21-01-2003 12:48									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

On kinds of horses:
The huns should ride something like a mustang or pony.
Arabian horses are very very late, specially-bred individuals. I doubt the current pur-sangs (pure blood) or anything like them were ever used in warfare.
Chariots were drawn by small horses or ponies, early war horses were also ponies or mustangs, and it is only with agriculture and war-horse breeding that we got big destriers in the middle ages (which look more like a percheron than an Arabian).

In terms of bows, it could be worth noting that huns, mongols, and, generally speaking, all people inheriting these weapons from the steppes used composite bows (small, double curvature), whereas Europeans used single-curvature bows (slightly bigger, less efficient).

	22-01-2003 12:37									#62
	Got spare money?

OK, things looks like that "pony", along with its archer, need some general overhaul and possible remodeling. Yes, it's 3D mesh model, so modeling and texturing are 99% of the work, while actualy "drawing" is trivial.
In meantime, I created something resembling Roman trade ship, based on your references. I think it's ~50% complete; I need to retexture it (create some plank edges, for example; bump mapping would be nice, IMO) and add some details (ropes and small elements). I'm aware that 90% of details will be lost during downsampling, but this model may be used for some other works (various splash screens, info pages etc.) in the future.

Attachment: tradeship.png
This has been downloaded 137 time(s).

	22-01-2003 16:14									#63
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hi targon, the ship looks Great! Maybe we can use it in the Merchant interface when it gets going. Any idea how it would scale down to unit image size?

Gotta Run,

Mark

	22-01-2003 16:40									#64
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson Any idea how it would scale down to unit image size?

Here is the above picture after scaling down to 40x39 and "sharpening". Looks not particulary good, IMO. Suggestions:
- scale to a bit larger size
- trace after rendering and downsize vector image, then rasterize
- use more contrast colors
- tweak lighting
- touch up after downsampling. A little facelift sometimes does wonders.
And, BTW, this ship still isn't complete.

	23-01-2003 06:42									#65
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Thanks Targon! Its not great, but it looks better than I'd feared! If there is something you can do fast to make it look better small, it'd be great. I think at least short-term we're stuck with the existing spec.

	23-01-2003 12:12									#66
	Roman trade boat, work in progress Full PM-box? Change here!

OK, I've not a lot of spare time last day, so boat is now say, 55% complete. Namely, some bump mapping is available. I think that we'll need a bit more detailed model, with some ropes and small details, for use in the future. Then (I hope today) I'll downsample it to your favorite size and toy around a little so tile will be less atoganizing.
Here is a sample rendering of the current state: (see below)
P.S. I'll have enough time to do something with horse archer not until this weekend, I fear. Organics modeling is somewhat more time-consuming.

Attachment: tradeship_show.jpeg
This has been downloaded 124 time(s).

	23-01-2003 19:53									#67
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Looks Great Targon! And thanks for working on the horse archer too, I'm looking forward to it!

	24-01-2003 12:13									#68
	Roman trade boat, saga continues Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Here is the boat with some ropes added. I know that any mariner would kill me for amount of mistakes I've made, but I tried to grok the best I can from reference pictures posted above.

Attachment: tradeship_new.png
This has been downloaded 117 time(s).

	24-01-2003 12:16									#69
	Roman trade boat, sample tile Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

OK, now less funny stuff. I've rendered the above picture for 40x50 viewport with abusive antialiasing settings (33 oversampling iterations or so). Don't beat me.

Attachment: tradeship_tiny.png
This has been downloaded 115 time(s).

	24-01-2003 23:17									#70
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think both of them look quite good for this stage of development! I agree that the small one is rather washed out, but it is useable on a temporary basis even at this stage since its clearly a merchant vessel and is easily distinguished from the trireme.

Who cares what mariners think !

You can sharpen up the smaller one as practical. Another idea occurs to me that if you don't like doing that, we might get another artist to take the small images that you generate with the aggressive antialiasing and sharpen them up. Perhaps if we posted your excellent large boat and the small one in some of the creation forums and see if anyone is interested. That would free you to do the stuff you most enjoy! I'll wait to see what you want to do on this idea.

Good stuff!

	27-01-2003 12:23									#71
	Hun horse archer, work in progress Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

As usual, weekend proved to be somewhat less than it seemed to be, so Hun archer isn't complete. Some vital parts are still missing, while others need little overhaul. But I decided to post it anyway, so you couldn't think I'm so lazy...

Attachment: hun.jpeg
This has been downloaded 105 time(s).

	28-01-2003 07:41									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Lookin' good so far Targon!

I hope it will be a lot easier on you once you have the horseman done once to change him in various ways! I'm looking forward to seeing how the little one turns out also!

	28-01-2003 08:37									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Although the horse's gone bald, the model looks pretty nice.

	28-01-2003 12:41									#74
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

vovansim, hair rendering is one of the most painful things I know of. Just count all these darned hairs. They need to be self-shaded with light mapping in order to look any realistic, BTW. I'll include hairs anyway at some final stage, but I think that archer face and right hand (very interesting gesture, it's hard to capture) are primary targets, along with patchgrid alignment.

	28-01-2003 16:37									#75
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

BTW, can anyone give me a clue about harness type used by huns, especialy did they employ saddle and stirrups or not. I know that horse archery w/o stirrups isn't any pleasing thing, but...

	31-01-2003 12:07									#76
	Hun horse archer, another 1% progress Remove this text

I didn't have a lot of time this week, so model is still incomplete. At least, our Hun now doesn't look like he was hastly welcomed by some legioner...

Attachment: hun.jpeg
This has been downloaded 89 time(s).

	31-01-2003 18:46									#77
	Re: Hun horse archer, another 1% progress Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by targon At least, our Hun now doesn't look like he was hastly welcomed by some legioner...

