22-01-2002 06:32									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune So what is he supposed to do? Raze Firaxis?

No. Just garrison more troop than the population, pop rush a temple and hope for no culture flips.

	22-01-2002 09:46									#32
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 And by 'noise' we assume you mean complaints. And by complaints, we assume you don't want to hear them. And by not wanting to hear them, we assume you are doing a piss-poor job as the QA director.

Not wanting to hear the same compaint 57 times from the same person does not make one a poor QA director. Complaining once, politely, is feedback. Complaining 3 times, aggressively, is noise.
The noise is generated by a handful of people who are at best needy, at worst malevolent.

-Brian
"****gy speaks for me"

	22-01-2002 09:49									#33
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You miss the point: Why do people feel the need to say the same thing 57 times? Hmmm...

	22-01-2002 10:03									#34
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Maybe they all have very short memories and have forgotten that they've already said it 56 times.

	22-01-2002 10:42									#35
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Maybe they're retarded.

	22-01-2002 10:45									#36
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Yeah, that has to be it. Firaxis has been stellar in keeping us informed. Good point.

	22-01-2002 10:47									#37
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 And by 'noise' we assume you mean complaints.

Gee, I would have assumed he meant whines and personal attacks...

He has already read the complaints... most of the stuff being posted now is just the same stuff over and over again

	22-01-2002 10:54									#38
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Which gets back to my point: What could have caused these complaints to come over and over and over again? Easy: Firaxis didn't take care of the loose ends and simply let things fester. Hey, I personally don't care if Jeff wants to keep his nose among the people who are happy and ignore those who aren't.

It's his company. His paycheck.

	22-01-2002 11:19									#39
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Hey, I personally don't care if Jeff wants to keep his nose among the people who are happy and ignore those who aren't.

Nahhh... he only ignores the people that are insulting and the whiners...

	22-01-2002 11:22									#40
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I don't buy it. The General forum has a lot more than that going on. Of course, if he wants a pissing contest, a good number of people will be happy to give him one.

	22-01-2002 11:30									#41
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I don't buy it. The General forum has a lot more than that going on. Of course, if he wants a pissing contest, a good number of people will be happy to give him one.

Well I buy it
Sure, the General forum has a lot more going on it, some really good stuff... but it sure is tough to find

Oh... and I'm sure he isn't looking for pissing contest, especially not around here

	22-01-2002 11:31									#42
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My guess is that he actually does look in here quite often but hates to admit it.

	22-01-2002 11:34									#43
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 My guess is that he actually does look in here quite often but hates to admit it.

Well... something we can agree on

	22-01-2002 12:21									#44
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A bit OT, but what the heck.

I might be able to explain the Firaxian point of view. Or maybe not. It is my point of view.

I run a business. A computer business as a matter of fact (no, not software).

I make it a policy not to have anything to do with anyone who has been abusive to myself or, most especially, to my staff. These things (computers) are horrendously complex interactions of gadgets, whatzits and hot-dams. Frequently there are problems. We (at my shop) do everything we can to help people, but there are just some things that we cannot do under some circumstances. If someone is unhappy with that, OK, we understand. But, if they cross the line and attempt to bully us or browbeat us into doing something that we have said we can't. That's it. We're done. So long.

Yes, I practice this. Recently, someone came in to buy some what-not or other. The name was flagged. Our guy got me. I quickly reviewed the history. I approached the fellow and asked if he remembered me. He said yes. I said we were sorry, but we would be unable to sell him anything. I reminded him of a previous experience we had shared, pointed out that we did not feel we could live up to his expectations and explained that life is too short. The fellow looked a trifle stunned. Said OK. And left.

What does that have to do with Firaxis and these boards? More than some of you may think. They may be a business. They may need us, the public. But they are also people. They are people before they are anything else. I find it completely understandable that they would refuse to communicate in any way with some of the denizens of these boards. For some it may be forever. For others, maybe fruitful dialouge can begin again after a cooling off period. But, be that as it may, Firaxians are not slaves. They are under no legal or moral obligation to communicate with anybody in anyway. And they sure as heck cannot be blamed for refusing to communicate with people who have been abusive.

You don't like what they have to say, or the pace at which they say it? OK. Everyone is entitled. You decide to attempt to abuse and harass them until they bend to your will? Not OK. Not to them. Not to me.

And if it's your game to just cruise through and hurl the mud, then you're a troll and none of us owe you a thing.

Salve

	22-01-2002 12:30									#45
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I agree with you. The problem is, most of these 'issues' grew out of lack of preventative maintenance on Firaxis' part. Things like keeping to your own advertised schedule of updates on your own official board, for example, should be treated as important. Making some kind of reply in an open and professional manner addressing issues you KNOW the public is concerned about is NOT going above and beyond. Notice I said 'open and professional' not 'buried in some screwball thread with some pissy muttering about the noise in the General Forum tossed in to gratify your ego.'

It's common courtesy and sound business sense. The failures in this regard started the mud flinging, and if the place is dirty now, hey, don't blame the gamers. Sure, there will always be a few people who want nothing but trouble. But they are very very few.

However, diseases spread where the environment is ripe.

