22-01-2002 22:34									#91
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber When does it end?

In a lot of the US, it has ended. Companies under strict quotas for either hiring or promotion have been nailed for past violations of equal opportunity laws.

Most private employers, and probably most public agencies (at least most in western states, I haven't done recent public agency work outside the western US) are simply under their own administrative policies to the effect that they won't illegally discriminate in employment or promotion.

Minority contracting preferences are on their way out, or are gone, in many cities and non-municipal government agencies. Outside of state agencies and municipal agencies (all sorts of water, utility, flood prevention, and similar public agencies in California and several other western states), minority contractor preference programs were almost non-existent in the first place.

	22-01-2002 22:42									#92
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Don't even get me started on Affirmative Action. Please.

	22-01-2002 22:53									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 The statement that being white gives you first class status by someone (to lazy to find out who) is to vile to contemplate, and is an insult beyound measure to asians, blacks, all the people of this earth. We are all the same. I was born white, and never recieved any special treatment, all I have I earned, nobody helped me or made it easy, nobody (not even my family, which was at borderline middle class, just above poverty, really) paid for my college, or got me work, or anything else. Those kind of statements feed the exact opposite of what is needed, that kind of statement tries to make a white man feel guilty for being born, pure bull.

I made the statement, and sadly, you misinterpreted it. Americans are the most blessed people on Earth, with incredible opportunity. White Americans most of all, because they don't have to put up with the bullshit that other Americans do on a daily basis. That was my point. To blame the oppressed minorities of this country for one's own personal shortcomings is impressively arrogant, lazy, and just plain sad. Obviously, this does not include you, as you've done no such thing. But others on this thread have.

	22-01-2002 22:55									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer I made the statement, and sadly, you misinterpreted it. Americans are the most blessed people on Earth, with incredible opportunity. White Americans most of all, because they don't have to put up with the bullshit that other Americans do on a daily basis. That was my point. To blame the oppressed minorities of this country for one's own personal shortcomings is impressively arrogant, lazy, and just plain sad. Obviously, this does not include you, as you've done no such thing. But others on this thread have.

My apologies Guy, if I misunderstood your intention.

	22-01-2002 23:01									#95
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 My apologies Guy, if I misunderstood your intention.

Bah, no sweat Chris. Common hazard of the forums. Awful easy to misinterpret someone if all you have is text.

	22-01-2002 23:24									#96
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 As for who started the war of Southern traitors, those who turned their backs on our nation and our flag called themselves Butternuts and Johhny Rebs, and they paid a price for thier betrayal of the country of their birth.

Yank, the countries of my ancestors birth were Virginia and Kentucky. Sovereign states who joined together with other sovereign states for certain mutually agreed upon aims.

We are a band of brothers, native to the soil,
fighting for our liberty with treasure, blood and toil...

quote: The "States rights" issue at the birth of the USA was a vile attempt to leave a back-door for slavery should the country ever turn against Slavery (as Franklin wanted), and we can all be thankful that this was stopped, as horible cost to both sides in that conflict.

State's rights transcended the issue of slavery - during the first American revolution, it took some time before you had broad cooperation between states, and delegations to the Continental Congress were always based on state affiliation, and generally relied upon the instructions of their state legislatures.

There was an intense distrust of any type of central government authority, courtesy of ol' George III and his henchmen on both sides of the Atlantic, and considerable reluctance to even join in a United States. The driving reason for forming the initial Confederation, if you will, (I know the other version of that word drives you crazy ) was the quite real fear of the imperial ambitions of the major European powers. That's why the original Articles of Confederation was little more than a limited mutual defense treaty with some mutual trade issues thrown in.

It was scrapped because it was too ineffective in meeting the mutual goals of the respective sovereign states, but there was no radical change of feeling between 1781 and 1787 - only a desire to improve the flaws of the Confederation model which led to an utterly paralyzed central government. (Note that we don't remember that national government for much of anything)

quote: Early America looked to the South for it's Army and it's politicians, what a horrible betrayal they attempted.

Yes, that usurpation of sovereign state authority by the Yankee government was a horrible betrayal of the sacred trust of 1787.

but now when northern treachery attempts our rights to mar,
we hoist on high the bonny blue flag that bears a single star

quote: As for other stuff, the gass-pumper is being silly, but in his idocy, he does bring up a valid point about college and credits and such. Everyone should be held to the same standard, if you lower it, your hurting the people your lowering it for, for you are telling them that they are inferior, and need help, which is bull.

