology featuring a remarkable collection of watermarks, papers, tools, machines, and manuscripts.
Cumberland Pencil Museum - tells the story of pencils and pencil making, with information on the history of graphite mining in the area and machinery displays.
Museum of Menstruation - discover the rich history of menstruation and women's health.
Philadelphia Insectarium - an all-insect museum.
National Cable Television Center & Museum - provides a look at the history of the cable television industry and the people that shaped it.


and, from the Great White North:

Prince Edward Island Potato Museum - learn about the potato and treasures from the past.

But no museum of slavery?? I sense a need.

	21-01-2002 23:53									#42
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quote: Originally posted by orange Woah woah...everyone's entitled to their own opinion and just because Cali is against such a museum doesn't make him a racist. Lets drop the PC bullshit and just let people express their opinions without dragging out the insults.

If it was just the one time, I'd agree with you. Caligastia, however, has a pattern of posting threads that basically go like this. "Look at this outrageous view that Black people have! What's wrong with them?" (Obviously I am engaging in a bit of hyperbole here, but not much.) After the tenth or so thread, one begins to think that perhaps Calig's problem is not that he has occassional differences of opinion with certain views in the Black community, but rather that he has a problem with Black people in general.

Just because you have a problem recognizing patterns, Orange, doesn't mean that calling Caligastia on this crap is PC.

	22-01-2002 00:03									#43
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If it was just the one time, I'd agree with you. Caligastia, however, has a pattern of posting threads that basically go like this. "Look at this outrageous view that Black people have! What's wrong with them?" (Obviously I am engaging in a bit of hyperbole here, but not much.) After the tenth or so thread, one begins to think that perhaps Calig's problem is not that he has occassional differences of opinion with certain views in the Black community, but rather that he has a problem with Black people in general. Just because you have a problem recognizing patterns, Orange, doesn't mean that calling Caligastia on this crap is PC.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill Chegitz. I dont post threads on race that often, and even if I did, so what? It doesnt mean I am racist. I just happen to think differently than you on these issues.

	22-01-2002 00:13									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If it was just the one time, I'd agree with you. Caligastia, however, has a pattern of posting threads that basically go like this. "Look at this outrageous view that Black people have! What's wrong with them?" (Obviously I am engaging in a bit of hyperbole here, but not much.) After the tenth or so thread, one begins to think that perhaps Calig's problem is not that he has occassional differences of opinion with certain views in the Black community, but rather that he has a problem with Black people in general. Just because you have a problem recognizing patterns, Orange, doesn't mean that calling Caligastia on this crap is PC.

Your just an anti American commie aggitator that has no respect for what this country really stands for. You are the same communistic scum that killed millions in Russia and China and if you had your way, America would be consumed by the same forces that have destroyed so many lives around the world. You are UN-American.


At least that would "appear" to be the case. A pattern does exist.

Cal seems to upset that the slavery museum is more of a political spectical then an attempt to understand slavery. Which depending on who is behind it and how accurate it is, he may be right or not. Your accusation of racism is an often used tactic by some to scare away or somehow lessen another point. Maybe he is just tired of the new American saying "look at me, I'm a victim". He has his doubts about the true motives behind the push. I do as well. But my opionion is let them have their museum and see what comes of it. If it doesn't present all the facts then I'm sure that there will be many people out there to do it for them.

	22-01-2002 00:18									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Your just an anti American commie aggitator that has no respect for what this country really stands for. You are the same communistic scum that killed millions in Russia and China and if you had your way, America would be consumed by the same forces that have destroyed so many lives around the world. You are UN-American. At least that would "appear" to be the case. A pattern does exist.

Yeah, but you wouldn't be far off the mark, either. (inserts pinky in corner of mouth)

	22-01-2002 00:22									#46
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quote: 1) The South attacked the North first

You couldn't be more wrong.

First of all, I assume you are talking about Fort Sumter, which is the most obvious example.

When South Carolina seceded, South Carolina ordered all US troops out of its borders, of which the troops in Ft. Sumter were within. Both the commander of the fort, and the US government, refused to withdraw its troops, and further, President Buchanan ordered the resupply of Ft. Sumter.

After an ultimatum for withdrawal passed, South Carolina troops under PGT Beauregard fired on the fort, killing NO US troops, and forcing the surrender of Fort Sumter.

However, the aggression was on the part of the United States, by refusing to withdraw from South Carolina when ordered to do so, after the legal and proper secession of South Carolina. Further, ordering the resupply of the fort was another instance of aggression. In fact, these actions constituted valid acts of war, and thus South Carolina and a valid casus beli against the United States, a casus beli which was soon gained by all other states of the CSA upon the invasion of Virginia and the subsequent First Battle of Manassas (or Bull Run, to the Yankees).

Sorry to get off on a tangent, but what you said about the South attacking first was simply a case of history being rewritten by the victors, and had no basis in fact.

	22-01-2002 07:24									#47
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Ideally, a slavery museum should include a history of slavery throughout the world in all its forms. It should mention that slavery continues to this day. It is not history. It is part of out present.

The slavery museum should also explain how slavery created the conditions that led whites to consider blacks as sub-human. These attitudes did not end with the abolishing of slavery. The continuation of the slave owner mentality among whites explains why whites were willing to murder blacks in public well into the 20th Century, and that the killers were able to get away with it. The slaveowner mentality explains why blacks were denied their civil rights until the 1960s.

The museum should explain how slavery created a cycle of poverty that contunues to this day. This should be done not as means for finding excuses, but rather to find the root causes so that we can then find solutions.