	22-01-2002 12:35									#46
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Unfortunately, you are right too.

A better job could have been done of managing things.

Unfortunately, again, no one at Firaxis seems tasked to that job. Maybe they didn't (and don't) see the need.

To live is to learn.

Salve

	22-01-2002 12:42									#47
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Yes, that seems to be the case. Frankly, and some people find this surprising, I wouldn't mind NO official website and NO interaction with the company whatsoever. While it would occasionally prove frustrating when you want feedback from the developer, at least (by definition) is builds NO expecations. Well, I suppose media hype could slice with its double-edged sword there regardless...

But as regards the day-to-day stuff, if I were Firaxis and couldn't task somebody to these duties, I wouldn't let my QA and Web guys simply do it from the hip. I'd say: "O.K., people. We don't have the resources to develop an on-line relationship with the public. Thus, we are going to have a super-clean but static Web page updated 'when possible' and we are going to focus instead on a super-clean release. Hey, that's what the public really wants anyway."

So I'm not on here asking Firaxis to stroke personal egos. As you say: Live and learn. I'm curious how Firaxis will handle its next game?

	22-01-2002 12:47									#48
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 So I'm not on here asking Firaxis to stroke personal egos. As you say: Live and learn. I'm curious how Firaxis will handle its next game?

Yes. Good question. Especially now that some knives appear to be out. Not a good hole to start from.

I think the more interesting question is how will they handle the current game? The game appears to be afoot, still. So we'll see.

Salve

	22-01-2002 12:54									#49
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Actually, the troubleshooting forum Firaxis had for SMAC was very useful. I even emailed Jeff one of my saved games concerning a problem and he helped me out (somewhat). Unfortunately, Jeff got burned out from all the bug reports. In that forum, most of the posts were respectful complaints of problems. The flaw was that there were few responses from Firaxis, and when they did respond it was the users fault (computer not compatable) or the famous "it's a feature" response.

Again, it's still a PR problem. Until Firaxis deals with this, they shouldn't have any communication with the community.

	22-01-2002 14:21									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Daveraver Actually... I heard they've all been holed up in an Oklahoma nuclear bunker, working day and night on Sid Meir's Golf...

Cool idea, Nuclear Golf........




Four!!! BOOM

	22-01-2002 14:23									#51
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quote: Originally posted by gnomos Cool idea, Nuclear Golf........ Four!!! BOOM

	22-01-2002 14:45									#52
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Firaxians are not slaves.

But they could be if you follow CT's idea:

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune So what is he supposed to do? Raze Firaxis?

	22-01-2002 15:26									#53
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quote: Personally, I'm spending most of my 'Poly time in the Strat and Creation forums. There's a lot less noise.

Okay, Bilas. You have your response now. Happy?

	22-01-2002 17:20									#54
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I agree with you. The problem is, most of these 'issues' grew out of lack of preventative maintenance on Firaxis' part.

With all due respect Yin, it has been my impression that you instigated the mud flinging, with your constant attacks before the game was even released!

I also agree with notyoueither...however I find it a bit Rich coming from you.

What is the point of complaining, I would suggest that it is to get something changed or fixed. That requires both parties communicating in an open and constructive manner (showing some degree of respect IMO) and therefore creating a form of constructive dialogue. The objective being a win:win result.

Your actions at that time were extremely counter productive to this aim.

	22-01-2002 17:52									#55
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What can I say? You must have been napping.

	22-01-2002 18:25									#56
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 What can I say? You must have been napping.

ha.

Actually my intention was never to register as a poster but remain the perpetual lurker.

Yin, you have the dubious honour ('dubious' for all those poor people who have to read my drivel) of being the main reason for my registration.

I think sometimes Yin, you start down a path that leads to the online forum equivalent of getting yourself into a spitting, roaring Righteous Rage . Which once you've calmed down from, you spend the rest of your time trying to justify.

So naturally people (being the helpful careing bunch that we are) like to point out where you've been going wrong.

	22-01-2002 18:43									#57
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Well, if I managed to get you to delurk, clearly Poly owes me big. Cheers!

	22-01-2002 18:46									#58
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Well, if I managed to get you to delurk, clearly Poly owes me big. Cheers!

Actually most people think Apolyton should Bar you for it!

	22-01-2002 21:53									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Th0mas Actually most people think Apolyton should Bar you for it!

Don't bar Yin. I rarely agree with him and some times I try to bait him, but I always enjoy his posts.

	22-01-2002 23:13									#60
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I can quite understand no Firaxian bothering to post here except to prove once a month that they are still listening. The attitude of some is so hostile there is simply no milage in it. Not posting on their own website is much poorer. A site that doesn't get an update worth reading per week (and no, I don't mean a news item about how many more runner-up prizes you got) isn't a site that is going to attract interest any more. A competition. A strategy tip per week. A new civ to download each month. A patch! Even the full list of civtrivia questions and answers would be a start.

If 1.16f is all we get until an expansion is announced then I think they will be very disappointed at the take-up rate. With no sign that Firaxis is working to improve the game for the customers I think few will be eager to shell out more cash. There are a lot of seemingly far more interesting games due out this year.