Ideally, yes. The original intent of the college system was to make up for deliberately inferior schooling in predominantly "colored" districts. I grew up all over the south and west, but most of my time was spent in the deep south and Texas. As late as 1970 I went to an all-white public school (nice shiny new one, too) in the burbs east of Houston, Texas. When my parents moved into the area, the chirpy realtor twit with the bouffant hairdo explained how the new school system worked, and how we didn't have to worry about "intergration" because there were no "coloreds" living in the school district boundaries.

I didn't see a single non-white kid in school the first four grades. That was 15 years after the final Brown decision from the US Supreme Court.

quote: The statement that being white gives you first class status by someone (to lazy to find out who) is to vile to contemplate, and is an insult beyound measure to asians, blacks, all the people of this earth. We are all the same. I was born white, and never recieved any special treatment, all I have I earned, nobody helped me or made it easy, nobody (not even my family, which was at borderline middle class, just above poverty, really) paid for my college, or got me work, or anything else. Those kind of statements feed the exact opposite of what is needed, that kind of statement tries to make a white man feel guilty for being born, pure bull.

We are the same, but we ain't treated the same. The difference (and Chegitz said something along those lines too, but he's slipping from true commie to milquetoast liberal, or else he's tired as hell, because he missed a class struggle comment opportunity) is that poor whites get treated with about the same contempt as poor blacks and other minorities.

The pattern is real typical, right across the border in San Diego. There's a San Diego Unified School District, which is supposed to cover the whole city. There's also a bunch of unincorporated suburbs that make up most of the metropolitan area, but the highest-price of those suburbs are predominantly white and non-Filipino Asian. Those burbs all form their own school sub-districts, and get state funding to build big, fancy new schools, with all the best equipment, much more physical space, better facilities all around from athletics to chemistry labs.

Then you go back to the city schools, and gee, there isn't enough money to perform basic maintenance, let alone upgrade equipment or facilities. Funny thing is that those burbs are all unincorporated parts of the city - they have no municipal government at all, but the city government staff (not the Unified School District) sets up for them to be separately funded and have their own school boards, etc., even though they are technically part of the same district. They aren't all white, of couse - just 90-95%, while the old city schools range from 30% to 70% white. The dividing line is economic, not race, so poor and lower middle class whites end up in the same boat of inferior, underfunded and understaffed schools. But they've got better football teams.

	22-01-2002 23:31									#97
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Don't even get me started on Affirmative Action. Please.

I won't get you started on it, if you don't get me started on Texas' not so distant history of racism. I spent a good number of years growing up there, and my dad was there for many years both work (after I was born) and military service (before I was born)

	22-01-2002 23:47									#98
	Put an end to popups!

While I think that there is some remnants of Racism left, I think that affirmative action is past it's prime usefulness and that it should be eased out (racism and discrimination should as always be punished).

I think that the problems currently faced are much more social-economical (one of the reasons blacks struggle more than whites is that there are a higher percentage of poor blacks) and it would be better to hit the root of the problem (low social economic status) rather than the symptoms or side problems. Once less blacks are of a poor social economic status, they will be seen as succesful and racism will (slowly, but that is the only way it will go) die out.

Most social problems are at their roots social econimc ones and are in reality best seved with social economic responses.

Jon Miller

	22-01-2002 23:57									#99
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I won't get you started on it, if you don't get me started on Texas' not so distant history of racism. I spent a good number of years growing up there, and my dad was there for many years both work (after I was born) and military service (before I was born)

Oh, bullshit.
Read an analysis on Black's feelings on the South vs. the North.
If you're talking hispanics, well good gawd man, try to stem the tide of illegals.
There are numbers for a reason.

	23-01-2002 00:32									#100
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Chris,

quote: As for who started the war of Southern traitors, those who turned their backs on our nation and our flag called themselves Butternuts and Johhny Rebs, and they paid a price for thier betrayal of the country of their birth. The "States rights" issue at the birth of the USA was a vile attempt to leave a back-door for slavery should the country ever turn against Slavery (as Franklin wanted), and we can all be thankful that this was stopped, as horible cost to both sides in that conflict.

Secession is Constitutionally protected under the 10th Amendment. MtG's argument about sovereign states, while good, is not even necessary to argue for secession. Secession is not prohibited to the States, nor is the power to prevent secession granted to the federal government. Therefore, under the 10th Amendment, it is legal.

Further, you cannot call the CSA a nation of traitors, as they were not aiding and abetting the enemies of their nation - quite the opposite, as I recall - although a case could be made that any citizen of the CSA who assisted the US was a traitor. Once the southern States seceded, they ceased to be part of the USA. Remember that.