The museum should mention how a few blacks sold other blacks and that a few blacks oppressed their own people, but it should also state that this in no way justifies nor minimizes the evils committed by whites against blacks.

In other words, the slavery museum should not whitewash the history of slavery just to make white or black people feel better. It should be controversial. It should make us think.

	22-01-2002 07:26									#48
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duplicate post

	22-01-2002 07:57									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The US government is an institution, do you really think it had less influence on the US than slavery? Im no historical scholar, but I doubt it. I would be interested to see what Chris 62 has to say about this.

Slavery was the largest single driver of the US economy in the first half of the 19th century - about 75% of US export earnings came from cotton and textiles.

Six million and a few people (out of about 35 million total), the entire basis of the Federal-state issues in the Constitution (otherwise, it would have never been ratified), etc. etc. Literally the entire development of the US and its government and society would have been different.

quote: As far as I know it was trade that sparked the civil war. Slavery was just used as a moral excuse for the north to attack.

Trade, AND SLAVERY, and fundamental political rivalry over control or subservience to the Federal government. Ol' Abe engaged in an incredible amount of manipulation and machinating to tweak the northern economy after succession - so much so that FDR looked lazy in comparison. Y'all had the Homestead Act of 1862, (which is why there's so many Krauts and Swedes from Wisoconsin through the Dakotas) the transcontinental railroad (impetus provided by the War of Yankee Agression), and increased transontinental migration, ongoing deficit spending and paper currency, and the largest single economic expansion in US history as a direct result of the war, and the loss of contribution of the slave-based southern economy.

Krazyhorse - Wrong. US troops fired on southern civilians on January 8, 1861, outside Fort Barrancas in Florida, more than three months before Fort Sumter. And Sumter was fired on because of an armed resupply mission which was untertaken while pretending to negotiate for a peaceful transition of the Fort to South Carolina control. That resupply mission was conjoined with an armed resupply, reinforcement, and beachhead establishment mission to Fort Pickens in Florida at the same time - Lincoln wanted the public attention on Sumter, while the more serious armed threat was delivered at Pickens. With the bad faith demonstrated by a fraudulent "negotiation," combined with the size of the Sumter "resupply" flotilla, and the known presence of the armed force to reinforce and expand from Pickens, the South responded by firing warning shots across the bows of the Yankee ships entering the sovereign state of South Carolina's port of Charleston. (and yes, South Carolina predated the United States, so it had a valid claim of sovereignty as an independent state)

The Yankees then responded to warning shots by firing directly at the Charleston harbor defenses.

So guess again, the Yankees started it.

	22-01-2002 08:35									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai In other words, the slavery museum should not whitewash the history of slavery just to make white or black people feel better. It should be controversial. It should make us think.

Easily the most intelligent thing said on this thread. Couldn't agree more.

As for Cali being a racist... I see a pattern from his posts too, but racist is awfully strong for it. The pattern I see is of another "angry young white male" who sees a pattern of discrimination and oppression against whites. Doesn't make him a racist. Just confused.

	22-01-2002 08:42									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The museum should mention how a few blacks sold other blacks and that a few blacks oppressed their own people,

Take out the words "a few" and I agree, but I would be very suprised if mention was made of this.

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai but it should also state that this in no way justifies nor minimizes the evils committed by whites against blacks.

Is it really necessary to say that? Arent people intelligent enough to draw that conclusion for themselves?

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai In other words, the slavery museum should not whitewash the history of slavery just to make white or black people feel better. It should be controversial. It should make us think.

I dont think controversy should be one of the goals of the museum. It should be accurate and truthful, and if that causes controversy so be it.

	22-01-2002 08:51									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Easily the most intelligent thing said on this thread. Couldn't agree more. As for Cali being a racist... I see a pattern from his posts too, but racist is awfully strong for it. The pattern I see is of another "angry young white male" who sees a pattern of discrimination and oppression against whites. Doesn't make him a racist. Just confused.

Im not confused, I know what I see.

You also have to realize that I am less tactful on the internet than I am in RL. I dont discuss these issues in the same way in person.

	22-01-2002 08:57									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Is it really necessary to say that? Arent people intelligent enough to draw that conclusion for themselves?

Unfortunately, for some people the answer is no.

	22-01-2002 09:09									#54
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Dont worry Cali, I too am among the millions of others who are agigitated with the modern day civil rights movement.


More of a "Special Rights" and "Reverse Discrimination" movement


I am glad more and more agree with me these days

	22-01-2002 09:29									#55
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Dont worry Cali, I too am among the millions of others who are agigitated with the modern day civil rights movement. More of a "Special Rights" and "Reverse Discrimination" movement I am glad more and more agree with me these days

Me too

	22-01-2002 10:25									#56
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I want you both to answer one question, right now.

Would you rather be black?

	22-01-2002 10:33									#57
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Sure,that way I can get promoted just for being black and not on my work credintials/prouctivity.


Or if Im a young black teen, I can sign up for college, get the govenment to pay for it, and get to start with 10 credits above all the other white/hispanic boofheads.


Or, I can rob conveniant stores and get a jury thrown out because I think they are racist.....then I get a leener sentence

Or, when all else fails,I can go to the NAACP and say someone discriminated against me, and file a frivolous lawsuit.


Sorry.....

	22-01-2002 10:36									#58
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Wow. Your ignorance of the realities of being black are astounding.

	22-01-2002 10:40									#59
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So your going to tell me Affirmitive action, Minority College grants, and Johhny Cochran are all part of my "Ignorance"

	22-01-2002 10:45									#60
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Damn straight, boy.