LOL!

	04-02-2003 12:02									#78
	Hun horse archer, near complete(?) Got spare money?

Now, our Hun looks almost like human (I hope), all major parts are implemented. There is still a room for improvement, especialy for his face and right hand. With much pain and waste of lots of computer time, I've got something resembling normal hair and fur.

Attachment: hun.jpeg
This has been downloaded 76 time(s).

	05-02-2003 07:36									#79
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Hi Targon, looks cool. I think if its not too much trouble the hand that is on the bowstring should be closer to the shoulder to make the bow look more drawn.

We could use the small version of those images even now, when you're ready with them. If you don't want to do all the little mods on the small images I just heard from a guy tonight who might be willing to take the last step with them.

Cya,

Mark

	05-02-2003 09:25									#80
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Very nice, targon...

Though now, the hand with which the guy is pulling on the bow-string does not seem too natural. There are two reasons:

1) The hand is kind of relaxed. It doesn't seem as if he is pulling. The elbow needs to be more drawn back and lifted. If you have the arm and the arrow lie in the same horizontal plane, it would look much more natural.

2) The arrow is parallel to the arm, in which the guy is holding the bow itself. Again, it creates the illusion that he is not really pulling on the bowstring. The arrow needs to be on the same line as the lower arm - between the elbow and the hand.

I know, I am too picky...

EDIT: Hmmm... Just read Mark's post more carefully. It seems he is basically saying the same thing.

	05-02-2003 13:24									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

vovansim,
You aren't any picky, you're completely right. Posing isn't any easer than modeling or texturing. I also need to fix his hair somehow.

	05-02-2003 15:42									#82
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

A long time ago, someone was writing about getting permission to use some of the existing game mod images, like the HiRes graphics patch for Civ2, that are on Apolyton.

I need a lot of images to test out expensions of the tech tree. I know they are not exactly the right size, but it would be better than anything I would draw.

Did we ever get permission to use any of them? Most of them say that they can be distributed and used freely, but only if no money is charged, so since we are not a GPL project we would need the creator´s premission.

Come to think if it, is there anything in the code that requires 40x80 tiles? What would happen if all the images were a different size?

	05-02-2003 19:58									#83
	Got spare money?

BTW, what kind of images you need? If it doesn't requre extensive organics modeling, they may be created rather quicky.

	05-02-2003 21:34									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What I need is, unfortunately, mostly people. I have created the following units, but have not been able to add them to the tech tree due to lack of pictures:

Scout
Cavalry Scout
Horse Archer
Cataphract

I also need a better wood wall; the one I drew is pretty ugly, as well as a simple stone wall and a really good stone wall. I would also like battering ram as the first siege weapon.

In the log term, we basically need everything that Civ2 has, plus a lot that they don´t. That is why the current graphics patches would be so useful.

	06-02-2003 01:49									#85
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The tiles can be any size, they will be scaled.
There are several siege weapon images already, though no ram (ballista, catapult and trebuchet). Note there are 2 archer images, so you may use one as a scout.

	06-02-2003 14:49									#86
	Inflate your Upload Space

I have already used every single unit image in the tiles folder, except MarionLegion which IMO is too ugly to use and Trebuchet which is too high tech for these scenarios. There are already two different types of archer units and three different siege weapons in my file.

Once the unit obsolescence is fixed, I will have the capability to expand the tech tree and military units into a whole-history game. The lack of images and the size of the power circle are the only barriers. Can events change the power circle size? If so that is not a problem either, since I can easily have technology shrink the circles as the game progresses.

On a related note, can we put an option to get rid of the minimum size of the power circle?

	06-02-2003 22:18									#87
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Richard Bruns I have already used every single unit image in the tiles folder, except MarionLegion which IMO is too ugly to use and Trebuchet which is too high tech for these scenarios. There are already two different types of archer units and three different siege weapons in my file.

AFAIK there is no reason why, temporarily, you can't use the same image for two distinct unit types. BTW a new artist has shown up willing to work, and I pointed him here to take a stab at your requests.

quote: On a related note, can we put an option to get rid of the minimum size of the power circle?

Smaller PC sized looked really odd in original playtesting. Why is that crucial? I guess we can make the min size settable in the xml and that way it could be set to 0 if you desire.

	07-02-2003 10:08									#88
	Targon.. you are a god! Full PM-box? Change here!

I humbly bow before you, oh master of graphical rendering.. *bows* My pathetic attempts at making units have, shall we say, very ugly results. Your historical accuracy just makes me ask 'why so much trouble,' but looking at the results, I can tell this game will be freggin' awesome with people like you working on it. I'll do my best, and hope thats enough but damn... Yes yes I'm the new guy, and my stuff will pale in comparison.

-Tyler

I cant seem to get it to upload my image so Ill link later... after my website is respectable enough to be seen.

	07-02-2003 11:55									#89
	Re: Targon.. you are a god! Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by xxjiggawhoxx I humbly bow before you, oh master of graphical rendering.. *bows*

	07-02-2003 13:36									#90
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Mark_Everson AFAIK there is no reason why, temporarily, you can't use the same image for two distinct unit types. BTW a new artist has shown up willing to work, and I pointed him here to take a stab at your requests.

I am trying to standardize things so that players know exactly what a unit is when they see it on the map. IMO a picture should always be associated with a single set of stats unless the scenario explicitly states otherwise.

quote: Smaller PC sized looked really odd in original playtesting. Why is that crucial? I guess we can make the min size settable in the xml and that way it could be set to 0 if you desire.

It isn´t crucial, I just think that the current minimum size is too big. It is annoying to have to test five or six difeferent power circle multipliers for each scenario just to make sure that the smallest unit has a power circle no smaller than the minimum power circle size.