If you want to argue that might makes right, and the US was stronger, fine, you can make that argument. But don't make the argument that secession was illegal, and don't make the argument that anyone who did so was a traitor.

	23-01-2002 00:41									#101
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Secession is not prohibited to the States, nor is the power to prevent secession granted to the federal government.

I would argue that secession was/is merely a convenient term for rebellion which the US government is authorized to put down under the terms of the Constitution.

	23-01-2002 01:49									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

How would secession be defined as rebellion?

If you want to use that argument, then states have NO rights, ultimately - if the federal government decides it doesn't like a state's action, all it would have to do is claim rebellion.

For example, say that Texas passes an 18 year old drinking age. The federal government calls this an act of rebellion, and forces Texas to go back to 21. This is not Constitutional, because the setting of a drinking age is the power of individual states. But, by your argument, if the federal government doesn't like it, it's automatically rebellion. That doesn't fly.

	23-01-2002 02:04									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Further, you cannot call the CSA a nation of traitors

David, that's an inside joke between the Reb and me.

	23-01-2002 02:24									#104
	Got spare money?

Ah, OK

	23-01-2002 03:47									#105
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat We are the same, but we ain't treated the same. The difference (and Chegitz said something along those lines too, but he's slipping from true commie to milquetoast liberal, or else he's tired as hell, because he missed a class struggle comment opportunity) is that poor whites get treated with about the same contempt as poor blacks and other minorities.

See previous comment about actually having some work at work today. I figgered I could get to the class aspect later, but you seem to have done a good job.

I do agree with some of the posters here that racism is diminishing and class is responsible for a lot of what is considered racism. After all, since Black folks have a much smaller professional/managerial class and white folks have a much more visible professional/managerial class it is an easy mistake to look at the class oppresion that Black people suffer and attribute it to racism, especially since class oppression is the oppression that dare not speak its name in America. Officially we are all middle class and there is no class warfare and anyone who says otherwise is a dirty red un-American commie pinko faggot (that's me! ). White working class people get f*cked with, you get no argument from me. Sprayber had asked in an earlier thread, when I get disciminated against who do I complain to? That's a paraphrase. (You complain to the union.) . . . (What, you don't have a union? Well build one, dumbass! You can't fight the class war without your own army!)

Having acknowledged that, I think the combination of class and race is a multiple rather than simple addition. The Black and Hispanic working class is treated rather more harshly than either the Black and Hispanic professional/managerial classes or the white working class. Furthermore, racism serves a very effective function at separating the working class. White workers get pissed at Black workers about Affirmative Action when they get no help. Black workers get pissed at white workers for all the sh*t they have to put up with. And the white ruling class is laughing all the way to the bank.

	23-01-2002 04:02									#106
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Balconville by famed Montreal playwright David Fennario deals exactly with this issue...except with the French and English playing the roles of black and white.

It's also, as far as I know, the only bilingual play in regular production, and Fennario makes a habit of showing up at IS meetings, so he's cool with me.

	23-01-2002 04:09									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd If you want to use that argument, then states have NO rights, ultimately - if the federal government decides it doesn't like a state's action, all it would have to do is claim rebellion.

I'm starting to see that we are going to get into a game of semantics, if I don't get one thing out of the way before I answer this claim. How do you define the term rebellion/insurrection?

quote: For example, say that Texas passes an 18 year old drinking age. The federal government calls this an act of rebellion, and forces Texas to go back to 21.

I really don't understand what logical hoops you had to jump through in order to apply this example to me arguement.

1) The Federal government is Constitutionally barred from directly setting the drinking age within a State.

2) Opperating within the Constitution, the most the Federal government could legally do is to withhold a portion of thier highway monies.

3) Nothing in the Constitution gives the Federal government either explicit of implied authority to take such an action in the situation you describe anyway. Such is not the case with the case of the CSA.

	23-01-2002 04:11									#108
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Oh, bullshit. Read an analysis on Black's feelings on the South vs. the North. If you're talking hispanics, well good gawd man, try to stem the tide of illegals. There are numbers for a reason.

Naah, since this thread started about a slavery museum, I'm talking blacks.

You think everything was fine and dandy and AA just popped in there out of the blue? Perhaps caused by "outside agitators"

The whole south has made a hell of a lot of improvement, but a lot of the **** the south improved from was happening in the lifetimes of most adults who are around today.

And I've lived all over the US, from Washington state to Michigan, California to North Carolina, and a good portion of what's in between.

	23-01-2002 04:19									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm starting to see that we are going to get into a game of semantics, if I don't get one thing out of the way before I answer this claim. How do you define the term rebellion/insurrection?

I define it as an armed attempt to overthrow the Federal government, or an armed attempt to take over state government against the will of the people of the state. (This would exclude Dorr's rebellion, which is otherwise a wonderful demonstration of Federal acknowledgement of State sovereignty in upholding the only case of a state within the United States issuing a treason charge and convicting the accused for treason against the State of Rhode Island. And the best thing is that the state which was so concerned with it's sovereign rights was one of theirs.

Note that peacefully dissolving the bonds of association with other sovereign states does NOT constitute rebellion in my book, because the states seceding had no issue with other states choosing to remain associated with the Union, and we did not seek to impose our government on them.

	23-01-2002 08:10									#110
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Would you rather be black?

No.

	23-01-2002 08:27									#111
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia No.

Okay. And why is that?

	23-01-2002 08:29									#112
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Everyone has a right to x.

Right there is where you are completely wrong.

	23-01-2002 08:29									#113
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Okay. And why is that?

Im happy with who I am.

	23-01-2002 08:31									#114
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Im happy with who I am.

Damn. Way to dodge. Did you box in your youth?

	23-01-2002 09:01									#115
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Damn. Way to dodge. Did you box in your youth?

No, I dont like that so-called sport. Its barbaric.

	23-01-2002 09:04									#116
	Slavery museum Inflate your Upload Space

The Charles Wright Museum of African American History in Detroit is the largest African American historical museum in the world. Does this count?

maah-detroit.org/facts.html

	23-01-2002 09:07									#117
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I define it as an armed attempt to overthrow the Federal government, or an armed attempt to take over state government against the will of the people of the state.

Then most if not all of the States in the CSA, could be said to be in rebellion according to your definition as the slave population which did out number thier masters in some areas could not be resonablly said to agree to the formation whose primary reason for existance was the preservation of slavery.

	23-01-2002 09:38									#118
	Increase the size of your Attachments

We're talking about the Constitutional issue. They weren't legally people at the time, plus if they were treated as humans, and had had suffrage, they were still a minority.

The state governments held secession conventions, and the (white males) who were the only class of persons to have suffrage under state or Federal laws at that time, met to elect delegates to those conventions and empowered them to vote on the issue as the offical representatives of the people of the respective states.

The slave populations did outnumber their masters in some areas, but not across the whole of any state. And whether you want to or not, you have to stick with the suffrage laws of the time in talking about the legality of rebellion.

Besides, the point has been covered in past threads that only seven states had any reference to slavery as a cause of secession, while four others seceded and three declared neutrality in response to the unconstitutional demand for Federalized state troops to carry out Yankee agression in resolving a political dispute.

Hopefully you're less high-strung than Snowfire in discussing these matters. I think I nearly gave him a stroke once.

	23-01-2002 09:52									#119
	Re: Slavery museum Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by DetroitDave The Charles Wright Museum of African American History in Detroit is the largest African American historical museum in the world. Does this count? maah-detroit.org/facts.html

Important distinction: African American History and Slavery History are not the same thing...both include things that the other does not.

A museum of slave history or even American slavery history can and should include things outside of black slaves.

	23-01-2002 10:04									#120
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat We're talking about the Constitutional issue.

We're dressing up armed, organized resistance against a duly constituted government that hadn't and wouldn't have taken any agressive actions against the States and thier "peculiar institution" when the wave of secessions started as something romantic.

quote: They weren't legally people at the time, plus if they were treated as humans, and had had suffrage, they were still a minority.

These conditions aren't relevent to the definition you originally gave, MtG.

quote: And whether you want to or not, you have to stick with the suffrage laws of the time in talking about the legality of rebellion.

The legality of rebellion is and was already a settled Constitutional question. Now, the question of weather that rebellion was morally justified is another matter altogether and one in which I look foward to seeing your opinions on.

quote: Besides, the point has been covered in past threads that only seven states had any reference to slavery as a cause of secession, while four others seceded and three declared neutrality in response to the unconstitutional demand for Federalized state troops to carry out Yankee agression in resolving a political dispute.

The main reason for my contention that the preservation of the peculiar institution of slavery was of primary importance to the CSA is that had they freed thier slaves and then petitioned Great Britian for military aid we would likely wishing President Helms luck in his war against Al Qaeda today.

quote: Hopefully you're less high-strung than Snowfire in discussing these matters. I think I nearly gave him a stroke once.

You're talking to a born and brred MS boy. I actually hope you can prove me wrong on either the legality of or the justification for rebellion.